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VLDCX - Preliminary Discussion

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Originally posted by ThePat545
Alright thanks a bunch!

edit: How and when does one submit a level exactly? I think I remember something about being provided with a ROM or patch or something (not sure how that works tbh)

When the official contest is launched, there will be a forum (and an article on the Main Page directing to said forum) where levels can be showed off and a thread where they will be officially submitted. Until it is launched, you can not submit a level.
Your layout has been removed.
Originally posted by ThePat545
How and when does one submit a level exactly? I think I remember something about being provided with a ROM or patch or something (not sure how that works tbh)

I imagine that'll be discussed and you'll be given directions once the contest actually starts in early February.

e: ninja'd, but amhunter says it better than I do.

Originally posted by ft029
Well, there will always be coin factory opportunities in levels like Aperture Laboratory, and people will leave their emulators on overnight or something watching the score go up by 10s

Or wiggler abuse

Of course there'll always be people that do this, but they're also the type of people who generally take the fun out of everything anyway. In other words, we'll just have to go by the ol' fashioned code of "don't be a dick" once that whole thing begins.
Originally posted by S.N.N.
it might give people a bit more incentive to explore levels fully, go for all the dragon coins, etc.

Maybe a reason to collect all the Dragon Coins besides hiding a secret exit with one of the coins pasted over another tile in LM. That's one thing the GBA version improves upon.
Legacy custom music
A site with a non-useless dislike button
SMW hacking channel

1) If you think so.
2) New remixes are always nice but please, let's have a proper grassland and athletic remix this time!
3) To be honest, Lunar Magic inserts so many ASM hack to the ROM, it really had streched the definition of vanilla. I mean, using Mode 0 isn't really more vanilla than e.g. using custom layer 3 backgrounds, not to mention that some levels in the VLDC are by defnition of the contest vanilla even though they sometime feel like they're more a level for the CLDC. We also started to use SA-1 in VLDC8, didn't we? Difficult decision but I honestly tend to yes.
VLDC9 was a recursive achronym (VLDC Level Design Contest) for a reason, wasn't it.
4) Go on with that.
5) I liked the one from VLDC9 and it's enough.
6) Not reallly needed
7) Nope.
8) ^
9) ^
10) Y not?
11) It is a bug fix. Why shouldn't we insert it.
12) 10 are enough I guess? Or what about 15?

I also would suggest for a better counter break. The current one mean: If you are on the overworld, you lose all your items. I had the idea for a reminding counter break which checks the level before deleting all item and if the current level isn't the previous one, you lose your items.
Something I have suggested for VLDC8.
May I be the coder for that one too?
I guess I'll post some of my thoughts.

First and foremost, I think we should keep most of the rules similar to last year's contest. The leniency on what should be considered vanilla or not was pretty solid for the most part, especially stuff like overlapping 2 GFX on one tile. I found that stuff useful.

I don't know how mode 0 works, but it sounds neat and I would go for it.

I'd like to see the no-fly-cape implemented. It can lend itself well to certain levels that could otherwise be exploited by flying. A sign before the level would be enough indication you can't fly in the level.

Optional patches on a per-level basis would be nice, but I think that would be too much work and those inconsistencies would be more confusing than, say, the no-fly-cape. I'll go with no on that one.

It'd be great if the Spinjump/double sprite glitch was patched out, quite annoying when that happens.

Yes please to all the ExGFX, map16, and ExAnimation patches. Had some trouble fitting everything into my entry last year. The extra space for ExGFX and the new ExAnimation triggers sound especially appealing. EDIT: I'll say no to the graphics rotation to any degree and upscaling however.

Either way, no matter what the rules are I'll try to make something nice for the contest given the time frame. Thanks to the SMWC staff for holding this every year. #tb{^V^}

5 STAR POINTS!

Or better yet, try making levels based on other games/movies/tv shows (VLDC9 had themed levels on it).

For dedicated music requests: It seems we have a good idea for this. We could imagine something like, "Does this Ice remix sounded than the other one?" or "I kindly disregard about that Cave submap song."

For Mode 0: Hmmm... Sounds like we have an idea for it. And if we have to use custom code in SMW, will it turn into Cookies and Cream-styled level?

For Conditional Direct Map16: (see above)

For exit unbeaten levels: UPVOTE!
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About scoring, we should do 573 points for design, 153 points for creativity, and 222 points for aesthetics:

(courtesy of JUMP1/2 Discord chat)

On a more serious note, I thought 30-20-10 was pretty good. The amount of ties doesn't really bother me, considering that if there are 5 or 6 judges, there will be .2's and .166's and such.
Originally posted by Vitor Vilela
- Should we add or remove some patch from the base ROM, including non-fix ones


SA-1 should be in, as it's pretty much the only way to have Lunar Magic accept 8MB ROMs. I don't like it, but it's obligatory at this point.
As for fix ones, I'm not a fan of patches, I think that speedruns should be allowed to use whatever glitches they like.

Originally posted by Vitor Vilela
- DQ joke/kaizo/etc. levels?


No. Worst World did not feel like Worst World due to disqualification of joke levels. I love starting games with obvious joke levels (such as Epic Nothing), as they actually show what the worst was like.

1) Not sure what that means, but that's probably too complex. Just make a level design contest in my opinion.
2) I didn't mind lack of variety in tracks, but I want to point out that VLDC8 and VLDC9 tracks weren't used as often as VLDC7 ones
3) At this point you may as well allow ASM to have HDMA :). You know, I wouldn't mind it too much at this point, but the contest is still called "vanilla".
4) I don't see why not, but I want to point out that this will disallow forced suicide puzzles after a Midway Point. Probably not a big loss, this is more of a JUMP thing.
5) Whatever works, really. That said, I wouldn't mind it activating from overworld (like in JUMP and SMBX Contents), but that probably will require full screen for scores themselves to avoid affecting Layer 3 or windowing on overworld.
6) If you can do that, sure, why not. Don't delay VLDCX release just for that however. Also, keep in mind that storing times will require lots of SRAM space.
7) Where is disable L+R patch? No. Deal with it.
8) I want to note that rope fix can be applied in vanilla by using invisible sprite blocks for the wall, so even with Rope Fix not being applied, there could be an inconsistency about rope glitch. Nobody in right mind would design a level that requires balloon glitch. So the question is essentially about "Piranha Plant Fix Patch Fix" (which DaSpongeBobMan actually tried to disable in his VLDC9 entry) and "Pit fix" (which is IMO a bad idea, I hope this patch gets removed in VLDCX, as reduced pit boundary does make underwater more cheap, which annoyed me a lot when this patch was applied in JUMP 1/2, and none of levels in JUMP 1/2 needed that patch). If Pit fix gets removed, it's just Piranha Plant Fix (where somebody may want to have piranha plants on SP2, which sounds reasonable in my opinion)
9) No, it's really an arbitrary rule that prevents edge case. Just let it pass.
10) I feel like judge's favorites are enough, but if you can make it work, then I'm not too opposed.
11) I don't see why not. That fix I have nothing against, as it helps the player.
12) Sure.

questionable) No. Infinite overlap I feel like allows making completely new graphics by combining many very small objects together (especially when combined with rotation).

19) Just be aware that status bar can be annoying if balanced incorrectly. But sure.
I think I'll be participating!

Here are my opinions on the OP questions.
1) Different level categories (mini-game, mega challenge, etc.)
No. I think those should have their own separate contests, possibly with vanilla restrictions. They would be pretty fun in their own right.
2) Dedicated music poll
Neutral. Couldn't hurt, though I'm fine with the current remixes.
3) Mode 0
No. Sounds fun, but I think this is against the spirit of the contest.
4) Exit unbeaten levels
Yes, that'd be convenient. More convenient than having to commit plumber seppuku.
5) Fancy score chart
Neutral. That honestly sounds like more effort than it's worth.
6) Level completion timers
No. Speedrunners and similar challenge players are a small minority and they can set up their own external timers.
7) Optional fly free region
No. Personally I think levels should be both designed and judged with the cape in mind.
8) Optional patches for SMW physics
No. Either patch everything or patch nothing, it's no fun playing a level and having to figure out whether some weird mechanic works or not.
9) Ban SFX sample changes
Yes, but honestly, that sounds like a lot of work.
10) Level badges
Yes. There are a bunch of levels in the previous contest that were extremely creative but plain not fun to play (with egregious offenders in the top 10).
11) Apply spinjump fix patch
Yes. I don't think keeping that mechanic in adds anything to levels.
12) Double ExGFX files
Why not.
--Questionable ideas--
13) Graphics upscaling, 14) Graphics rotation, 15) Graphics overlap
No. Personal preference: if it were up to me I'd actually ban recoloring and go as far as to forbid using graphics with origins that aren't immediately recognizable. Things are already crazy as they are.
16) Conditional Map16
Neutral. I'm a bit iffy about crazy advanced techniques.
17) More ExAnimation space, 18) More exanimation triggers, 19) Clean/minimalist status bar
Neutral.
1 - I can imagine VLDC10 having different level categories.
I vote no. First and foremost it is meant to be a vanilla level design contest so imposing artificial restrictions beyond those already imposed by the vanilla "label" is not something I would like. What makes the collaboration special is that one has the freedom to design any theme of level. This is not a feature that is usually present in other collaboration hacks.

2 - During the level contest period, there will be a dedicated music requests thread in the VLDC forum,
Definitely. The music requests thread should be opened as soon as possible so that music composers have more time to finalise the game's soundtrack.

3 - mode 0
No. It's not vanilla.

4 - exit unbeaten levels
Yes.

5 - fancy score chart
I have no opinion either way on this feature. I never looked at the score charts during my playthrough of the hack.

6 - timers
It would be a good feature for speedrunners to use, but adding this depends on how much ROM space is available. It would be nice to see it in VLDCX but not at the expense of other, more important, patches.

7 - fly free region
No, because it is not vanilla. Besides, it is very easy to stop the player from flying over the level without using a fly-free-zone patch. The level creator needs to design the level with cape in mind. An alternative idea - but please note I dislike this one too - is to disable cape flying completely but allow the player to float and strike enemies with the cape. I believe that suggestion is less inconsistent than the first, but nonetheless it will draw criticism from those who wish to utilise cape flying in their level.

8 - optional patches
Much of my criticism of the fly-free-zone idea applies here: consistency. Optional bug fix patches definitely should be applied, to make the experience more polished, but should be applied globally not on a level-by-level basis.

9 - ban sfx sample changes
I have no opinion either way on this.

10 - level badges
Yes. It would encourage participation in the contest, and it would also encourage everyone to put in a bit more effort into their level to win a badge.

11 - apply spinjump fix patch
Yes.

12 - double exgfx files
If the space is available in the ROM to allow 20ExGFX files per user, then sure.

---

Also I vote 'no' to any of the fancy graphics features listed below your original 12 suggestions.
Originally posted by SpicySeafood
11 - apply spinjump fix patch
No. Spin jumping in its current form, although it can be overpowered, is a feature of SMW. In the VLDC we should strive to emulate SMW's physics and features as best as possible. Bug fixes can be applied, to fix errors in the original game, but I disapprove of any patches that significantly alter the game's mechanics.

Getting hurt when spinjumping on two things at once is a bug, not a feature. It's not intentionally coded in.
Your layout has been removed.
Okay. I misunderstood; I thought the creator was wanting to apply a patch to limit the capabilities of the spin jump so that one could only spin jump once before being hurt.

In that case, I agree the bug fix patch needs to be applied.
Originally posted by MarioFanGamer
I also would suggest for a better counter break. The current one mean: If you are on the overworld, you lose all your items. I had the idea for a reminding counter break which checks the level before deleting all item and if the current level isn't the previous one, you lose your items.
Something I have suggested for VLDC8.

Oh, definitely supporting that one.

(rest of my comments in previous post, I just don't feel like editing my posts to add new information)
I think I make an entry for this year's VLDC. No excessive decorations, but a lot of cute palettes and many creative challenges. No more spoilers in this thread.
I have a Discord server as well! (by joining, you agree to the rules)
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Basically, I believe in peace and bashing two bricks together.

Just a quick suggestion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean

For the impatient: for each entry, remove the highest and lowest scores from the judges and average the rest to get the final score.

Originally posted by Wikipedia (emphasis mine)
For example, in its use in Olympic judging, truncating the maximum and minimum prevents a single judge from increasing or lowering the overall score by giving an exceptionally high or low score.

YouTube
0. On DQ's:
I'd argue for DQ'ing levels that are made to "mock" the contest. Levels with obviously no effort put into them. Levels like Medic's streamside, which could be considered jokes, are still honest levels with effort put into them.

1. On categories:
Managing a bunch of categories seems like a complete waste of time for a VLDC. Tho there might be potential in supporting it to prepare a judge for an anonymous level.

2. On the music thread:
More songs sounds good and I kinda hope we get some tracks that don't necessarily go with SMW's melody (but still sort of fit the style).

3. On mode 0:
mode 0 seems completely out of style for the VLDCs and while it might be interesting I'd rather see a 24hos for mode 0 before I'd even imagine it in a vldc.

4. On exiting unbeaten levels:
Please do enable this. Getting stuck in a level sucks and there are levels in VLDC9 where you could get stuck, having to wait for the timer to count down.

5. On score charts:
Honestly I don't care about the score charts. I'd even prefer to keep them out of the game. Maybe there could be a way from an OW pause menu to just warp to a judge's favorite level?

7. On flight free regions:
Given that counter-breaks are used I think it's up to the designer to provide the cape or not. Now arguments could be made about adding extra powerups to a VLDC (think eg SMB3), but I don't think anyone would want that for VLDCX.

8. On optional bug fixes:
Please don't. Just create a base rom with all the necessary bug fixes and force designers to accept that.

9. On changing sfx:
I'd prefer sfx to stay vanilla, to the point of limiting the usage of songs that change the sfx.

10. On level badges:
Refer back to the score charts. Badges seem like a neat idea and might even have it's own warp system. I don't know though, might be a lot of work for little reward.

11. On spinjump fix patch:
OH MY GOD PLEASE YES. The bug in the original game is infuriating and this patch is a god send.

13. On upscaling:
Sure, provide 2x assets in the base rom. This is more than vanilla enough and while SMW didn't use the gimmick it's been present in previous installments.

14. On rotation:
Eh. I don't even see a use of this to begin with. I'd prefer not to mess with rotated graphics.

19. On the status bar:
I'd again like to keep this as vanilla as possible. The Mario x Infinity looked great to me.

---

Additional ideas:
Personally I very much like the idea of adding resources that are very SMW-like. There are certain things SMW could do that we can't because the original asset is hard coded. Sprites like Better Creating/Eating Block Snakes would be fantastic. I'd also really love more customizable auto-scrollers (god auto-scrollers are awful but I personally love designing levels with them ;_;).

Ultimately I guess there's really two ways to look at VLDC. Take the assets SMW (Lunar Magic) gives us and make whatever you can, or take the look SMW has and expand to create something SMW-like but better (I can't word this properly but I hope you'll get the gist). I personally prefer to make something SMW like but use assets that Lunar Magic doesn't necessarily give you, but I see nothing against levels Lunar Magic to its fullest.

I'd also like to see if a different scoring system could be applied entirely. I am personally a big fan of ranking levels, and there's many different methods to combine multiple rankings into a single representative ranking (each with their own drawbacks). I'm not a big fan of the whole categories for scores mechanic, but that might just be me.
Quote
0. Should we disqualify kaizo levels?

1. Do we include different level categories?


I think these two answer themselves.
Want to see my Super Mario Timeline?
Originally posted by mchabez
Just a quick suggestion:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncated_mean

For the impatient: for each entry, remove the highest and lowest scores from the judges and average the rest to get the final score.

Originally posted by Wikipedia (emphasis mine)
For example, in its use in Olympic judging, truncating the maximum and minimum prevents a single judge from increasing or lowering the overall score by giving an exceptionally high or low score.


It's true that outliers skew the average, but in this case we have so few judges that I don't think that would be a good idea. If we had 10 people judging levels, I could see it working.

A better compromise would be better discussion among judges, so we don't see a level that got 15 from one judge and 60 from another, although obviously we'll get variations in score. It's just weird seeing insane variations like in vldc9.
I have to Think of a Better Level to Design this Year. During VLDC9, its pretty Clear that Frozen Mirage (my level) didn't do so good, placing 98th Place#smw{-_-2}
1. NO
2. ----
3. NO
4. YES
5. NO (not necessary)
6. NO (not necessary)
7. NO (very inconsistent)
8. NO
9. YES
10. YES (nice idea)
11. NO
12. ----
13. NO
14. NO (way too unvanilla)
15. NO (two tiles are enough)
16. ----
17. NO (inconsistent)
18. NO (not necessary)
19. ----









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