 |
|
 |
|
| Obama's (socialist) Health Care Plan |
|
Forum Index - Serious Business - Hot off the Press - Obama's (socialist) Health Care Plan |
|
|
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-28 09:38:40 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Ah, but if you were really for saving "all life" you'd care for animal life as well, which you don't seem to. We know animal life is alive, but we don't know if early developing embryos are yet.
Originally posted by Pyro XAlso, I would like to mention that guns have also brought down BAD historical figures.
I don't care. Murder is not the solution to problems.
Originally posted by Pyro XCells. The smallest unit of life, as all of my science teachers over the years have told me.
An embryo begins as a series of cells, no different from skin or blood cells. Skins cells "die" on a daily basis. By that logic, losing several skin cells due to a scratch is no different than aborting an embryo.
In terms of an actual fetus, which comes later in development, I am less in favor of that, but unlike many extremists from the right, I don't believe in killing abortion doctors like George Tiller.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 12:19:49 AM |
Link | Quote |
|
Hitler wasn't socialist.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he a fascist?
This thread is kind of silly.
Obama is not the best president, but he certainly does NOT intend to do evil things like Hitler did.
Honestly. You fell for the Chocolate Adolf Hitler joke? It's a meme, you realize?
I'll sum up your post with an image. It should have been this:
Instead of this:
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 01:13:02 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Originally posted by Pyro Xsince whenever did I say that sex before marriage should be illegal? I'm against it, but it's a decision that the person is going to have to make.
I'll give you credit for respecting the person(s)' choices despite disagreeing with them, but answer me these questions:
1. Are a lot of conservatives any different from liberals in terms of being anti-freedom? You may be tolerant of how other people choose to live, but a lot of conservatives are not, and dream of a future where anything they're against is a federal offense.
2. You seem to be very discriminative towards liberals in general. Do you have any liberal friends, or will you just not associate with anyone who isn't a Republican? Do you think that all liberals are Obama worshipping idiots? Because if so, then you are really not an iota different from the people who you criticize for being biased.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 03:09:04 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
|
Actually, this is even a little scary, reminiscent of what Hitler said about that too, most remember: If it were not for Hitler, medicine would not be where it is today, unfortunately.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 05:00:18 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Humans learn from mistakes.
Just like an animal, we adapt to the environment.
In this case, we adapted from the disaster that is WW2.
|
| Last edited on 2009-08-29 07:24:25 PM by Troopa. |
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 07:11:32 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Originally posted by Pyro XOriginally posted by Pyro_XNo, I am saying laws that usurp the people = communism. There need to be laws to keep order. But the government passing laws such as this health care bill? No, I won't stand for it
Originally posted by An00bisLooks like you believe in some sort of minimalistic type government where the only thing they do is put restrictions on bad things, without ever doing something for the common good. Also, if you think the laws are there to maintain order, why are you pro-arms? :\
Because, the second amendment says we can have guns. I am not a total anarchist (if I was I would be libertarian, not conservative) There needs to be a federal government, but it should not be so imposing. You should absolutely not rely on it at all. This is a country of freedom and independence. Not a country of socialism and no freedom. No, that's Europe. And we shouldn't have to be like Europe.
First of all, Europe is not a country. It's a continent.
Second, I completely agree with you that we should never have to rely on government for anything, but the government offers so much stuff that we citizens could, and should, take advantage of, and I can't imagine one day where I haven't wanted to do so.
Third, the freedoms of Americans are not absolute: they are relative. You cannot do whatever you want, because some actions can impose on the freedoms of other people. The Constitution is in essence a social contract, which means that you will have to give up certain things.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 07:59:16 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Supertails: You said "murder is not the solution". Then why do you support abortion? Oh wait, you can actually prove animals are alive, but you can't prove that an embryo is alive. Okay, so what if I just got every single fertile chicken egg I could get my hands on and started smashing them all?
Also, how do I put it like this? If weren't for guns, we wouldn't have won the american revolution? The civil war? Where would America be if we couldn't own guns? If the people before us hadn't fought for our freedoms, where would we be? Have we taken our freedoms for granted?
Troopa: Okay fine, you want a communist example? Stalin. He was communist AND fascist.
Not everyone, unfortunately, always learn from their mistakes. Due to ignorance, generally.
FuriousVampire:
1. So far, none of my conservative friends have wanted to suppress anything they disagree with. They may have gotten into arguments with liberals before, but to be fair, who hasn't? However, if something doesn't impose on the rights of other humans, than generally, they don't want to suppress it. Abortion is an example, however, of something that conservatives want to suppress. Because that indeed imposes on the rights of other humans.
2. Indeed, I have 1 liberal friend. Though he indeed thinks that Obama is just another politician. So, I really have nothing more to say on this question. Though a lot of liberals in power kiss up to Obama *cough cough* Nancy Pelosi *cough*
TRS: "some actions can impose on the freedoms of others"
Isn't that what I states earlier? That our freedoms extend until they infringe upon the freedoms of other people?
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 09:52:17 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
I honestly wouldn't care, as an embryo is simply a collection of cells, and as I've mentioned, can't be proved to be any more than that at the present time. Do you have scientific proof a "soul" lies within an embryo, the same kind of embryo that's found in plants? I think not. I also have to ask: do you think that a woman who became pregnant through rape or incest should be forced to have their child? You talk so much about "freedom" yet you yourself suppress a freedom of choice. You have no basis on which to assume that an embryo is a human life at that point in development.
Originally posted by Pyro XIf weren't for guns, we wouldn't have won the american revolution?
Yes. And if there were no guns, the British wouldn't have either. There's a fairly high chance an agreement may have ended up working out without the use of firearms, but we had to invent devices that only serve destructive purposes.
Again, I'm not saying guns should be restricted, but Obama has passed no piece of legislation in his presidency that inhibits gun rights in any way, shape, or form. I don't see why so many people need to act so defensive and bring their guns to town hall meetings out of fear of losing their rights when that clearly isn't going to happen.
The idea of guns potentially protecting one is pretty ridiculous as well. If you have a burglar or something, they could easily take your gun right out of your drawer and use it against you. Very rarely have I seen guns for private purposes truly serving much of a use, but it is a right within the constitution all the same.
I've been pretty disappointed with Obama, mainly because he's been lacking the toughness and passion that's really needed at the time. It's up to him to dispel the lies and garbage that's being spread about health care, and unfortunately he hasn't been doing a good job of it. It's sad that many republicans have even admitted they go against this plan simply for political gain, one even going so far as to say it would "break him and be his Waterloo." I find it pathetic that they care much more about keeping their own position than actually trying to serve the American people, which they were elected to do.
(also, let's steer this topic back to health care, which was the original purpose anyway. I will close this if it gets too far off topic again)
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-29 11:34:15 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Us Canadians don't have guns.
You don't see us complaining.
Although as an Obama supporter, I must admit that I am disappointed in his lack of toughness. He needs to be able to stand up to people critics who spread false information and rumors, and prove those critics wrong!
Originally posted by Pyro XSupertails: You said "murder is not the solution". Then why do you support abortion?
Oh Jesus Christ.... And if abortion was illegal, what should be done with the women who have illegal abortions? Are you going to propose to execute raped teenage victims? Or their abortionists for pitying them so much? Because you know, a lot of abortion is done underground as well!
Before I post a huge wall of text, I must ask:
Are you being all serious here?
Or are you taking part in the Obama trolling meme that some people took part in months back? If so, you're late. It's not funny anymore.
Furthermore, and out of curiosity, are you one of the terrible people in support of what happened to an abortionist who was recently killed?
http://blogcritics.org/politics/article/controversial-abortionist-dr-george-tiller-assassinated/
Actually, don't answer my questions. A moderator needs to lock this thread. Hot off the Press is for news. Not bullshit.
|
| Last edited on 2009-08-29 11:46:15 PM by Troopa. |
|
| Posted on 2009-08-30 05:54:09 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
I agree with Troopa. This kind of slander and unintelligence should be on Fox News where it belongs. I always get a good chuckle from the ignorance of misguided right-wingers.
Obama's Health Care Reform is far from socialism. It creates a government OPTION. You do not have to quit using your insurance company. The government OPTION is for families who can't afford health insurance due to the greed of those companies.
For those of you who choose to stay on your insurance, it will likely become cheaper, as the insurance companies will compete with the public option.
In short, this creates competition, drives down prices, improves the economy, and is overall a great idea.
Universal Healthcare is an entirely different debate and has nothing to do with this reform, so you can keep your Reagan t-shirts, guns, and white male supremacist buttons in the closet for now.
|
| Last edited on 2009-08-30 06:03:32 PM by Dragus. |
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 05:12:25 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Originally posted by TroopaActually, don't answer my questions. A moderator needs to lock this thread. Hot off the Press is for news. Not bullshit.
^^ Seconded. ^^
Let's face it; nobody has convinced anybody, especially not Pyro X, of anything, and nobody likely will. This topic isn't really worth replying to anymore.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 05:24:40 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Originally posted by TRSNobody has convinced anybody...of anything.
Did you expect a political debate to turn out any differently? >_>
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 06:13:50 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
There's one thing I think I haven't seen addressed in this whole debate over the uninsured: have you people thought about the fact that not all the uninsured are struggling and on the streets?
A study by Urban Insitute showed that out of the, I guess 46 million they say are uninsured, that around half don't have it because they don't feel like it. It doesn't seem like creating this option would cure your problems. Also there's the part that is between healthcares, but is still counted.
Also there will be no increase in COLA payments to the disabled, not allowing them to pay for Medicare. Why shouldn't we help increase their payments? Not raising the amount that the elderly in the social security system would only raise the amount of the uninsured.
About the Obamacare insurance plan: don't you think that how they operated would be drastically different? For it to compete with others, it would have to lower its prices, and wouldn't we paying for the lowering of prices that won't work because that late twenties to mid thirties guy thinks he's "invincible"?
I guess the best way to cut our uninsured would be to require those who qualify to be under some sort of plan, cutting the uninsured number by half, but I'm not the best with ideas. (I'm sorry if my arguments are weak, I'm not the best at debating issues.)
EDIT: I believe your reasonings for closing this thread are very poor. Just because you can't change one's opinion on a subject doesn't mean you can go "Oh this thread's BS, close it."
Let's say I made that thread about UN trying to ban hentai, and I felt it was a good move. Just because Troopa thinks it's a good move and I can't see a good enough reason to change my view to Troopa's doesn't give him the right to think this thread should be closed (I'm not attacking anybody here, it's just that reasoning seems poor.)
|
| Last edited on 2009-08-31 06:18:36 PM by BZM. |
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 06:52:39 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
I'm not going to make this post very long but, I find it funny how people who are arguing against me are the ones requesting closure. And I won't say much more than that, but it's just a bit humorous.
I do know by now, how political/religious debates seldom ever get anywhere.
Also, it's weird how some liberals in this thread are saying "it's not socialism" and others are saying "it is socialism".....
But to close my post, you guys need to read "The Giver" or "Animal Farm" or something along those lines.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 07:46:07 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
The Giver is entirely about censorship. The author basically was only rebuking the idea of "ignorance is bliss." Not sure how that pertains to this topic.
Animal Farm (and Lord of the Flies, while you're at it) have interesting views on society, but again don't really pertain to anything here. They talk about stupid people gaining political power (specifically totalitarians).
You've got a long way to go if you're trying to insinuate public healthcare = government controlling your life. Yes, it's taxes that go to helping other people. But taxes are only well spent when they do exactly that. Governments don't exist just to help you; they're there to help everybody.
When your money (and my money, and everyone else's) is spent on things that only help individuals, when it's spent on wars and other useless things, then we have an Animal Farm. I don't see public healthcare going in that direction.
EDIT: I should note that I've only read select chapters of animal farm (about half the book). So... could be way off 
|
| Last edited on 2009-08-31 08:10:19 PM by Kaijyuu. |
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 07:51:45 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Animal Farm was written by George Orwell, a democratic socialist. It's a great book. It really shows how communism was ruined after Lenin's death.
Anyway, here's a new question that's still on-topic. After the reform is passed, who thinks they're going to stay with their insurance company and who's going to switch? Either way you'll be looking at lower costs. Personally I think I'll be switching to the public option.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 08:11:46 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
|
As a poor college student, I really don't have much of an option. Could lean on my parents, but...
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 09:50:29 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Originally posted by Pyro XI'm not going to make this post very long but, I find it funny how people who are arguing against me are the ones requesting closure. And I won't say much more than that, but it's just a bit humorous.
Also, it's weird how some liberals in this thread are saying "it's not socialism" and others are saying "it is socialism".....
But to close my post, you guys need to read "The Giver" or "Animal Farm" or something along those lines.
It's also funny how you're jumping to conclusion in an act of paranoia. I'm not a liberal.
I'm someone involved with the Obama debate. I may support him, but I'm still neutral and I think my posts about him being stupid proves me true to my words.
Face it. It's because you've created one of the most pointless threads in all of smwcentral that is more of a retarded accusation than news or persuasion. Had you did your homework and organized the matter at hand, we would not be bashing you.
In fact, after reading your posts, I have to say: Congratz on making Obama critics look stupid. If you're truly against Obama, you would have refrained from this thread and left it to people who're actually serious on finding reasons to criticize Obama about.
Also, I have read The Giver and many other sophisticated stories, some beyond even your maturity, and I'm aspiring to become a writer of some sort, thank you very much!
It still doesn't persuade me of your argument.
How the hell is Obama being a socialist? This thread has already been pretty much beaten in terms of argument by a post a few posts back explaining how the new health care will work. All it does is give more options, which there for, helps the economy.
|
| Last edited on 2009-08-31 09:51:53 PM by Troopa. |
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 09:54:22 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
|
Part of what makes a conservative a conservative is unending stubbornness and a rejection of the facts. I would just leave Pyro alone at this point, as it's clear his false argument has been flattened.
|
|
| Posted on 2009-08-31 10:19:14 PM |
Link | Quote |
|
Originally posted by DragusPart of what makes a conservative a conservative is unending stubbornness and a rejection of the facts. I would just leave Pyro alone at this point, as it's clear his false argument has been flattened.
You can't make judgments about a large group by such a few number of people. Just because people use these "scare tactics" as you call them doesn't necessarily mean they're stubborn. Not all of them are the death panel kind of people. I know many people who are conservative and not stubborn. I've seen many conservatives in government who aren't the stubborn ones. I'm conservative and not stubborn. I'm always open and hearing these statements, looking them up, seeing every pro and con. I've done constant research on it, and I'm not saying anything about Obama being a socialist, I'm saying it won't work.
After the research, I had the same pro and con points about it as spigmike did. Since you seemed to have pass it up, here it is:
Originally posted by spigmikeFor the sake of an easy to read post, I'm basically going to use a pro/con list to voice my opinion on this matter:
Pros:
+Poor gain access to healthcare
+Expensive surgeries are more accessible to everyone
+Businesses do not have to provide healthcare to employees (unless they are taxed as much as it would cost to do so)
Cons:
-Doctors have no motivation to perform above government-based standards of quality
-Healthcare professionals essentially become government employees
-Much higher taxes
-Every medicine will become a generic and there will be very few alternatives, as they will not be able to make money if they aren't supported by the government
-Drug addicts are put on the transplant waiting list before business executives (take this as you may)
-Substance abuse will likely multiply significantly as addicts will have easier access to things like oxycontin, oxycodone, morphine, medical marijuana, etc., since they will be much cheaper
Obviously you can figure out where I stand
He seem to bring up great points and you just ignored him to attack Pyro.
Since you all seem to know oh so much about the healthcare, please address these. You have seemed to skip over the important to debate the off-topic and scare tactics.
Also I realize my preivous statements talked about Obama not addressing the "lazy" uninsured. I then realized it was previously addressed that Obama put a tax on those who don't do anything. That will only weed out maybe a few million of this group (the ones who make a little over the poverty line), but the rest make anywhere from 2 to 3 times that. The tax, unless is a high enough one (which is seems like it wouldn't be) will lower the uninsured maybe 5% at the most.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Forum Index - Serious Business - Hot off the Press - Obama's (socialist) Health Care Plan |
|
|
 |
|
 |
The purpose of this site is not to distribute copyrighted material, but to honor one of our favourite games.
Copyright © 2005 - 2013 - SMW Central
Legal Information - Link To UsTotal queries: 29
|
|
|
|
