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Regarding dramas and site/staff complaints.

There are way too many posts for me to get track of them. o_o; I'm just going to answer the questions the best way I can.

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1. What do you think of the staff team?

It seems to be running smoothly, but they're not the perfect team either. For example, I don't recall seeing an administrator complaining to staff members' attitude in public sight or a staff member taking part on drama with the old staff team. It seems some of the new staffs are rather new on their tasks, and they still need to learn how to hold being a staff member better, as in, sharing their oppinions with eachother to avoid conflicts between themselves, and take the best final decision in each case. But this knowledge may come with time.

Regarding resources moderation, it's running pretty faster than before, but there are many moderators who barely moderate anything; in the hacks section for example, there are 13 currently, of which I see about half moderating a hack with a good frequence. Some of them have other tasks, but some don't. The music moderation is the best example for showing this problem, because there I basically see only two to three moderators out of five working.

Though I shouldn't consider "lazy staff" as a blamabble thing, in part because they're not too much of a problem for the site right now - there are not 30 files to be moderated -, and also because I'm not the best person to complain about it - there are chances they're working on stuff behind the scenes.

In general, I'm pretty satisfied with the new staff, except there are a few that don't seem to do much for it, but I can't tell that with certainity (see the previous paragraph).

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2. Is there anything you don't like about the staff?

Not anything that would affect the site directly. The thing I dislike the most is when one says "other staff members have the ability to reopen it, but I strongly recommend cutting off the discussion here". Tatanga is an awesome staff member, but the point there is that I think staff should think the same way when it comes to take decisions. By that I mean I think there should be a common sense between all the staff members, which would be a result of effortful discussion. If there are no conflicts between the staff, then it would be easier to stop conflicts with the regular userbase.

Another example of that can be found if I go back to Dipalon's tool contest idea. The thread was closed by Masterlink, but it got reopened shortly by Torchkas (or by aj, I'm not sure). Conflicts between staff oppinions don't bring a good impression regarding the staff team. I think the team should argue about what to do in the staff forums and only act when they come to a conscient decision, because after all that's what the staff forums were made for.

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3. If you could change anything about the staff, how would you make it to be?

Then again, I don't know what happens behind the scenes; so I can't tell if a staff member is being useful or not, or if they seem to be taking bad decisions but they're actually well-discussed. I'd leave that one to the staff team, because after all they're the ones who know the best way how goodly or badly the staff team is running.
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So why the empty numb?
Originally posted by Koopster
Another example of that can be found if I go back to Dipalon's tool contest idea. The thread was closed by Masterlink, but it got reopened shortly by Torchkas (or by aj, I'm not sure). Conflicts between staff oppinions don't bring a good impression regarding the staff team. I think the team should argue about what to do in the staff forums and only act when they come to a conscient decision, because after all that's what the staff forums were made for.


Absolutely. This is an issue we're fully aware of whenever we make actions or decisions. However, there is a balance we must make between collaborating so that there aren't the problems you discuss about how we come across, and knowing when to use our own personal judgements and being able to take action instead of languishing while waiting for responses.

Indeed, somewhere in this thread (I really don't care to look), someone else was saying that we take too long to make decisions, and often staff discussions will just go nowhere because no one actually takes action.

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Originally posted by Koopster
Another example of that can be found if I go back to Dipalon's tool contest idea. The thread was closed by Masterlink, but it got reopened shortly by Torchkas (or by aj, I'm not sure). Conflicts between staff oppinions don't bring a good impression regarding the staff team.

Masterlink closed the thread temporarily because the ammount of flaming posts didn't stop; the thread was meant to be reopened by Aj when he came back. Torchkas just made a post in between while the thread was closed.
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@Ultimaximus: You mention that sometimes the staff take too long to make decisions. I remember this being a problem when I was on staff. I have a few possible explanations.

- There are now about 40 staff members, all of whom want to be heard (some more than others) and want to defend their points when disagreed with (again, some more than others). This lengthens discussion.

- Administrator confusion. There are three Administrators, but two of them always need to defer to Kieran on pretty much every decision. And Kieran tends to take a long time to make decisions (sometimes because he's being thorough in considering things, mostly because he's lazy). Also the fact that AJ is trying to communicate with people in a totally different timezone makes things more difficult.

- Forgetfulness. It's easy to forget about a past thing the staff was discussing when two other things have come up, both of them having equally long discussions.

- Finally (and I hate to say it but here goes): Staff laziness. Yes I mentioned it before. As soon as someone gets the staff position he's been after for so long, he suddnely gets this super-busy life that prevents him from helping with some project or completing some task. It's like clockwork. Staff that are dragging their heels and slowing everyone else down should be removed for the benefit of the team.
Oh noes, now everybody is now arguing about crap and flames, ahhhhhhh

Okay, why don't you guys calm down... I don't like reading this crap.
I used to come here very often in 2008. lol
I have a new account because I forgot my old account's password lol.
My website is at https://sites.google.com/site/awertyb/ please enjoy it. I'm working on a new hack :-)
Originally posted by uyjulian
Oh noes, now everybody is now arguing about crap and flames, ahhhhhhh

Okay, why don't you guys calm down... I don't like reading this crap.

Then don't? Nobody is really arguing over here, except for the moment where Dipalon posted and attempted to start drama. Before and after that, there was and there is no drama and no flaming at all; we've been calmly discussing this situation.
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Originally posted by uyjulian
Oh noes, now everybody is now arguing about crap and flames, ahhhhhhh

Okay, why don't you guys calm down... I don't like reading this crap.


You know, between you and Dipalon, I can't take this thread seriously anymore.
I think it's best that we all do, however. It would not reflect well upon us for having to close a thread seeking a civil discussion about site drama and staff complaints due to drama in that very thread.

World Community Grid: Thread | Team
 
So someone should have deleted Dipalon's and uyjulian's posts. Since I know the staff is following this thread pretty closely, someone should have looked at the posts, thought, "Gee, maybe that's going to cause some degree of drama!" and then removed them before they did. Or, if the staff was a hair too late, they should have deleted Dipalon's post and all the direct replies it got with a generic "Back on track" post.

And we come full circle to a point I made earlier: the staff should take more preemptive action to lessen drama before it becomes more drama. If a staff member goes into a serious thread and sees some dumbfuck making a stupid/dramatic post, removing that post and deleting the thread is far less dramatic than waiting until six people reply and then closing the thread and issuing bans.

Yes the staff can't watch every thread all the time and catch all drama before it happens, so this post refers to staff who catch a drama-inducing post when it happens.

And please spare me the "Well we should discuss problem posts with the staff to determine if they are truly dramatic" argument. When it comes to a post like Dipalon's, a monkey could see it turning into a problem.
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With the recent posts in here, especially with what Koopster posted, I see a bit of the main problem now. I take some of my last post back.

I agree that those previous posts causing derailment should have been deleted or edited. I also think that those messages posted between the staff should have been kept to PMs or out of public. It further stains what people see. Staff will never fully agree with each other. It is human nature - we're all different. However, doing so in the manner of the post Koopster linked should be unacceptable.


And I really think that this "distance" that keeps being brought up would be solved with the idea I brought up in my other post.
Originally posted by Scrydan
What if there was a subforum off of Site Questions that was dedicated to questions towards staff (not towards the site) and if a staff member wanted, they could post a "Ask X staff member" thread for themselves and members could ask them questions. There would have to be rules in place obviously over what they are allowed to answer but it could be fun. I think if members could get to know each staff member better, they might learn some things otherwise not known.

But again, it is probably not going to happen. A Staff Questions forum would be interesting. And perhaps maybe another place to post threads that only its user and staff can see instead of PMing a staff member. (That last one would probably be hard for staff to navigate, lol)

You know what also doesn't help? Is when us the users reply to the person obviously trying to be dumb and cause the drama to drag on. Sure staff can delete the post or close the threads they feel will turn into drama but with the amount of staff compare to how big the site is, I'm sure its not easy to catch everything right away. So the times when the staff doesn't catch the drama right away, we can do our part as well and not feed into it. (Or report to a staff or something.)

Just a suggestion.

Also yeah, if we can't have a drama less thread in this thread of all places, then that's really nobodies fault but ours.
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We generally reserve post-deletion only for the most serious offenses, such as spam, pornography, shock images, and so on. Of course, that policy is worthy of being discussed, perhaps, but I'm just throwing that out there.

World Community Grid: Thread | Team
 
I honestly don't believe in post deletion. Not only is it open to abuse (which is a pretty flimsy argument by itself), it makes scrubbing away bad things all too easy. If someone had just deleted Yanama's post once it was discovered that he was jerking us, then none of us would have any recollection of the event and we wouldn't be wary of similar future events.
Deleted posts get sent to a thread you guys can't see. If the staff deleted Dilopowhatever his name is' posts instead of allowing people to reply to it, the thread wouldn't have derailed and we'd still be talking about the issue at hand rather than ... well, this. I'd probably still be arguing about the whole disconnection between staff and users but it feels like that topic is done.

It'd be nice for staff to discuss their policy on this. Keeping posts in tact for people to make a big deal out of rather than weed it out and let people do their thing without it distracting them is always the better option.

In reply to Camerin, though, since I know it sucks being ignored:

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Blumiere, I think that you are judging the staff based on a schema of how this site should operate - a schema you developed back a few years ago, when the site was substantially smaller than it is. Back when there were barely 4000 registered users, everyone did know each other better, and the staff was more intertwined with the userbase.

Honestly, the active userbase has never fluctuated more than a few hundred people a year. When I was still active here it was nearly at 2000 and Kieran predicted more to come, but disinterest in SMW hacking took its toll on the activity of this place and we never reached any higher. When I first became staff and during my first half of being here I'm sure the active userbase was the same as it was now.

I don't think it's me preaching about the good old days but failing to distinguish between the different userbase from then and now. I think it's a legitimate lack of care the staff, or at least the active ones, has for its userbase beyond a professional level. It's cool to be friends with each other, but it's better to be friends with your users.
Originally posted by Ultimaximus
We generally reserve post-deletion only for the most serious offenses, such as spam, pornography, shock images, and so on. Of course, that policy is worthy of being discussed, perhaps, but I'm just throwing that out there.


Think flexibly. Kieran has told the staff on multiple occasions that they have the power to use their discretion when the time calls. There's no point in the staff discussiing this policy because all it will lead to is most staff saying, "I agree with the current policy, but I think we should be able to make judgement calls on deletiing posts," to which Kieran will reply, "You already can."

Originally posted by Egadd
I honestly don't believe in post deletion. Not only is it open to abuse (which is a pretty flimsy argument by itself), it makes scrubbing away bad things all too easy. If someone had just deleted Yanama's post once it was discovered that he was jerking us, then none of us would have any recollection of the event and we wouldn't be wary of similar future events.


And how is that a bad thing? Are you saying you think the user base should be able to take revenge on someone who does something like Yanama? If so, then you are supporting drama and have discredited anything else you have said here. If not, then explain why you think it is so bad that users have no idea of certain situations that could have exploded into drama. I can name at least three situations of that nature that no non-staff member has a clue even happened.

Originally posted by Blumiere
I don't think it's me preaching about the good old days but failing to distinguish between the different userbase from then and now. I think it's a legitimate lack of care the staff, or at least the active ones, has for its userbase beyond a professional level. It's cool to be friends with each other, but it's better to be friends with your users.


And this would be excellent in an ideal situation, but that's never the case. As I said before, I think most of the staff is doing a fairly good job at interacting with and caring about the users, all things considered. I do think that there are some staff members who are unfeeling robots who should try running emotions.exe once in a while, but, again, that's only a few in a group of nearly 40.
Originally posted by Camerin
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Originally posted by Egadd
I honestly don't believe in post deletion. Not only is it open to abuse (which is a pretty flimsy argument by itself), it makes scrubbing away bad things all too easy. If someone had just deleted Yanama's post once it was discovered that he was jerking us, then none of us would have any recollection of the event and we wouldn't be wary of similar future events.


And how is that a bad thing? Are you saying you think the user base should be able to take revenge on someone who does something like Yanama? If so, then you are supporting drama and have discredited anything else you have said here. If not, then explain why you think it is so bad that users have no idea of certain situations that could have exploded into drama. I can name at least three situations of that nature that no non-staff member has a clue even happened.

No, his point is that if they had deleted his post, a lot of people might not have known it was a fake, and thus if someone did that again, they'd probably believe it instantly instead of being skeptical. He's not saying he supports drama and revenge at all.
<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money
Originally posted by Riolu180
No, his point is that if they had deleted his post, a lot of people might not have known it was a fake, and thus if someone did that again, they'd probably believe it instantly instead of being skeptical. He's not saying he supports drama and revenge at all.


I don't even remotely understand the point you are trying to make (feel free to clarify via PM, if you feel more comfortable doing it there). If users had no idea Dipalon had even posted anything in this thread, there would have been no mention of him, and this discussion would have gone on rather differently. And I'm pretty sure that any post like Dipalon's will raise skepticism; who the Hell is going to "instantly believe" a post full of backward arguments and badly-placed meme images?

As a former staff member, you should know all about terminating dramatic situations before they happen and taking closed-door actions to make this site as peaceful as possible.

Look at Slash Man's leaving post. If the staff had been more on-the-ball about that whole situation, it could have been handled much more quickly and efficiently than it was. At least Tatanga had the good sense to close the thread when he did, else it would have gone on for ages while everyone took their shot at Slash.
The point here is that people would trust people saying that they are dying of leukemia like they showed before.
Not that I agree with the point made here. I think if every kind of drama was deleted instantly, normal users wouldn't need to know what is drama and what isn't anymore.
However, I don't think that's a good solution to this problem, either.
With Yanama I think it's a special case, considering the amount of attention his thread had before the truth was reveal. Even some big LPers were playing his hack. I think it's more that we should remember what happened with Yanama since the drama went outside of smwc, and we don't want history to repeat itself.

That being said, I agree that both staff and users should make an effort to delete posts that do nothing more than cause drama and to not help continue the drama, respectively.
I've only skimmed the last few posts on this thread when I made the decision to reply, but I would like to say I do not agree with 'pre-emptive' action unless it's an emergency like someone finding a dangerous exploit in the site with intent to abuse. We simply cannot accurately predict the action of any one person all the time, and sometimes things we do surprise even ourselves.

There's a lot a regular user -- including you, the reader -- can do to lessen drama, and it all starts with self-restraint. If you see something that looks like trouble, don't take it upon yourself to "correct" a person or fight back. Just PM a staff member and either retain silence for the discussion or only reply to those posting peacefully or points from the "offending party" you can respond to neutrally. This way, we're not all bouncing back and forth with heated arguments. Being open to the administrators about moderators you feel are troubling you or slacking without making a big deal about it is effective if you can give substantive evidence to back up your claim. The three admins are friendly if you don't approach them with a strong sense of anger.

When something shocking like Yanama comes along, I think we ought to keep in the back of our heads that it can go either way -- be open to the thought that it's true or false, offer sympathies, but don't hold them so personally because you'd be setting yourself up to be trolled hard. At worst, we should feel disappointed that we were lied to, and give a fair warning or a ban for trolling, but we don't need to be angry or do revenge deletions of works. Sure, we like to be right, but it's only the kindest and most reasonable route. We'd be a better community for it. We can't really influence what he does outside of SMWC (it spread a lot because of the LPs he got people on YouTube to do) but we can control ourselves and lessen the negative impact he or anyone else has here.

If drama is ignored, drama ends. We all need to practice it a little more and others will follow the example, especially if the staff themselves refrain from getting involved in arguments publically with a clear non-neutral stance.

I believe censorship should be reserved for the most terrible things, like malware, scams, credit card info, shock images, or genitalia being posted in the open, like the current policy is.

Edit: I wanted to also add that for example, if we agree to disagree with Dipalon without fighting back, maybe the problem won't escalate. Maybe the problem will even go away. Of course, that's just optimism from my end.

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