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Mario End Game; A Final hack I was working on...
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hack Discussion - Works in Progress - Mario End Game; A Final hack I was working on...
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Thanks, but that's rather vague, the whole 'what a new user would think'. Every new user who's never heard of hacking much and some professionals think thi hack does look brilliant.

Azentiger says it's looking like the best hack ever, as does DoomDragon, as does Artemendo, as do quite a few others (not gonna mention dahnamics again here).

And the hack doesn't use the same sprites and graphics, it's just those ones are some of the fanciest to show off, so I mainly show such.

All in all, please everyone keep in mind two things:

1. I'm designing this kinda for the Japanese hacking community more than SMW Central, and will submit it to that atpages hosted hack site that games like SMW YEAHH, Super Mario :p:p:p, Mario LD and Ore World are hosted at. They tend to like fancy stuff more than level design.

2. It's meant to be an extended video game climax. It's fancy because it's pretty much compressing about 80 levels of castles, bosses, ASM and tricks in about 20 levels, as if the whole thing took place in Bowser's Castle at the end of a 40 hour game.

Heck, for a third, it's a bit of a show case of what hacks are capable of more than level design.

But let's not argue too much, I have more important things to do.
Originally posted by cheat-master30
And trust me, it's not the same style. I like Wario Land far more than carol, and like Kirby and such far less. When did carol reference the Wario series?

Honestly, I don't know if Carol ever referenced the Wario series. But I don't think that really matters. Just because your hack isn't a 1:1 replication of Brutal Mario World doesn't mean they aren't similar.

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At this rate, I should probably do a level by level comparison to show it's not that much like Brutal Mario.

Again, doing it level by level, fact by fact will make them seem different. But a whole is not merely the sum of its parts, and the overall impression people are getting is Brutal Mario.
Heck, I've been following this thread for a while but don't remember you having posted a video of a level. If you really want people to believe it's different, show them. Especially show them the level design, because right now the only people who have any idea what levels are like beyond simple screenshots are your beta testers.

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You haven't even seen the code for most of the Brutal Mario bosses, or some of the ones dahnamics made for this.

Do you even know what good ASM is? I haven't seen anything anywhere to indicate that you know what the heck half the code in your hack even *does,* let alone that you know enough about assembly to go around saying that any code in particular is good code.

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1. I'm designing this kinda for the Japanese hacking community more than SMW Central, and will submit it to that atpages hosted hack site that games like SMW YEAHH, Super Mario :p:p:p, Mario LD and Ore World are hosted at. They tend to like fancy stuff more than level design.

So you're going to seek to impress people who couldn't possibly have an idea how little of this game you made. Good to know.

Well, at least until they get to the Japanese-made bosses. Then they might pick up the hint, I guess.

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2. It's meant to be an extended video game climax. It's fancy because it's pretty much compressing about 80 levels of castles, bosses, ASM and tricks in about 20 levels, as if the whole thing took place in Bowser's Castle at the end of a 40 hour game.

The thing that makes the climax of a 40-hour game isn't necessarily the stuff that happens there alone. It's had a lot of build-up to it as well, and just throwing neat stuff at the player because you can is honestly sort of pointless.
Originally posted by Extroble
Originally posted by cheat-master30
And trust me, it's not the same style. I like Wario Land far more than carol, and like Kirby and such far less. When did carol reference the Wario series?

Honestly, I don't know if Carol ever referenced the Wario series. But I don't think that really matters. Just because your hack isn't a 1:1 replication of Brutal Mario World doesn't mean they aren't similar.



He didn't. The series gets as little love there as Zelda and Metroid, which I might also reference.

Then again, the poor Wario series get overlooked over here as well. And in the USA...

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At this rate, I should probably do a level by level comparison to show it's not that much like Brutal Mario.

Again, doing it level by level, fact by fact will make them seem different. But a whole is not merely the sum of its parts, and the overall impression people are getting is Brutal Mario.



Fair enough.

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Heck, I've been following this thread for a while but don't remember you having posted a video of a level. If you really want people to believe it's different, show them. Especially show them the level design, because right now the only people who have any idea what levels are like beyond simple screenshots are your beta testers.



Well, if you want a hint, the levels are 300% less flat and linear than Brutal Mario. As in, they have pits, spikes, enemies and sprites a fair amount, no amount of just running on flat platforms and variation per room.

It's fairly hard not to notice that the level design is better than the level design for carol's Dark Castle or Mirage Palace levels, which basically amount to ten screens of running straight, followed by more running straight in a different room, and maybe some very mildly interesting jumps.

It's also a ton harder.

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You haven't even seen the code for most of the Brutal Mario bosses, or some of the ones dahnamics made for this.

Do you even know what good ASM is? I haven't seen anything anywhere to indicate that you know what the heck half the code in your hack even *does,* let alone that you know enough about assembly to go around saying that any code in particular is good code.



Well, dahnamics says the code is good, and that carol's sprites are gonna be helpful to him. Or as he says, they're good enough they make him feel like a n00b in comparison when it comes to programming. How good his sprites are on the other hand, is debatable.

Never the less, does it really matter? My motto is that if it works, it works. These sprites tend not to have too many glitches, if any, so I think they're fine.

I love how geeks and hackers and coders tend to rant about how bad 'mainstream' systems are coded, despite being the ones making pretty much nothing from their work and not realising that people just want something that works, and don't care less if it's not well coded or designed until it goes wrong.

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1. I'm designing this kinda for the Japanese hacking community more than SMW Central, and will submit it to that atpages hosted hack site that games like SMW YEAHH, Super Mario :p:p:p, Mario LD and Ore World are hosted at. They tend to like fancy stuff more than level design.

So you're going to seek to impress people who couldn't possibly have an idea how little of this game you made. Good to know.

Well, at least until they get to the Japanese-made bosses. Then they might pick up the hint, I guess.



Erm, no. Much of the coding is either by me or by someone from the Japanese community, so they'd definitely know how much I made. Besides, I made far more of this game than you think, I ripped about half the recent graphics used, the entire set of overworld graphics, about three quarters of sprite graphics and various other things. Unless the fact I ripped at least three graphics sets from Wario Land 4 doesn't count as me being the one who managed to convert them into SMW format.

But no, go ahead and assume I made nothing from this hack, despite having made about half the graphics and stuff myself by ripping them from other games. Yes, a fair amount is from Brutal Mario, but most of the rest was ripped by me.

Just from my files, all this was ripped by me:



























The background here:



The background here:



The foreground from the bit in Kirby Superstar with the Heart of Nova (not shown yet).

The foreground and background from Arabian Night in Wario Land 4, inside one of the buildings (not shown or released yet).

The foreground here:



Stuff...



Foreground here:



These overworld graphics:





Is that not stuff that took a freaking lot of hard work to rip?
Originally posted by cheat-master30

Much of the coding is either by me or by someone from the Japanese community

Wait... So do you know ASM or not? I'm genuinely confused at this point. If you do, and I've gone and assumed you don't, I apologize.

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Well, if you want a hint, the levels are 300% less flat and linear than Brutal Mario. As in, they have pits, spikes, enemies and sprites a fair amount, no amount of just running on flat platforms and variation per room.

It's fairly hard not to notice that the level design is better than the level design for carol's Dark Castle or Mirage Palace levels, which basically amount to ten screens of running straight, followed by more running straight in a different room, and maybe some very mildly interesting jumps.

Fair enough.
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It's also a ton harder.

Difficulty isn't necessarily good, though considering that it's Mario Endgame after all I guess it's justified. I personally like higher difficulty most of the time, I just hope you aren't making hyper-complicated levels and filling them with unfair, annoying traps or something. Though I do doubt that, because it's silly.

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I love how geeks and hackers and coders tend to rant about how bad 'mainstream' systems are coded, despite being the ones making pretty much nothing from their work and not realising that people just want something that works, and don't care less if it's not well coded or designed until it goes wrong.

I have a powerful, admittedly rather irrational, dislike of when people don't care that something is done in a sub-par way, even if the results are the same. When it comes to ASM, I've come to feel that the Super NES operates with a certain degree of dignity, and to code poorly for it just doesn't sit well with me.

And, concerning the huge wall of images:
First, my goodness link them next time or something, that's insane.

Second, well, I guess that showed me? Though I do think rips are somewhat lacking in terms of personal touch, I can't really blame people for not being gifted in the graphics department, and it DOES show that effort is being put in on your end.

Third, and somewhat unrelatedly, why is Mario using a different sprite in the SMRPG bg screenie? I'm assuming it's just on a graphics test ROM or something.


But, why do you even want the fancy bosses in this hack? It looks to be an alright hack, as far as I can tell, but a lot the most impressive, memorable parts are going to be the bosses, and you didn't even make most/any of those, as far as anyone can tell. Why bother with the fancy code if it's just going to overshadow all the work you do? It's proven by this thread that people are going to be latching on to the bosses, and overlooking the actual, genuine work you put into this hack. If you don't want people to do that, it seems odd that you continue to put in these fancy bosses.
Originally posted by cheat-master30
Besides, he's a grad student, so respect your elders! Or some manners, wherever those have gone recently.


Oh cut the comments like that already. There you go, back to acting like you know so much about e-etiquette. The users in question have already been warned about dahnamics (who, from what I gather from several, has a habit of flaunting his bosses around). Though I don't agree with the flaming, I don't agree with the supposedly flaunting either.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Every new user who's never heard of hacking much and some professionals think thi hack does look brilliant.


"professionals", huh? Define "professionals". How many people who work in the game design industry have you sent this to and had them test it? How many people have said "the level design is Nintendo quality, the graphics are all beautifully crafted, and the bosses all work so well together?" If anyone actually HAD said that, they need to either have their head examined or need to learn what makes a game fun. If you've found a few select friends who enjoy romps through poorly designed levels with a boss every third step, congratulations. You've successfully appealed to a very small minority of the hacking population.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
You haven't even seen the code for most of the Brutal Mario bosses


Perhaps he hasn't, but myself and several other upper-echelon coders have. Carol's bosses are horrifically coded, and would explode any accurate SNES. As impressive as they may be on the surface, the majority of them are boring, repetitive, and require waiting around. If your ego is that deflated that you need to actually use this approach to appeal to people who only scratch the surface, I weep for the future of hacking.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
, or some of the ones dahnamics made for this.


His bosses are average, but they're consistent. If you got rid of all of the Brutal Mario garbage and whatnot and just used his bosses in an appropriate fashion, you'd actually have some decent boss design on your hands.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Heck, for a third, it's a bit of a show case of what hacks are capable of more than level design.


But it ultimately DOES boil down to level design. Let's use SMWCP for an example. Impressive bosses overall, but it gets overshadowed by the fact that some of the levels were less-than-stellar. The same is going to be the case here, except on a much grander scale. People might get the initial impression of "Holy shit, this looks amazing!" Then they'll actually play it and realize that it's just a conglomeration of graphics, bosses, and pretty much everything from other games which ultimately leads to the negative image ROM hacking and the Japanese have today. Your entire sentence screams of "Hey, look at all of this fancy stuff I crammed in, but in order to get to it, you have to play through these extremely tedious levels. OH BOY." For the record, yes, I've played that "waiting to be moderated" hack you made, and I thought it was one of the worst things I've ever touched in my seven years of SMW hacking. Call that a flame and call me ignorant if you will, but you'd be wrong.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Because most of the comments haven't even addressed the hack, just seen a few Brutal Mario elements and gone 'this hack will automatically be bad' as a result.


But the majority of them HAVE addressed it because of this. The problem here is that this hack follows the same trend as most Japanese hacks. I know you're going for that style, and once again, all the power to you. But for the few who appreciate your mishmash, everyone else will just look down on it.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
He said the levels with one theme looked good, those without looked too clashing, so I've tried to keep all the game's graphics consistent on a per level basis.


I'm curious to know how much this Artemendo guy is related to working with Nintendo, and I'm also interested in taking a look at his game design degree. It appears to me like you're taking the advice of one person who has some skewed idea that because the GFX don't clash on a per-level basis, that suddenly implies they can vary all throughout the game. This has been shot down for ages as a bad design philosophy, and no "serious" game has ever incorporated this.


As always, my thoughts on this still stand, and it seems many others feel the same way. Your ideas on what makes a game good and how you're ultimately trying to win the respect of people who don't hack continues to intrigue me, but I'm afraid unless some major reworking is done, this hack will meet the same fate as that DSU collab thing. (Some) people will think it looks amazing on the surface, but once they actually start playing through it, they'll grow to realize the truth. Perhaps a better goal would be striving to "impress" those who understand game design well, rather than those who are ignorant on the cause.

(and to add a personal blurb of my own, I'm quite fine with ripped graphics, and even the slight clash in most cases. I'm also familiar with how much time it takes to rip graphics and such, especially ones like these, but that is besides the point. As the user above me said, any genuine effort you have put into this -will- be overlooked by the numerous flaws in it. I'm just saying - don't get your hopes up. You will be disappointed in the end.)
Last edited on 2011-02-12 06:30:25 PM by S.N.N..
Originally posted by Extroble
Originally posted by cheat-master30

Much of the coding is either by me or by someone from the Japanese community

Wait... So do you know ASM or not? I'm genuinely confused at this point. If you do, and I've gone and assumed you don't, I apologize.


No. I have a programmer basically working for me to a degree in dahnamics and whoever else contributes. I also have a few people helping with actual custom graphics, having had =D= design the title screen logo, dakress redraw some of the sprites and metalgearhunter and co offer help for some graphics.


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Well, if you want a hint, the levels are 300% less flat and linear than Brutal Mario. As in, they have pits, spikes, enemies and sprites a fair amount, no amount of just running on flat platforms and variation per room.

It's fairly hard not to notice that the level design is better than the level design for carol's Dark Castle or Mirage Palace levels, which basically amount to ten screens of running straight, followed by more running straight in a different room, and maybe some very mildly interesting jumps.

Fair enough.
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It's also a ton harder.

Difficulty isn't necessarily good, though considering that it's Mario Endgame after all I guess it's justified. I personally like higher difficulty most of the time, I just hope you aren't making hyper-complicated levels and filling them with unfair, annoying traps or something. Though I do doubt that, because it's silly.

</div></div>

Depends how you consider unfair. I'm trying to make it mostly fair, but wind and brambles in the style of Animal Antics exists in one level, and I have a TAS sprite which is literally 'keep moving or die'.

But this game does have a difficulty curve I guess, and some levels and bosses are fairly easy and some hard.



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And, concerning the huge wall of images:
First, my goodness link them next time or something, that's insane.

Second, well, I guess that showed me? Though I do think rips are somewhat lacking in terms of personal touch, I can't really blame people for not being gifted in the graphics department, and it DOES show that effort is being put in on your end.

Third, and somewhat unrelatedly, why is Mario using a different sprite in the SMRPG bg screenie? I'm assuming it's just on a graphics test ROM or something.



It's a test ROM for the one with the Smithy BG. The others are in my current one, that one needs to be moved over. Considering the difficulty, I'm probably just gonna nuke a simple background and use the map16 file, because I'm not gonna even try to reconstruct that tile by tile.

Aa for the others, they're a bit impersonal because I'm not an artist. I'm a Mario fan first and foremost, and drawing isn't my strong point. The neon one and castle Bleck ones are technically custom drawn, and you can tell how basic they look for reference.

I still plan to rip graphics for a few more things, like Crescent Moon Village (to use as a hub level), some new overworld graphics for some areas (to fix some palette issues), KAOS from Donkey Kong Country 3, Kleever from the second game, King Zing from the second game, Smithy for a final boss and a few more Wario Land sets, maybe Forty Below Fridge, Golden Passage, Curious Factory, Hotel Horror, etc.

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But, why do you even want the fancy bosses in this hack? It looks to be an alright hack, as far as I can tell, but a lot the most impressive, memorable parts are going to be the bosses, and you didn't even make most/any of those, as far as anyone can tell. Why bother with the fancy code if it's just going to overshadow all the work you do? It's proven by this thread that people are going to be latching on to the bosses, and overlooking the actual, genuine work you put into this hack. If you don't want people to do that, it seems odd that you continue to put in these fancy bosses.


Because put frankly, I like gimmicks, ASM and bosses. Part of why I made this hack was to give me a hack to test sprites I get sent, in a similar way I guess to Mario Fantasy. Besides, the bosses don't overshadow it too much, especially considering each resource is as good as the next. The final level for instance has about twenty graphics sets I made, about four to six bosses, about 40 rooms, a few different sets of music and a huge amounts of sprites and generators, and they're all about as fancy as each other.

I also use the bosses because frankly, they fit the levels best. Can you honestly have a Milky Way Wishes level without Marx or Mega Man one without Wily? And hey, if I want to make said themed levels, I felt I may as well used the best possible resources for the job, hence all the fancy graphics, fancy music and the fanciest looking bosses I could find that fit the atmosphere.

Let's face it, this guy fits perfectly after a Kirby themed level, and it's best if he acts exactly like this, don't you think?

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w8fBGMW8daY?fs=1&hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w8fBGMW8daY?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

I'd rather have an overshadowing fancy boss that fits the level than a fairly badly done one with a knock off of said boss. Artemendo said it best with this quote:

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I always care most about actual changes to game mechanics


Hence it's best to have an overly fancy boss which acts like the original than a custom made one which doesn't. And it's why I'm going to great pains to try and make my map16 act like it should.
You know, I've been watching this hack for a while, and what you've been doing for it for quite a while, but I'm sorry, this is just god awful. Your graphics do clash, and I dont know where the heck you got the idea that they dont, for example, the smb3 neo lighted floor and that castle background just do not work, not at all, and this is only one example, though a FEW screens have levels that have appropriate gfx matches. As for the level design, what exactly is there to comment on? All you've really done is show rips graphics you've made with 1 level screens, and even those are out-shadowed by all the sprite screenshots showing just how many sprites (that you didnt make) you can cram in here. Page after page I see nothing but GFX rips of tilesets and bosses that probably arent bosses that are on layer 2, which leads me to my next point, from what I can see your bosses are either all from brutal mario, japanese sprite packs or from here, or are edits of the noob boss. Im sorry, but none of those even looked remotely fun to fight against in the least, especially whe I know how repetitive dahnamic's bosses, the noob boss, and all of carols bosses seem to be. This just isnt working. Now, I also see that you assume you have done alot of work yourself and that you deserve credit too for this, which is fine however, but saying you make just as much of an effort as say for example Carol, who most sprites you are using, is complete bullshit. It takes you what, roughly a few hours maybe a day to rip a GFX set, where carol has been coding his bosses for quite a while to make sure they are set up right, sorry, but ASM takes more effort than to rip gfx, and I dont feel that you deserve most of the credit you expect to get there.

So, tldr: This doesnt look good at all, and I doubt anyone is going to play it save for the few friends you have that will play it with biased opinions, YOU SHOULD SERIOUSLY RECONSIDER HOW THIS HACK IS BEING MADE.
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I'm curious to know how much this Artemendo guy is related to working with Nintendo, and I'm also interested in taking a look at his game design degree. It appears to me like you're taking the advice of one person who has some skewed idea that because the GFX don't clash on a per-level basis, that suddenly implies they can vary all throughout the game. This has been shot down for ages as a bad design philosophy, and no "serious" game has ever incorporated this.


http://www.blogger.com/profile/11087731375304302105


More a Mario theorist (and yes, I'm associated with the blog, but I don't mention hacking at all other than as why too much of the Koopalings would be a bad thing), and a pretty good artist and writer.

Keep in mind he's somewhat extreme about the Mario aspect. As in, any one slip up on continuity and it'll be torn to shreds. Don't mention Sonic or any other platformer character, he kinda despises their very guts for existing.

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This has been shot down for ages as a bad design philosophy, and no "serious" game has ever incorporated this.


My inspiration is more a bit Super Smash Bros/Brutal Mario/Mushroom Kingdom Fusion or whatever, you know, massive cross overs between universes with gimmicks from those universes and various characters. It's not meant to be professional.

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but I'm afraid unless some major reworking is done, this hack will meet the same fate as that DSU collab thing


Not really, that died because my old site closed down out of my lack of interest in it. No one continue a collab for a dead site, so I decided to quit the thing. I don't think I'd ever go back now, because my skill in the technical side has advanced so much I wouldn't be able to sit through a single level and I'd scream at bad palettes, cut off, poor level design, etc constantly.

On that note, at least one person thinks the DSU hack would be better than A SMW Central Production:

http://nintendo3dscommunity.com/index.php?/topic/663-what-actually-happened-to-that-hack-we-were-working-on/

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The problem here is that this hack follows the same trend as most Japanese hacks.


I guess our tastes differ, because I absolutely adore Japanese hacks, and always wanted to make a hack like someone over there would make.

Remember, for me, Super Mario LD is pretty much the best hack ever. This hack is a bit inspired by it and Brutal Mario in style, the whole 'gimmicks beyond all else' part.

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For the record, yes, I've played that "waiting to be moderated" hack you made, and I thought it was one of the worst things I've ever touched in my seven years of SMW hacking.


Compared to Youtube hacks, Ore World 2 and other such stuff? Besides, I don't like said hack myself, and this hack isn't anything like it. I think a one world hack got killed even worse when I toned it down to the point the already thin on the ground level design just didn't exist any more.

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Then they'll actually play it and realize that it's just a conglomeration of graphics, bosses, and pretty much everything from other games which ultimately leads to the negative image ROM hacking and the Japanese have today.


I'm trying to make decent level design though, at least, I want to make it better at level design than the likes of Brutal Mario, and the levels are hopefully not going to be flat and boring.

But I guess I'm appealing to a different crowd, the people who might watch Brutal Mario and think it's automatically the best thing ever because it has Marx in it.

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Perhaps he hasn't, but myself and several other upper-echelon coders have. Carol's bosses are horrifically coded, and would explode any accurate SNES. As impressive as they may be on the surface, the majority of them are boring, repetitive, and require waiting around


Well, be glad to know I'm not using that many of 'em, and the ones I am tend to be over quite quickly.

On that note, if anyone is a 'professional' coder, I could send them one of carol's fancier bosses and see what they'd say about it quality wise. For example, if you want something interesting, tell me exactly why say, his Bow boss, or Dark Lich, or Arch Demon, or Dragon Emperor boss is badly coded from a programmer's perspective. I can hand out the ASM.

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If anyone actually HAD said that, they need to either have their head examined or need to learn what makes a game fun.


So you're saying dahnamics, LinksDarkArrows and Azentiger need psychiatric help? That's very nice of you.

And for reference:

http://www.youtube.com/user/linksdarkarrows

http://www.youtube.com/user/azentiger

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who, from what I gather from several, has a habit of flaunting his bosses around


But he doesn't. I think I remember seeing maybe a topic or two about them, and the rest of said posts were in the ASM show off thread. Hardly a habit.

If he does, point out some topics where he boasts in PM.

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There you go, back to acting like you know so much about e-etiquette.


Well, I am studying ethics. And let's face it, nerd ethics are so flawed, especially their complaints about copyright. Funny that, if it's of big companies, it's apparently evil, yet stealing some individual's work should be still illegal. Want it both ways?
You kind of live in a whole different universe than us, who are those people you keep referencing to, what is waluigious, since when do 'Mario theorists' exist and why and why do you keep comparing your hack to Brutal Mario to make it look good when Brutal Mario itself is quite bad and you actually admit that yourself?

Also, ripping a tileset can hardly be called "making it myself" as you called it above, "making it myself" would be sitting down, opening yy-chr and aligning pixels till your fingers bleed.
Originally posted by leod
You kind of live in a whole different universe than us, who are those people you keep referencing to, what is waluigious, since when do 'Mario theorists' exist and why and why do you keep comparing your hack to Brutal Mario to make it look good when Brutal Mario itself is quite bad and you actually admit that yourself?

Also, ripping a tileset can hardly be called "making it myself" as you called it above, "making it myself" would be sitting down, opening yy-chr and aligning pixels till your fingers bleed.


Except a lot of people would have to admit it takes a long damn time and a lot of work to rip graphics, especially Wario Land 4 ones which take about four palette rows and have ridiculous intricate designs, or anything from Donkey Kong Country.

And yes, Mario theorists do exist. Not as many as for the Zelda series, but they do exist, and at least one that's not me likes this hack.

On that note, where did all the Brutal Mario haters come from? I mean, enough people liked it that it's featured and has something like 150-200 really high ratings, and many good reviews... is there some hatred of the game among regulars I'm not getting here?
Yea, Brutal Mario is hated amongst regulars because we can see what's behind the scenes, like bad level design, amazingly looking but really repetitive bosses that every new user would freak out about etc.

Brutal Mario just is more appealing to people new to SMW Hacking.
Well don't pass judgement on this hack until it's out, I promise very much strongly that this hack will have good level design, and still look fancy. If I wanted to, I'd even take bets on that.

I still can't see how Brutal Mario's bosses are all repetitive though, because many act just like they do in the original games. Are you honestly saying Marx was boring in Kirby Superstar, K Rool in Donkey Kong Country 2 or Dumb Drum in the first DKC game? Their attack pattern was identical.

Carol's Dumb Drum boss:

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/OeamIIj-suw?fs=1&hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/OeamIIj-suw?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

Rare's version:

<object width="480" height="390"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/KKOgyZovuPI?fs=1&hl=en_GB"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/KKOgyZovuPI?fs=1&hl=en_GB" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="390"></embed></object>

Carol's is a bit more complicated, but it's not much more repetitive.
Last edited on 2011-02-12 07:55:15 PM by cheat-master30.
What kind of "final overworld" would this be? Mario and Luigi series bosses floating around on the map? I don't understand why this even exists. Why is there a random mecha chomp just sitting on the overworld willy nilly like that. I like how you said this earlier in the thread something along the lines of "which Brutal Mario boss should I use?" and gave a list of around 5 bosses. When people like you get a hold of fairly well known hackers stuff, you use it in terrible ways which I imagine would bring a tear to the creator of said resources eyes. I mean this in the worst way possible, because look at the abomination you have created. It actually is a nice thing to know who is using your stuff, that is why I don't release my stuff very often, and if I do they aren't very complicated things I spend a lot of my time on. I don't want my advanced bosses and sprites being overused or being used in terrible hacks.

For about a month I've been trying to find an example of a hack I don't want my bosses being used in, and I have just found it. Now when people ask me why I don't release my bosses I can just link them this thread and it will become perfectly clear to them why I don't release my stuff.

By the way, I am curious, did you actually get permission to use Carol's stuff? Because if you didn't, I really think you should, people don't act too kindly toward people who use/upload their stuff without them knowing, especially if its not in a truly public place like our custom sprites section. I say this because Carol didn't upload his sprites to a very well known area; he did it on his website but never posted a link to them on the website itself, likely so he could keep a backup of his stuff but not have it being used by people like you. The situation was similar with (I may not know the complete story, I am going on what I have heard) the people making VIP 5, they had their own uploader to share resources for the hack and I imagine hoped it would be between the people working on the hack, that's why they weren't very happy with the videos uploaded of the hack before it was done.

I could go on with this, but I have better things to do, like work on my own hack. Also, I am going to have to tell you, its not really helping you to post videos of other hacks/games bosses and nothing of your own, and saying how similar they are to Carol's bosses. We don't care, show us your hack. And don't tell us to "don't pass judgement on this hack until it's out," because we've not seen anything more than sub-par screenshots and what you tell us, and I can easily tell you that isn't enough to convince us "that this hack will have good level design, and still look fancy."

EDIT: And also, you posted the same video twice, unless Carol was making a hack where you play as Donkey Kong.
Last edited on 2011-02-12 07:45:43 PM by Sonikku.
The only reason why Bm is impressive in my opinion is because of the fact that he coded everything from scratch YEARS before anyone on smwcentral could come close to replicating the quality of his ASM.

I've played his bosses many times, they are great albeit a little repetitive. I don't need to see them in a completely unrelated game.

EDIT: I agree with everything you said sonikku.
Last edited on 2011-02-12 08:27:23 PM by Flandre Scarlet.
If you're showing the same video twice then it will surely make the two bosses look identical.
Also, just because the boss remake is quite accurate doesn't mean that it's fun to play. A lot of people here played DKC or Kirby Super Star, and having the exact some boss fight as in the original game doesn't really make it more exciting or better at all.

You gotta learn to be creative yourself instead of just taking random stuff from everyone and everywhere.
Well, for anyone who isn't involving in what's become a fire fight, some gfx I ripped myself for a single room in a level somewhere:



It's from a level in Wario Land 4.

Oh, and no, I didn't post the same video twice. It was comparing carol's boss of Dumb Drum to the original game's version.

Oh, and God, Sonikku involved in this argument. It's already bad enough you insulted dahnamics behind his back and said his bosses were awful, now you start arguing here as well?

Edit: Fixed the videos.
Last edited on 2011-02-12 07:55:40 PM by cheat-master30.
Originally posted by cheat-master30
On that note, at least one person thinks the DSU hack would be better than A SMW Central Production:


Yeah, that post really looks legit. I love all of the reasons why they said SMWCP was bad too. It just looks like a hater post, but nice try.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Remember, for me, Super Mario LD is pretty much the best hack ever. This hack is a bit inspired by it and Brutal Mario in style, the whole 'gimmicks beyond all else' part.


Great. A lot of people don't, and I'm simply telling you to expect a negative response on this overall.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Compared to Youtube hacks, Ore World 2 and other such stuff?


YouTube hacks are made by people who open LM once, rearrange stuff to learn the ropes, and post it thinking no one has ever hacked before and they are a legend. Out of genuine attempts at release, yes, that was the worst thing I've ever played.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
For example, if you want something interesting, tell me exactly why say, his Bow boss, or Dark Lich, or Arch Demon, or Dragon Emperor boss is badly coded from a programmer's perspective. I can hand out the ASM.


Writing to the VRAM during a blank would cause crashes. That's just one example. I sure hope Carol gave you explicit permission to distribute those bosses as well

Originally posted by cheat-master30
So you're saying dahnamics, LinksDarkArrows and Azentiger need psychiatric help? That's very nice of you.


Way to read into my post literally. Perhaps I'll use the term "I'd love to know what they consider bad" then.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
Well, I am studying ethics. And let's face it, nerd ethics are so flawed, especially their complaints about copyright. Funny that, if it's of big companies, it's apparently evil, yet stealing some individual's work should be still illegal. Want it both ways?


"Nerd" ethics are indeed flawed, but so are yours. That puts the ethics argument at a stalemate, which it has been at since ROM hacking began.

Originally posted by cheat-master30

Oh, and no, I didn't post the same video twice. It was comparing carol's boss of Dumb Drum to the original game's version.


That was before you edited it, yeah.

You know, all people here want to do is help you improve the hack. It's sort of unfortunate that everything is taken as "pure negativity". Believe it or not, people here aren't stupid, and they've all played as many Mario games as those so-called "theorists" (I just laugh each time that word is used). Their opinion holds as much weight as others, with the added fact that the majority of commenters have been hacking for years. Perhaps you should actually consider that "Hey! I can either improve some aspects of this hack, or make a hack of my own accord but ultimately end up disappointed when 99% of people hate it!"





Originally posted by Flandre Scarlet
The only reason why Bm is impressive in my opinion is because of the fact that he coded everything from scratch YEARS before anyone on smwcentral could come close to replicating the quality of his ASM.


Actually, people on the scene have been able to do stuff like this long before Carol - they just haven't. Consider people like Smallhacker, BMF54123, mikeyk, and more of the veterans. Carol was more or less one of the first to publicize the idea. They basically gave the means for Carol to do it though (see: Sprite Tool).


Also, I can't believe you managed to bring Sonikku to this thread of all people, cheat-master30. One of the most known coders who is lenient to almost everyone in sharing his work, and you actually managed to piss HIM off? Wow - I didn't realize that this hack had angered that many people.
Last edited on 2011-02-12 08:06:13 PM by S.N.N..
Wow, cheat, um... A couple of things...

1) I really had no idea you were working on a hack still. Whatever so happened to the one we had been working on for oh so long? :S

2) I just browsed through some of the screencaps myself, and I have to agree with most of the things people here have been saying. The graphics kinda... hurt my eyes, not gonna lie.

3) I must say, I've never seen you this argumentative before. Why do you feel a need to defend this, when it's somewhat clearly not that great?



:(
Originally posted by cheat-master30
Well, I am studying ethics.

Originally posted by cheat-master30
flame war material about copyright and such

Wooooo.

Quote

Can you honestly have a Milky Way Wishes level without Marx or Mega Man one without Wily?

Can you honestly have a Mario rom-hack without over-using themes taken directly and unashamedly from other games?

Quote

I promise very much strongly that this hack will have good level design, and still look fancy. If I wanted to, I'd even take bets on that.


Why don't you make this thread about the level design, or something? I don't understand this complete lack of videos associated with your hack. It'd be just swell if you could actually show us some of this great level design of yours, instead of just telling us about it.

All we have to talk about is the rip-only graphics, the bosses and sprites other people coded, and our opinions thereof. You expect us to take into consideration that the level design is good, but then don't actually show any!

Quote
Well don't pass judgement on this hack until it's out

...
Why do you even have a W.I.P. thread for it, if you don't want people to talk about it until it's done? All this trouble, for something you don't even want?
Originally posted by S.N.N.

Actually, people on the scene have been able to do stuff like this long before Carol - they just haven't. Consider people like Smallhacker, BMF54123, mikeyk, and more of the veterans. Carol was more or less one of the first to publicize the idea. They basically gave the means for Carol to do it though (see: Sprite Tool).


Oh yeah, forgot about smalls and mikey, thanks snn.

Also Romi was doing this stuff at about the same time as carol.
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