| Why do so many people hate kaizo/platform hell? |
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Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hack Discussion - Why do so many people hate kaizo/platform hell? |
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| Posted on 2010-06-23 07:48:23 PM |
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It's not as if the so called 'bad level design' techniques aren't found in published games. Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Island DS are basically Kaizo style in the secret levels:
You get forced to die if you get stuck in Yoshi's Island Easter Eggs (or any other levels). Never got the criticism of this much, it's found a lot in published video games, heck, every Mario game from Sunshine onwards kills you for messing up a mini game. Or the purple coin missions. You get NPCs to talk to at the end to kill you if you miss any.
Blind jumps in said levels (surprisingly common in published games)
Bouncing off a switch over spikes in said levels
Trial and error and mean traps in said levels
Similarly, what's with the whole hatred of being killed for not quickly reacting? It's found in Wario Land 4's Super Hard mode in at least two levels:
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Heck, many games have cut off. Yoshi's Island DS even has an extremely blatant example in one of the levels (I think it's world 4's extra level).
I just never got why people here seem to want higher standards (and often think they're better) than the actual video game industry.
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| Posted on 2010-06-23 09:46:11 PM |
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Because everyone wants to be better than the VGI.
Also, no one has time for "kaizo/platform hell" because they can't spend their hard-earned time trying to complete said "kaizo/platform hell." Seriously, dude, go a couple rounds with Kaizo World (which is hard because of bad level design) and then go a couple rounds with Megaman or Contra, games that are actually hard because of GOOD level design.
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| Last edited on 2010-06-23 09:47:13 PM by ThreeStripes. |
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| Posted on 2010-06-24 08:00:51 AM |
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Because no one wants to spend an hour or more on a single level just because they die every few seconds. On rare occasion may you find a Kaizo that doesn't do so. However, that does not necessitate bad level design, as long as there is more to the level than muncher-ridden jumps.
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| Posted on 2010-06-24 09:00:44 AM |
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My main irk from Kaizos comes from the ridiculously precise jumps and cheap tricks (e.g. invisible coin blocks when making an important). Dying a bunch of times isn't fun. It's really all about the balance. If I'm dying literally every few seconds, that's not cool. However, if I die a substantial amount of times, yet I make progress and gradually get better, then that's a better experience for me.
I realize published games have some forced suicide and other tricks found in some SMW hacks. However, as I said, my main problem is the constant death. If those sorts of things happened in a published game, I'd be pissed as well. Hell, I'd be even more pissed because I paid for the game.
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| Posted on 2010-06-24 10:57:56 AM |
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Originally posted by cheat-master30Blind jumps in said levels (surprisingly common in published games)
Bouncing off a switch over spikes in said levels
Trial and error and mean traps in said levels
Similarly, what's with the whole hatred of being killed for not quickly reacting? It's found in Wario Land 4's Super Hard mode in at least two levels:
Heck, many games have cut off. Yoshi's Island DS even has an extremely blatant example in one of the levels (I think it's world 4's extra level).
I just never got why people here seem to want higher standards (and often think they're better) than the actual video game industry.
Just because THEY do it, doesn't mean WE should.
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| Posted on 2010-06-24 04:38:07 PM |
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Kaizo hacks are meant usually for tool-assisting. Most of the time, if something is extremely hard in a published game, your doing something wrong.
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| Posted on 2010-06-24 05:50:50 PM |
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Originally posted by StripeyDopeSeriously, dude, go a couple rounds with Kaizo World (which is hard because of bad level design) and then go a couple rounds with Megaman or Contra, games that are actually hard because of GOOD level design.
Kaizo Mario doesn't have bad level design. Sure, it's so hard that it's impossible without savestates, but that doesn't mean it's bad level design. You're seeing it as bad because you're comparing it to published games that are possible without savestates while still being hard.
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| Posted on 2010-06-25 03:37:21 AM |
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I'm going to agree with Ulti and Goldensonic (what a surprise). Some remarks though:
An elaboration of Goldensonic's point: Kaizo Mario World looks horrible with all the stacked flunchers etc, but the level design is amazing. You don't die every few seconds, I myself did a savestate-less run of the first world.
Also cheat-master30: what's wrong with trying to improve the standards of hacks? I don't see why creations from here should be compared to the actual video game industry, especially not to show we should set the standards lower.
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| Posted on 2010-06-25 04:23:33 AM |
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Originally posted by StripeyDopeAlso, no one has time for "kaizo/platform hell" because they can't spend their hard-earned time trying to complete said "kaizo/platform hell."
Since I haven't played Kaizo I'm going to apply I Wanna Be The Guy to this situation and tell you you are very, very wrong. The best part of these kinds of games is that they trick you into killing yourself at some points. You swear at yourself and press R to try again.
Originally posted by StripeyDopeSeriously, dude, go a couple rounds with Kaizo World (which is hard because of bad level design) and then go a couple rounds with Megaman or Contra, games that are actually hard because of GOOD level design.
- Contra is hard because you have one hit per life and a tonne of enemies. Not level design.
- Hard != bad level design. The level design of difficult games is often some of the best you may witness, because they've had to put extra effort in to make it hard, but achievable. It's all about timing.
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| Posted on 2010-06-25 07:44:58 AM |
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Originally posted by GoldenSonic15Originally posted by StripeyDopeSeriously, dude, go a couple rounds with Kaizo World (which is hard because of bad level design) and then go a couple rounds with Megaman or Contra, games that are actually hard because of GOOD level design.
Kaizo Mario doesn't have bad level design. Sure, it's so hard that it's impossible without savestates, but that doesn't mean it's bad level design. You're seeing it as bad because you're comparing it to published games that are possible without savestates while still being hard.
That's actually a good point. Especially considering Kaizo isn't quite as badly cut off or filled with glitchy graphics or stacked/floating munchers as many of the poorly done imitators are. Compare it to say, Mario's Masochistic Mission or Kusottare World and you can see a tremendous difference in level design quality.
I also read somewhere (not sure if it's true, it was in a Youtube commentary) that the original Kaizo videos didn't actually use save states.
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| Posted on 2010-06-25 12:08:27 PM |
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cheat-master30:
The original Kaizo videos did not use savestates. Also there is a major difference between level designs and graphics. Lastly Mario's Masochistic Mission and Kusottare World were not imitations of Kaizo, most Kaizo hacks aren't.
Ah well to sum up the pointless post: get your definitions right.
Also CP: in IWBTG you get reset points every now and then (I believe roughly every other screen?) where in most Mario hacks, if you play savestateless, you'd have to start the level all over again. Imagine IWBTG without save points.
Also I fully agree with your 2., most level design of harder games can be arguably better than that found in easier games as it needs more testing and a LOT more attention to detail.
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| Posted on 2010-06-25 02:22:13 PM |
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Because there hard and most can't be done without savestates. That and they just look terrible.
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| Posted on 2010-06-27 06:39:48 AM |
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Not all Kaizo hacks look terrible! *coughsigcough*
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| Posted on 2010-06-27 09:36:27 AM |
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Wario Land 4 is a challenging and damn fun game. You can't compare it and Kaizo hacks, for a lot of reasons. Even though Super Hard in WL4 is cruel, it doesn't make you have to use savestates, it's perfectly beatable with skill. But Kaizo hacks are impossible without at least savestates. And usually in hard games you don't have to spend 10 minutes on one obstacle.
That's what annoys me the most about Kaizo hacks, or games like IWBTG. I don't have the patience to do the same thing over and over, because 1 jump is so unfair that you cant get past it.
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| Posted on 2010-06-27 10:39:35 AM |
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The reason I don't like Kaizo-type hacks is that I don't really want to spend the rest of my life mastering one level of a hack. I play it in between classes(I'm in college) for some short-term entertainment. The typical hacks here with good story, music, custom stuff is great for short term entertainment because you know you're progressing. I like puzzle-type hacks too. They develop critical thinking which is good.
If you do manage to complete a Kaizo-type hack without any saved states what do you get in return? Hand-eye coordination? Try playing tennis against a moderate tennis player and see how much "hand-eye coordination" you got from playing through Kaizo. Bragging rights? No one else was there to verify it. The answer is: a false sense of accomplishment. No offense but that's all there really is.
I have no complaints against level design, cheap tricks, timed blind jumps and stuff like that but I won't play a hack with those elements in it.
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| Posted on 2010-06-28 12:25:00 AM |
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Another example: Giana Sisters DS, tiny stone beneath the D in X-1. I couldn't beat it without exploiting the fact that the D is made up of breakable bricks.
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| Posted on 2010-07-01 10:26:39 AM |
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Originally posted by Sadistic Designer
Imagine IWBTG without save points.
Impossible mode. #w{ }
Anyway, I sort of understand where people are coming from who don't like Kaizo. It really is a niche genre, some people don't like the idea of levels actively trying to kill you at every turn. Of course, there are a few that just generalize Kaizo hacks based on the original (or worse yet, random Youtube hacks made only to anger hack LPers), thinking it's all flunchers and cut off and crazy glitches. In reality, Kaizo hacks are just like regular hacks, there's a quality difference. You got the crap hacks made by noobs, but there's also some neat hacks, you just have to look hard (harder than for normal hacks, since there's no rating system for Kaizo hacks here, you just have to ask around if you want to find the good hacks)
I may be a bit biased though, my whole "hacking career" (heh) has been all about the Kaizo.
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| Posted on 2010-07-01 08:58:25 PM |
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I personally like kaizo hacks. They are more fun to me than the regular hacks here except for ones like EVW, A Strange Mission, and Vip4. Kaizo is fun to me, not because of the difficulty, but because it doesn't take me 3 seconds to beat it. Literally, I downloaded ASMT and beat it in a day. I think people don't like it because they don't have fun. That's what SMW hacking is about right? Everybody here plays the hacks they want to play.
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| Posted on 2010-07-03 07:43:37 PM |
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I dislike Kaizos just because they're extremely hard.
No more reasons. They're just hard, and i just dislike them, never knew why people likes them, and never found them entertaining or funny. I find them as a big pain in the ass, and the worst kind of hack/game ever made.
But some people likes that difficulty and stuff... different opinions.
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