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SMW hacks on SNES; do they work?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hack Discussion - SMW hacks on SNES; do they work?
Pages: « 1 2 » Thread Closed
It has come to my attention that many hacks don't work on an actual snes. I'm using the snes powerpak to play these. I assume the biggest offender is music being incomplatible causing the game to crash. It's scared me the first time it happened-- a bunch of loud ringing/etc sounds. I've only tested a few but here's what's good and what's not..


Works!
Brutal Mario- No problems, yet?
Super Puzzle World- 32x32 layer 2 OW event graphics are corrupt

Doesn't Work!
A Super Mario Thing- Invalid music, crashes
Mario Gives Up- Invalid music, crashes
Mario's Keytastrophe- Invalid music, crashes
Super Mario Bros. 3X- Invalid music, crashes
VIP Mario 4- Invalid music, crashes
VIP Mario 5- Water levels and the 2 bosses have corrupt BG, crashes. Invalid music, crashes
With all due respect, are hacks meant to be played on the SNES this way? Should we just stick with emulators/ROMs in this case? Personally, I can't see why hacks would work with an SNES anyway.
I understand your view. However, I feel the opposite. I'm pretty good at 2 things, art and math. To me programming the snes is the perfect combination of the 2 with the addition of nostalgia. It's triple win. I mean, you hack right? Why hack when you can make a game with gamemaker or flash? I'm 100% sure you can do anything the snes can do with those 2 mediums and much more.
AFAIK, Custom Music breaks on the SNES, resulting in crash/freeze.
It might be faster to just run hacks in bsnes and see if they work there. If they break there, they break on the SNES. Most hacks won't work on the SNES, including EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THE HIGHEST RATED HACKS ON THE SITE (These change so much, I haven't checked back recenly, it's possible some that do work have gone to the top). It's not all custom music, just badly chosen custom music.

Originally posted by The Thunder
With all due respect, are hacks meant to be played on the SNES this way?

Yes.

Originally posted by The Thudner
Should we just stick with emulators/ROMs in this case? Personally, I can't see why hacks would work with an SNES anyway.

... They are games written for the SNES. Why wouldn't they work on the SNES?


Edit: This has been brought up a number of times. Sadly, we are incapable of penetrating the ignorance of a large mass of the users for this site. *Shrug*
Last edited on 2010-12-26 11:27:51 PM by HuFlungDu.
Originally posted by HuFlungDu
They are games written for the SNES.


They are games written for the SNES emulators for the majority of people who hack SMW. Before that SNES compatibility stuff came out, all hacks were games written for SNES emulators.

Most of people really don't care about this compatibility stuff. It's not ignorance. People grew up using SNES9x and ZSNES as their emulators to play hacks, and they will continue using it. For me, Bsnes has way too high requeriments for my computer. It's very slow.
N-SPC patch required music crashes on the SNES, the simple ones worked fine for me.
Originally posted by Icicle Teck
They are games written for the SNES emulators for the majority of people who hack SMW. Before that SNES compatibility stuff came out, all hacks were games written for SNES emulators.


WHAT!?!? Before that compatibility stuff came out? Compatibility has been going on since emulators were first created, the creators have always been trying to make their emulators more accuracte. Eventually, ZSNES will even fix itself, then you are screwed if you don't follw compatibility, because there will be no current emulators left that will play your hack. I guess if you don't want anyone to play your hack in a few years, that's your business.

You know, why even have them be compatible at all? Why even call them SNES EMULATORS? Emulator means it EMULATES THE SNES. Meaning it DOES WHAT THE SNES DOES. If an emulator doesn't do that, how useful is it?

Originally posted by Icicle Teck
Most of people really don't care about this compatibility stuff. It's not ignorance. People grew up using SNES9x and ZSNES as their emulators to play hacks, and they will continue using it.

I'm fine with people using snes9x 98% of the time. It's pretty accurate actually. ZSNES needs to go (For testing hacks). Yes, it is ignorance, but there is clearly no point in arguing this with you.
Originally posted by HuFlungDu
Before that compatibility stuff came out?


...I mean on smwc. If you look back, about a year, or two, almost nobody cared here about compatibility of the hacks on a real snes. Why, for example, a bunch of addmusics were created, if some songs break up on a real snes?

Originally posted by HuFlungDu
I guess if you don't want anyone to play your hack in a few years, that's your business.


Right now I have no intention to make a hack. Sorry.

Originally posted by HuFlungDu
Yes, it is ignorance


So, just because I can't run the almost perfect emulator, bsnes, on my computer, that makes me ignorant? Really? So my computer is also ignorant! Cool.
Last edited on 2010-12-27 11:51:56 AM by Shinnok.
bsnes has existed for 6 years, and why are you getting so defensive?

anyway, hacks should be made to play on a snes. if it doesn't work then it's not a 'real' hack. using the MSU1 chip is more 'real' than 75% of the hacks on this site.
Originally posted by Icicle Teck
...I mean on smwc. If you look back, about a year, or two, when bsnes didn't exist, almost nobody cared here about compatibility of the hacks on a real snes. Why, for example, a bunch of addmusics were created, if some songs break up on a real snes?

Originally posted by bsnes' homepage
bsnes is an emulator that began development on 2004-10-14.

bsnes is older than SMWCentral (As Ixtab so kindly pointed out). Also, even were that true, I have always cared about compatibility, and I'm sure everyone who preaches about it now has always cared about it. The question is, was it known? I had no idea it was an issue, assuming all hack makers and emulator makers would go for SNES compatibility. I don't blame people back then, because it just wasn't known that it was an issue. I only care about the people NOW, who are ignoring the clear arguments for compatibility. As I've summed up before:

Originally posted by Me
Arguments for accuracy/compatibility:

A) Hacks will be broken when crappy emulators around now are finally deprecated. As byuu puts it:
Originally posted by byuu
When nobody can run your game in ten years, that's your problem, not mine.


B) If your hack only works on 1 emulator (even now), there will be quite a few people who won't play it, just because it doesn't work on their emulator and they don't want to get a new one.

C) Anyone can use bsnes, it's not hard to get and with the newest version can run on "a box of rocks". This should allow easy testing for compatibility.

Arguments against accuracy/compatibility:


Originally posted by Icicle Teck
Right now I have no intention to make a hack. Sorry.

I wasn't just talking about you. That's for anyone.

Originally posted by Icicle Teck
So, just because I can't run the almost perfect emulator, bsnes, on my computer, that makes me ignorant? Really? So my computer is also ignorant! Cool.

I could care less what you use to play hacks. Since you aren't making a hack, I don't care what emulator you use. The problem is for people who only test their hack in zsnes and it won't work in any real emulator (Or on the SNES). Also: I don't know how old your computer is, but have you tried the newer versions with the performance core? That can be run on most computers, and even if it can't be done at full speed, it should be done a couple of times just to test compatibility. You don't need to do all your testing on bsnes (Not even I do that, especially when I'm just editing levels, I use snes9x).
If hacks should be played on an SNES, wouldn't we have to choose just one? I mean, for many hacks, one would have to own multiple copies of the original Super Mario World.
Originally posted by Araragi
bsnes has existed for 6 years


Oh, seriously? I really thought it was really new. Thank you for saying that as I said nonsense.

HuFlungDu: OK. If that compatibility stuff is really something that people should pay attention.. Something has to be done then. There's a great quantity of users who doesn't care about it. These people need to be convinced, what's the best way to do it? Prohibiting hacks that can't be played in any other emulator than ZSNES, for example? Denying custom music that breaks in bsnes/real snes?

Originally posted by HuFlungDu
, but have you tried the newer versions with the performance core? That can be run on most computers, and even if it can't be done at full speed, it should be done a couple of times just to test compatibility.


Also, even with that perfomance mode from bsnes, it runs in a turtle speed, 15 fps. There's no way to test even a single level.. :(
Originally posted by Icicle Teck
These people need to be convinced, what's the best way to do it? Prohibiting hacks that can't be played in any other emulator than ZSNES, for example? Denying custom music that breaks in bsnes/real snes?

I've been proposing that for a while. No one seems to want to do it. I can't really do anything about it. (I think both of those are very good ideas). The only way to convince people is to have a large staff movement against broken music, same as how everybody now hates floating munchers. If only Smallhacker were still in power...

Originally posted by Icicle Teck
Also, even with that perfomance mode from bsnes, it runs in a turtle speed, 15 fps. There's no way to test even a single level.. :(

You don't need to test a whole level, just high risk stuff. Music, VRAM stuff, expansion chip stuff, basically anything that has to do with registers should be tested in bsnes, and can be tested without getting very far into the level. Level design stuff doesn't need to be tested on bsnes, since that doesn't cause problems. Most ASM doesn't even need to be tested on bsnes, just the more advanced stuff.

Originally posted by The Thunder
If hacks should be played on an SNES, wouldn't we have to choose just one? I mean, for many hacks, one would have to own multiple copies of the original Super Mario World.

Just 1 flash cart would let one play as many hacks as they wanted. Honestly, I don't expect anyone to buy a flashcart to play hacks, but I think those that do shouldn't be snubbed by our broken music.
Last edited on 2010-12-27 01:23:19 PM by HuFlungDu.
While I agree with you that compatability is very important, I think the attitude of pro-compatability people tends to be crap more often than not. Its way more whining about how stupid people are for not making bsnes/snes compatible hacks than actually helping and instructing.

While some people definetely don't care about the compatability issues, I think the ones that put in a lot of time and effort into their hacks do. I personally spent hours pouring over my hacks to look for even the smallest instance of cutoff and other minor bugs. It never occured to me that there could be compatability issues with my music. I saw that by not using echo-heavy music (which I thought was purged from the SMWC muis archives) and not using the -se command with addmusic, that you could have a compatable hack. I tried both of these and I still ran into issues.

I think instead of complaining about compatability issues, more education is needed. Come up with a tutorial to create a compatable hack or some other way that is relatively straightforward. The only way I know for sure is by using pure-vanilla music and I do want a better option than that.
Originally posted by HuFlungSno
words

I understand your point of view as to why hacks should be compatible with a real SNES, but I feel I should defend those who only bother to test their hacks on more inaccurate emulators.
I was actually working on my hack earlier today and I decided that I would try to make it as compitable with all the emulators as I could. However, I tested my hack on BSNES and while it worked fine at first (no crashes or invalid music or anything), I noticed that actually some of the sound effects were glitching the music up, most likely due to the fact that I used the -se command with Romi's AddMusic. I actually made an attempt to fix it by instead patching MORE.asm to my ROM with Carol's MORE.bin. However, this caused the music to glitch up pretty badly. Because of this, I decided that maybe it wasn't worth it to try to get my hack to run perfectly on BSNES if it meant just limiting myself more.
Besides, honestly who really uses BSNES other than to test hacks? A majority of the users don't even play the hacks here on a real SNES, they either use ZSNES or Snes9x. So as long as a hack is fully functional on both of those emulators, I really don't see how it would be that much of a problem. Sure, maybe 10 years from now people may not be able to play them, but for now I think it's just best if we stick to using those emulators. I think what really needs to be done is for someone to make an addmusic that's fully compatible with BSNES, since that seems to be the biggest issue.
Whooo long post, well, here goes.

Originally posted by HuFlungSno
The only way to convince people is to have a large staff movement against broken music, same as how everybody now hates floating munchers. If only Smallhacker were still in power...

I dont see what Smallhacker being in power has to do with any of this. Besides, if the staff thought that this was such a big deal currently, then I'm fairly sure they would have done a music wipe a while ago, in such case, it's not and they didnt. Sure it could be in the future however, as emulators are becoming more and more accurate.

Originally posted by HuFlungSno
You know, why even have them be compatible at all? Why even call them SNES EMULATORS? Emulator means it EMULATES THE SNES. Meaning it DOES WHAT THE SNES DOES. If an emulator doesn't do that, how useful is it?


Well, that depends from person to person, if I am able to actually play the game with working sound and controls and a good framerate, I view an emulator as useful. It's an emulator and it's as "real" as the other ones, it does just that, mimicking a SNES so I can play console games on it. It emulates the game for me, which is almost the exact same thing as playing it on a SNES. As far as I'm concerned, accuracy is just a bonus. People use ZSNES because it allows them to use what they want and they have to worry about less compatibility issues. It's understandable, even if it is less accurate. It lets them play what they make where as other emulators may not due to compatibility issues. In an essence they can really just enjoy themselves while hacking without having many limitations in mind, and while this isnt your personal standard for how things are done, it's their choice.

Originally posted by HuFlungSno

This has been brought up a number of times. Sadly, we are incapable of penetrating the ignorance of a large mass of the users for this site. *Shrug*


It's not so much ignorance as it is a personal choice, though there may be people just starting out that dont know about other emulators, but Im not sure if that counts as ignorance or a lack of understanding. You cant please everyone. There are bound to be people who generally care if hacks work on the SNES or not, but the majority of SMW hackers don't really care as long as they have something that plays their hack with working sound and good framerate, in which ZSNES as inacurate as it is, does just that.

Originally posted by Ixtab

hacks should be made to play on a snes. if it doesn't work then it's not a 'real' hack. using the MSU1 chip is more 'real' than 75% of the hacks on this site.


As far as I'm concerned, editing any data at all in the game is a 'real" hack. This is just your opinion, there are some who will agree, and some who will not. To me a hack that differentiates itself from SMW in even the smallest thing makes it a "real" hack. The data is changed. If anything compatibility only means that your edited data can actually work on the system intended, but we dont play it in the SNES do we? We play them on emulators. They are NOT the SNES, and they never will be, no matter how accurate they get. People base their hack compatibility based on what they can use to run it smoothly, and as far as Im concerned I have no problem with that, and Im sure others will agree.

So, I guess I'm defending the people who dont care for compatibility here. And I also agree with Jimmy that an Addmusic that is BSNES compatible should be made.
Quote
Im not sure if that counts as ignorance or a lack of understanding.


Ignorance is a lack of understanding.

Quote
org $8000
db $80,$FD

Do me a favor and patch that to a rom and try running it on a super nintendo, or since you can't use that-- the next best thing, bsnes. What happens? I'm pretty sure it crashes. I made a pretty cool hack right? Well, that's what these hacks might as well be. I get the same result whether I make a shitty patch or patch a shitty ips to a rom.

Quote
They are NOT the SNES, and they never will be, no matter how accurate they get. People base their hack compatibility based on what they can use to run it smoothly, and as far as Im concerned I have no problem with that, and Im sure others will agree.


You're forgetting that emulators are trying to be the SNES. Techincally a computer program is not a physical machine. But if you get the same result either way, what's the difference? I'm pretty sure there are only 2 games that currently don't work on bsnes. This is not because the snes emulation code doesn't work right, it's because they use special chips that are not within the snes. So if you wanna get really technical, bsnes is an snes.

Another example: eat an apple. now eat something apple flavored. There's a difference right? It tastes like something apple flavored. Okay, now play a game on bsnes. Now play that game on an snes. Tell the differences you see. I'm curious.

Quote
Honestly, I don't expect anyone to buy a flashcart to play hacks, but I think those that do shouldn't be snubbed by our broken music.

Everytime someone makes a bad hack, you know that I get snubbed. At least 1 person.

I'm mad (well not really but it's annoying), that all of you can make 'hacks' to play on ZSNES1.42 and I can't play them the way I should be able to play. Even when I started getting into hacks some 4 years ago I WISHED I could have played them on my television, but at that time I couldn't. I settled for playing on a computer. Now that I finally CAN play on a television, most of them don't work. I would bet 67$ (all I have bro) that the majority of people would prefer to to play their hacks on a television, on an snes if they could. Until the staff decide to start removing that stuff I guess I just have to 'deal with it'. That's cool if I'm on 4chan and all but are people really like that? I thought the humor from that came from the fact that people are trying to be ignorant and that's not really how they are.
Originally posted by Ixtab

Ignorance is a lack of understanding.

Oh okay, I was fuzzy on that. Thanks.

Originally posted by Ixtab

Do me a favor and patch that to a rom and try running it on a super nintendo, or since you can't use that-- the next best thing, bsnes. What happens? I'm pretty sure it crashes. I made a pretty cool hack right


I have no clue what you're trying to justify with that piece of code because I tried it in all 3 emulators and the game ran fine, and yes, it is a hack, you edited the game coding somewhat. A very small hack, but regardless a hack.

Originally posted by Ixtab

Well, that's what these hacks might as well be. I get the same result whether I make a shitty patch or patch a shitty ips to a rom.

So, you're basically calling hacks that cant be played in BSNES or on the SNES "shitty" then? Just because it doesnt work on a real SNES like you want it to doesnt make it "shitty", not at all.

Originally posted by Ixtab

You're forgetting that emulators are trying to be the SNES. Techincally a computer program is not a physical machine. But if you get the same result either way,


I know what an emulator is, and what they try to accomplish.
Also, BSNES can mimic a SNES nearly flawlessly I'm not denying that, but that in turn does not make it an actual SNES, no matter how technical you want to get about it. Does this make cheese product the same thing as cheese, because it tastes and looks exactly like cheese? No, it does not. My opinion is that the SNES is just the SNES, its the thing I plug into the wall and hook up to my TV to play stuff in, and BSNES itself is an emulator, something that was created to mimic the SNES. For all I care BSNES can be the very same thing as the SNES and emulate everything perfectly and match the SNES in every way, but that does not change the fact that it is an emulator and not the actual SNES, it is only an emulator, which is what most people play SMW Hacks and other roms on. Not everyone has the patience to go online find a flash cart for sale, wait for it to get there and then dump roms from a 20 year old console just so they can play their favorite game on the SNES which is also another reason that compatibility isnt much of an issue here. Not anywhere in my post did I say that BSNES was inferior either, I was simply stating that it is an emulator. All Im saying is that these 2 will never be one and the same.
Last edited on 2010-12-27 06:40:43 PM by Adam.
Quote
Not everyone has the patience to go online find a flash cart for sale, wait for it to get[...]

But because I was patient enough to buy a flash cart I get the short end of the stick?

Also, bad patch. Try this instead: my arugement will make more sense.
Quote
org $008001
abc1: bra adc0
org $008004
abc0: bra abc1


Anyway, I know the mods/users mostly don't care. If you do care about it, check the site in my signature to help out. Otherwise, I'll be doing it myself. I want to be able to play my hack on a snes s if anything, I'm doing it for myself.

edit: fixed the org haha
edit2: Also, I should just back up my statement again. If I were to patch a rom with somethng that crashes the emulator. It's a bad(shit) patch. A hack is a patch. Now let's say my snes is an emulator. If I were to patch my rom and loaded it up in my 'emulator' and it crashes. It's bad(shit) patch.

Really, you would be singing a different tune if this was the other way around. (meaning: it works on SNES but not on emulators).
Last edited on 2010-12-27 06:44:16 PM by Ixtab.
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