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| Are forced power-downs really that bad? |
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Forum Index - SMW Hacking - General SMW Hacking Help - Are forced power-downs really that bad? |
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| Posted on 2009-06-02 07:49:02 PM |
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Are they? In many situations, a puzzle may need a cape or Yoshi, as it can provide a basis for quite interesting puzzles. However, such power-ups are quite powerful, and can easily make the game a bore. Yoshi provides infinite health, a sacrifice to not fall in pits, and an easy way to kill most enemies. Cape allows an easy way to kill enemies, being able to fly over levels, and getting stuck in places not meant for Mario. Also, being small Mario may be essential, as one may get stuck if they are big, or a puzzle simply requires a small stature.
If one were to use certain power-ups in puzzles, no doubt they wouldn't want them using it throughout the whole hack, making it easy. An easy fix would be a forced power-down, yet it is frowned upon! Of course, in such a hack, it would be set up so only small Mario may pass, not in a way where if you don't have a power-up or any means of getting one, you're screwed. Why are they so bad? Are they that bad?
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| Posted on 2009-06-02 08:14:09 PM |
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I think it would depend on the situation. Forcing you to be small for an optional puzzle should be fine, but a required puzzle is a no. For Yoshi, it should be okay to force the player to ditch it only if it was provided in that puzzle. For the cape, same thing as with Yoshi, but use something that would reduce him to Super Mario instead of small Mario, as it shouldn't cause as many problems for the player.
In short, sacrificing a power-up for something optional, or if the sacrificed power-up was provided in the puzzle, it is okay by my standards.
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| Posted on 2009-06-02 08:33:21 PM |
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Personally, I see nothing wrong with forced powerdowns, whether by forcing the player to take a hit, or custom blocks, as long as the player can "revert" back to the original form they were in before entering the puzzle, whether small Mario, or whatever he had ahead of time. Also, I think forced puzzles with powerups/powerdowns are perfectly fine, but it would be nice to let the player know it is required... However, all these hacks are based off of the original Super Mario World, which you could get unlimited powerups in the Top Secret Area, and Yoshi's were readily available, so most likely, any player or member from SMWC could easily fly over 95% of the levels, or abuse them with the cape, so I think we need to remember the "roots" so to speak, of where this whole site/idea came from. Basically, it is up to the "integrity" of the player, whether they want to abuse the game or not. Not to mention glitches like key jumps, shell jumps, springboard issues, going through walls, and so forth, none of which were meant to be used in the original, but still possible... I don't think this should be about the creators/designers getting into a battle of wits against the player, the creator trying everything to prevent the player from "breaking the level", and the player trying to exploit something to break the level, or abuse something. This should be about creativity, uniqueness, and doing something because the creator enjoys it, and it is fun, not something that should be a burden. Just my $.02
Thanks, Mapsking
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| Posted on 2009-06-02 08:39:39 PM |
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I think it depends on the entire philosophy of gaming that you want to be part of your game. By "professional" standards, such as those set by Nintendo, I can see why forced power downs are seen as bad. But in my opinion, part of what is interesting about rom hacks is that they allow the creator and the player to be free of such conventions. That is why I like games such as Kaizo or the Vips. In my view, a forced power down is not a bad thing. But it depends what sort of a hack you want to create, to be honest.
A lot of the advice given on smwcentral is geared towards creating a hack which is fair. However, if this sort of advice had been taken by the creator of Mario (I forget his name, you know who I mean), I don't think the Lost Levels would ever have been invented. The poison mushroom, the warp zones which take you backwards...all very unfair! But they made the game interesting, and special, because they offered a different approach to the relationship between gamer and game creator, and they subverted what the gamer already knew about Super Mario Bros. Hacking gives you the opportunity to do similar things.
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| Posted on 2009-06-02 08:55:39 PM |
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Blocks that remove Mario's powerup status when he goes through them should be fine, but a lot of times, players are rubbed the wrong way if they have to power down through other means, such as actually taking a hit from an enemy.
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| Posted on 2009-06-02 09:54:23 PM |
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QuoteIn many situations, a puzzle may need a cape or Yoshi, as it can provide a basis for quite interesting puzzles. However, such power-ups are quite powerful, and can easily make the game a bore. Yoshi provides infinite health, a sacrifice to not fall in pits, and an easy way to kill most enemies. Cape allows an easy way to kill enemies, being able to fly over levels, and getting stuck in places not meant for Mario. Also, being small Mario may be essential, as one may get stuck if they are big, or a puzzle simply requires a small stature.
Tough. You made the choice to create a puzzle that required a Cape/Yoshi to complete. You have therefore accepted that the player now potentially still has these things. Forcibly them constitutes heavy-handed gameplay.
There is a reason why Super Mario Bros is not a puzzle game. Just as the player should be able to complete a level as small Mario (unless you give him a powerup at the exact place in question), the player should be able to complete the level with any particular powerup. Non-required secret exits are of course a different matter.
If you don't like certain powers of the Cape/Yoshi, employ one of any number of patches to nerf them either temporarily or permanently.
And personally, there's very little I hate more than being stuck as small Mario for significant portions of the game.
QuoteHowever, if this sort of advice had been taken by the creator of Mario (I forget his name, you know who I mean), I don't think the Lost Levels would ever have been invented.
Shigeru Miyamoto did not make the "Lost Levels." He was busy making a game called "Doki Doki Panic." That's right; the US Super Mario Bros 2 has more claim to that name than the "Lost Levels."
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| Posted on 2009-06-03 01:57:59 AM |
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Originally posted by Nicol BolasTough. You made the choice to create a puzzle that required a Cape/Yoshi to complete. You have therefore accepted that the player now potentially still has these things. Forcibly them constitutes heavy-handed gameplay.
It could be considered as a loan. You loan the cape and/or Yoshi and sort of give it back after the puzzle. You don't keep things you loan to yourself in real life, do you?
QuoteIf you don't like certain powers of the Cape/Yoshi, employ one of any number of patches to nerf them either temporarily or permanently.
You can't nerf the cape or Yoshi. No matter what you do, the cape still has amazing enemy-killing powers and Yoshi can walk anywhere and save you from certain deaths. If you apply a patch to make the cape useless, why in the name of God would you use it for a puzzle?
QuoteThere is a reason why Super Mario Bros is not a puzzle game. Just as the player should be able to complete a level as small Mario (unless you give him a powerup at the exact place in question), the player should be able to complete the level with any particular powerup. Non-required secret exits are of course a different matter.
We're not talking about any SMB game, we're talking about our own ROM hacks. You are not the one to decide what we should have in our hacks. The creator is.
Though I still dislike using floating Munchers.
QuoteAnd personally, there's very little I hate more than being stuck as small Mario for significant portions of the game.
You could have something AFTER the puzzle. Like a Mushroom or something. Forced power-down does not always equal U HAF 2 STEY SMALZ 4 TEH REZT OF TEH GAEM.
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| Posted on 2009-06-03 03:41:13 AM |
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level design is subjective; there is no such thing as 'good' or 'bad'; there is only what your targeted audience does or does not like. despite what anyone says, the quality actual layout of any specific level is determined only by the experience of each individual.
if you say there is forced power-downs in your hack, it is no ones business to judge you for it. unfortunately the usual tendency of 'kaizo hacks' to contain poor visual aesthetics(which is different entirely), gives things such as that a bad reputation among the more elitist romhachers (coughrightwhereyouarecough). if you think its a good idea, go for it; no one can actually physically stop you now can they ;)
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| Posted on 2009-06-03 03:08:58 PM |
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QuoteYou can't nerf the cape or Yoshi. No matter what you do, the cape still has amazing enemy-killing powers and Yoshi can walk anywhere and save you from certain deaths.
You most certainly can; I've written several patches that conditionally remove certain cape powers. There are sufficient tools at this site to take away virtually any aspect of the cape or Yoshi's abilities that you don't like.
QuoteWe're not talking about any SMB game, we're talking about our own ROM hacks. You are not the one to decide what we should have in our hacks. The creator is.
The OP clearly disagrees, since he asked the question. He wanted advice; I gave him some.
Quotelevel design is subjective; there is no such thing as 'good' or 'bad'
Oh, please. Level design has some subjective components, but it has objective components as well. There is level design that is objectively bad.
Take "I Wanna Be The Guy," for example. The game is essentially a kick to the crotch in gameplay form. That is what it is designed to do. I have nothing but disdain for such design. However, that is different from saying that it has bad level design. For the purpose of what it is trying to achieve, IWBTG has very good level design.
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| Posted on 2009-06-03 03:23:49 PM |
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On the same hand, however, there are many, MANY fans of IWBTG, who enjoy it very much. I think it is only fair to say there are also people who enjoy puzzles, forced powerdowns, don't mind floating munchers, don't mind hard hacks, glitches in the game, or whatever you may be talking about at the time.
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| Posted on 2009-06-04 03:21:29 AM |
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*cough*
WhiteYoshiEgg made already something for this cases.
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| Posted on 2009-06-04 03:44:24 AM |
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Well Superyoshi, thanks for putting that there. Good for people to know.
Personally, I don't think they are all that bad. But, its all about what happens afterwards. If you at least give them something back, I reckon it's fine. But if you force the power-down for no particular reason, then I don't like it.
Like I said before: It's all about what happens afterwards.
That's my Philosophy.
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| Posted on 2009-06-05 08:19:10 AM |
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There was one forced power-down like area in the original SMW, in Vanilla Fortress, there was a route only small Mario could take. That's not really a forced power-down, but it works the same way.
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| Posted on 2009-06-05 09:27:36 AM |
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I Don't really see any harm in it: A forced powerdown can either be a good thing or a bad thing. I first seen it in TSRP2, where you had to be small Mario to enter a door. As for capes, you wouldn't like it if the player used the cape to fly over the whole level would you? add some kind of roof to prevent it from happening, so then there wouldn't be a use for a forced powerdown.
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| Posted on 2009-06-05 01:21:25 PM |
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Wiimeiser, that was just an alternate route.
Personally, I don't think forced power downs are good, but a door or path that only small Mario can go in is fine, so long as it's just for a secret.
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| Posted on 2009-06-06 09:42:15 PM |
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Captain Falcon:
I just said it was LIKE a forced power-down. Like if that was the only way to go. But it isn't, it still needs you to be small Mario.
Sort of what you said.
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