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Mario Maker. What are people's thoughts?

Originally posted by K3fka
I don't know that that's a bad thing, either. Pretty much every level I've seen so far has been terrible, to be honest.


We must have seen very different levels then. I have seen quite a lot of amazing levels by now already. Like, the level were you have to avoid the mushrooms, Gamexplain's Shoot 'em Up level, ProJared's automatic level, multiple Metroid-styled levels and many more. Of course I've also seen some terrible levels, but those were usually rather short and empty so that you could be done with them rather quickly. Of course this also depends on what mode you've been watching. If you've been watching a 10-/100-Mario challenge, then bad levels are of course somewhat likely to appear, since those modes (I suppose) just pick any random level that matches the difficulty you picked, whether it's a good level or not. But even in those modes I've actually seen a lot of amazing levels.
Feel free to visit my website/blog - it's updated rarely, but it looks pretty cool!
Terrible levels are part of the fun anyway. You hit "play random shit" and seeing the crap that comes up makes the good stuff special.
Yes, I've mostly seen the challenge levels
Originally posted by Error 52
Terrible levels are part of the fun anyway. You hit "play random shit" and seeing the crap that comes up makes the good stuff special.

As a connoisseur of bad mario levels and bad mario contests, I can tell you right now that, no, the sea of crap does not make the diamonds in the rough any special.

Maybe as a justification for wasting your time sifting through the crap and a sense of accomplishment that you got something out of a hopeless task. Maybe. Or maybe it's just better to go to the diamond store.

Originally posted by K3fka
I don't know that that's a bad thing, either. Pretty much every level I've seen so far has been terrible, to be honest.

I'd like to say you just haven't seen the good ones but, I haven't seen the good ones. I've seen competent ones if that's worth anything.

Originally posted by RPG Hacker
I have seen quite a lot of amazing levels by now already. Like, the level were you have to avoid the mushrooms, Gamexplain's Shoot 'em Up level, ProJared's automatic level, multiple Metroid-styled levels and many more.

Can you really call the levels that go out of their way to not be a mario level good mario levels?

This is what I'm afraid of: people trying to make things out of the mario toolset that it wasn't originally made for, and getting nothing but clunky imitations. You know, like marios romhacking in general. I'm not talking about the few that deviate. I'm expecting a flood of non-mario levels (I guess that's a term to use.) and, due to the high demand of these sorts of levels, all of them being bad.

I want to like the metroid levels but death is costly and the level type can very, very quickly turn into a slog.
Originally posted by DarkMatt
Can you really call the levels that go out of their way to not be a mario level good mario levels?


Absolutely. The thing is this: The Mario games, which I consider the best Mario games so far, are usually the games which tried something new and did something quite different from their predecessors. For example: Super Mario World for adding a rather open world and allowing you to break the game with the cape, Super Mario 64 for having a hub world and a very different overall game flow, Super Mario Galaxy for having all the funny gimmicks (like gravity) and crazy, weird galaxies, Super Mario 3D World for the multiplayer etc. The Mario games, which did everything just like their predecessors - in other words: "did everything like a Mario game" - were usually the ones I enjoyed the least. Like the whole NSMB series. They just make you feel like you were playing the same game four times.

In my opinion, the whole point of a Mario game is to try something new and, well, try "not to be like any Mario game", if that makes any sense to you. To put this into context: When they've shown the first trailers of Super Mario Maker, they've only shown basic Mario elements + enemy stacking. The maker at this point was barely different from SMB1, but at this point I considered it rather boring and wasn't all that hyped. I thought something like "looks cool", but that was it. It wasn't until the Nintendo World Championships, where they've shown a whole bunch of new elements and level design possibilities, that I got absolutely hyped by the game. This is the feeling the game should convey in my opinion.

If this is too theoretical for you, just don't think of Super Mario Maker as a Mario game (because that's really not what it is at all). Just think of it as a powerful and intuititve level design tool that just happens to feature Mario characters and elements. I don't think the levels have to "feel like Mario" at all, I think everything goes as long as it's fun. And anyways, just because something hasn't been in a Mario game yet doesn't mean it "doesn't feel like Mario". The "don't do shrooms" level for example. That hasn't been done in a Mario game yet, but I see that absolutely fitting into a hypothetical official Mario level. I still feel the Mario essence in it.

Something like "only Mario levels" would be impossible to enforce, anyways. I mean, how would you do that? Make official guidelines, stating something like "any level submitted must feel like a Mario level"? And how would you determine that? I think that wouldn't be practicable. The only thing you could do to enforce "Mario levels" would be to severly limit the possibilites of the level design tool, but what would be the fun with that?

On top of that, I don't even think this is solely a Mario Maker thing. I think pretty much any level design tool included in a game that gives the player a lot of possibilities leads to players making levels that don't feel like they were officially from that same game. In fact, Lunar Magic is the exact same thing. There are a lot of hacks that don't feel like an official Mario game, yet I still usually get a lot of enjoyment out of these. Like my favorite hack, TSRPR. It still has elements of a Mario game, yet is also different in many ways. Some more backstory, some well-hidden and fun secrets and a very different musical style. I love that hack, even though it doesn't really feel like SMW at all.

TL;DR: I really don't think having "levels that are unlike official Mario levels" is something wrong. I personally enjoy it this way.

Originally posted by DarkMatt
I want to like the metroid levels but death is costly and the level type can very, very quickly turn into a slog.


This I can agree with, although mostly for the one reason that the game doesn't feature checkpoints. A major oversight in my opinion. Checkpoints shouldn't really be too complex for a level designer to handle, yet having them would make harder levels a lot more reasonable and fun and would make it easy to balance your levels. Plus, they could give 1-UPs a meaning outside of 100-Mario challenges.
Feel free to visit my website/blog - it's updated rarely, but it looks pretty cool!
Originally posted by RPG Hacker
Absolutely.

Oh you wanna word off? We can word off.

Nintendo official seal of quality Marios are games with the power in their hands. The limits aren't there. For games like the New Mario series the power isn't there, the formula is the same, and all that keeps it fresh are new level gimmicks and a new powerup. Authors in Mario Maker are going to be in the same boat, but they won't even get the luxury of keeping levels fresh with new gimmicks. (Assuming that, we don't get DLC. Which honestly, it's in the air whether Nintendo will stick their other foot into the DLC pool.)

I can see what you're trying to say but innovation does not directly equal entertainment. The problem with abnormal mario maker levels is that they aren't actually innovative. They cross something they've seen before in a new medium--this editor--and, as alluded before, it takes more than just creating a level that makes the author feel like he's playing what he based his level off of. In this case, Metroid or SHMUPs.

There's a lot of potential for mashing stuff together in Mario Maker, and I didn't mean to say, "levels that aren't marios is bad". I meant to say that doing something as ambitious as dressing up a Metroid level in a Mario engine is a far more taxing endeavor than throwing gimmicks at a stage and seeing what sticks. This editor does take amazing steps to assure you can just build whatever, but in the pursuit of wanting to entertain others, not just clang marios together, it's not as easy as 1-2-9 to throw a curveball and make it a real experience.

As for the "Don't Do Shrooms" level, I dunno if I want to compare that to Metroid levels because Don't Do Shrooms sticks with Mario norms. It's when you get into the serious problems like the one you acknowledged in Metroid levels that you start to drift out of the atmosphere of Mario Maker and into orbit. Unlike what Galaxy would imply, this is a bad thing to have your cool idea visibly forget which planet it's on. Metroid levels can probably tone down and refine the branching and time to fit on planet Mario just fine. I think it's 100% possible. This, however, takes a greater level of forethought and consideration than what Mario Maker is appealing towards. Hence my concern.
Originally posted by DarkMatt

As a connoisseur of bad mario levels and bad mario contests, I can tell you right now that, no, the sea of crap does not make the diamonds in the rough any special.

Maybe as a justification for wasting your time sifting through the crap and a sense of accomplishment that you got something out of a hopeless task. Maybe. Or maybe it's just better to go to the diamond store.


It's different when you're jumping around levels all the time and can change them whenever you feel like it. I've been browsing itch.io over the past week using the randomiser, and let me tell you, i've played a lot of shitty games over the past week. But that's what's fun about it!
Originally posted by DarkMatt
Oh you wanna word off? We can word off.


Nah, not at all. Just trying to explain why I actually consider these levels great. Not trying to degrade your opinion in any way or anything like that.

Originally posted by DarkMatt
Unlike what Galaxy would imply, this is a bad thing to have your cool idea visibly forget which planet it's on.


I technically agree to you, although all the levels I've seen so far still worked quite well in my opinion. Yeah, they were quite punishing for deaths, but most of those were easy enough that you wouldn't die too easily. And from what I've seen, the people DID enjoy these levels, which is what counts. If people don't enjoy certain levels, they just don't star them and the levels are then less likely to pop up anywhere in the online listings. Plus, people who make good levels and get many stars get their maximum number of levels they can upload increased. This means that, as long as they actually keep uploading levels, there will potentially be more good than bad levels online, because while people who make bad levels can only upload up to ten levels, people who make good levels can upload up to around 100 levels (I think). I don't know, I just have a lot of faith that the system will actually work out in the end, although we won't see until the game is actually released.
Feel free to visit my website/blog - it's updated rarely, but it looks pretty cool!
Originally posted by Error 52
It's different when you're jumping around levels all the time and can change them whenever you feel like it. I've been browsing itch.io over the past week using the randomiser, and let me tell you, i've played a lot of shitty games over the past week. But that's what's fun about it!

To be fair, if that's exactly what one is expecting then, yeah, there's no problem and it's more an exercise in laughing at what goes wrong than expecting things to go right.

That's pretty negative though.

Originally posted by RPG Hacker
I technically agree to you, although all the levels I've seen so far still worked quite well in my opinion.

It's a trade-off, really. Are you willing to severely punish those who can't quite get a hang of your level despite how simple it is? You can probably still rack up those stars just by appealing to the people who likes imitations, but you will be screwing over those who aren't interested or those who aren't as skilled. If this sounds like shady business practices, that's because, like the art world, selective appeal is a viable way to gain popularity.

There definitely isn't the perfect level, so I have to wonder if the good will actually be quite different from the bad. It's a system with promise but, it's gonna have to trust in humans to not break it. If something, like say Metroid levels, gain a stupid amount of popularity, that bandwagon will crash through and most players will probably get sick of metroid knockoff #1,584. There's no stopping it I know, and I'll accept that, but I can't help but worry about the easy to do hard to master niches that will be a part of the level base.
I hope no one on here in the UK pre-ordered their copies from GAME!

OUCH!
Originally posted by Sokobansolver

wow i just got one of my videos with smw's original soundtrack copyrighted, also one of my YI 2014 videos got too
currently : 2 projects, Riki's adventure and super faggot world 2
Originally posted by Sokobansolver


That just pissed me off a little. I hope they don't crack down on more TAS videos.

Edit: I just read the full article. I feel annoyed by Nintendo now...
Originally posted by Finbot29
Originally posted by Sokobansolver


That just pissed me off a little. I hope they don't crack down on more TAS videos.

Edit: I just read the full article. I feel annoyed by Nintendo now...

i got pissed off too, like

nintendo sucks
currently : 2 projects, Riki's adventure and super faggot world 2
As it turns out, more costumes are on the way.
The first will be Famitsu's mascot.

This means the game will indeed get more content, if only just more costumes. Nintendo sure is more open about promoting their games now.
I just got an email saying I'm banned from holding a job in the games industry because of my credits in LM. There goes my entire life...

Originally posted by Bad luck man
The first will be Famitsu's mascot.

Who?
Let's milk Sunny Milk. Then she'll have enough money to fund Sunny Milk Real Estate.
Everypony's digging with a shovel
Famitsu is a Japanese magazine.

Click the character on the right side of my layout to visit my Discord server and discuss and play and look at and get updates and sneak peeks of the games and other things I'm making.

The authors of these 2 My Little Pony fan games have removed their games from the Internet.
Rise of the Clockwork Stallions has been updated! Download My Little Pony: Rise of the Clockwork Stallions DX: Director's Cut and My Little Pony: Magic Shards now! Spread this link!

Originally posted by DPBOX
Famitsu is a Japanese magazine.

No, I meant the mascot.
Let's milk Sunny Milk. Then she'll have enough money to fund Sunny Milk Real Estate.
Everypony's digging with a shovel
Originally posted by Sokobansolver

I've got several SMW videos on my Youtube channel. Am I going to have to delete ALL of them?