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| I'm feeling that people are missing the point of Mario (Please close) |
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Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hack Discussion - I'm feeling that people are missing the point of Mario (Please close) |
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 03:52:30 PM |
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I really am confused when people add plot in their romhacks. It's Mario. It's not exactly final fantasy.
I also don't feel people can do a whole lot with Mario. Every "deep" plot seems to result in "rescue the 5 legendary mcguffin's or else a evil dude would do bad stuff and we would prefer if he didn't"
So, I ask, why do people keep adding story to Mario?
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| Last edited on 2011-10-29 05:23:02 AM by Error 52. |
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 04:05:32 PM |
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Because this is not the Nintendo HQ
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 04:09:50 PM |
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Mario stories would probably be like "Collect X items to get to Bowser's Castle" or "Rescue X from Bowser". They would probably use the same overused and boring plots. Also, not evey hack must be Mario. People just try to have creative plots. Also, not every hack must be Mario. There are some hacks that look completely different than Mario.
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 04:10:46 PM |
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Mario had story in his RPGs, and the makers of final fantasy (SquareSoft) made SMRPG. Just saying.
However, I assume you're referring to his platforming games, and yes those games had little plot. I sort of disagree. If they can make a decent story and continue it through the hack in the form of cutscenes, then there is nothing wrong with a story. On the other hand, if the story is just in the intro, readme, hack description, or the optional and limited message boxes, then there is no need of a story.
I think people add a plot because of the lack thereof. And while it is true that most plots involve collecting "x of y", there are some that are well made.
In other words, if the designer plans on making cutscenes and an original story, then have at it.
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 04:20:44 PM |
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Almost all video games have plots/background stories, even if there is no mention of them in the game itself. Look at the first Super Mario Bros. game for instance. You can play that game from start to finish with and only see two lines of dialogue:
- "Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!"
- "Thank you Mario! Your quest is over. We present you a new quest."
But, if you read the instruction manual:
"One day the kingdom of the peaceful mushroom people was invaded by the Koopa, a tribe of turtles famous for their black magic. The quiet, peace-loving Mushroom People were turned into mere stones, bricks and even field horse-hair plants, and the Mushroom Kingdom fell into ruin.
The only one who can undo the magic spell on the Mushroom People and return them to their normal selves is the Princess Toadstool, the daughter of the Mushroom King. Unfortunately, she is presently in the hands of the great Koopa turtle king.
Mario, the hero of this story (maybe) hears about the Mushroom People's plight and sets out on a quest to free the Mushroom Princess from the evil Koopa and restore the fallen kingdom of the Mushroom People. You are Mario! It's up to you to save the Mushroom People from the black magic of the Koopa!"
Now, like I said, you can play that game and only know what is in the game itself, but isn't it good to know what the whole game is actually about? Doesn't it add something?
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 04:49:48 PM |
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Its a hack.
Not an actual Mario Game. People should do whatever. As for me I keep the story to the side. 
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| Posted on 2011-10-25 06:25:04 PM |
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Who would want a game that doesn't have a plot or goal in it?
Every video and flash game out there either has a plot or a goal or both.
Yes. The whole Mario platform series consist of saving someone or something, wether it be Peach, Daisy, or a whole kingdom or universe.
Also, why the heck would Mario (or anyone) do something that's pointless and aimless? SMW has the plot of saving Peach and the Yoshis. Isn't that a story?
And your example of what people can create a story out of Mario is biased and unsupported. That's what imagination is for - to be creative of Mario and his friends.
The point of Mario isn't "Oh another Mario game let's play it for the heck of it." If that is the case, then Mario will be a SAW franchise by now.
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| Posted on 2011-10-26 02:50:16 PM |
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Oh right.
An plot of "Mario must defeat X and save X" is overused in many hacks. I'm trying an plot other than the Peach one. If you can think on an creative plot to put in your hack, then write it.
Also, I think almost every Mario game is about 'save *insert Mario character here*' and SMB is another example.
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| Posted on 2011-10-26 09:07:46 PM |
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Ever heard of Super Paper Mario?
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| Posted on 2011-10-26 11:29:26 PM |
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You seriously aren't telling people that making a hack a certain way is wrong, are you?
People add story to Mario because they want to. It's that simple.
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| Posted on 2011-10-27 12:35:20 AM |
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I feel that you're missing the point of hacking, and in fact derivative works in general.
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| Posted on 2011-10-27 08:13:42 AM |
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What if people make hacks that don't star Mario? People can do whatever they want.
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| Posted on 2011-10-27 08:25:34 AM |
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Plots can pull people into a game. Especially plots that advance throughout.
I try to avoid having plots that interfere with gameplay as does Miyamoto. The only difference between me and Miyamoto is I can make a more detailed plot.
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 10:23:32 AM |
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In a point and click adventure game, the story and the characters are the major selling point for the game; if you get a cracking story down it can really keep the player compelled.
The reason most Mario hack stories are collectathons is with gameplay like Super Mario World it's very tricky to weave in some sort of narrative. Any plot is usually dumped between levels in static cutscenes that are hard to get excited about. This means people naturally choose the "collect X of Y" route as all they have to do is pop a little item graphic in and BOOM, there's a cheap and cheerful story. The only way I could forsee a complex story working with Mario is through creating strange scenarios where the player is forced to make the connections on their own. I suppose a good example of that would be M A R I O.
There's also those really lazy buggers who make the plot that "Bowser stole the plot to this hack!", and then never make any kind of reference to that again.
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 12:04:03 PM |
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IMO the best mario stories are ones that aren't huge and convoluted. You can have a small story that isn't "the princess got kidnapped again." It's very possible to have a compelling tale with only a few cutscenes and maybe some text boxes.
First off, remember that good writers can write everything they need in rather few words. Having a huge story probably means you're failing conservation of detail and putting in useless dialog and crap.
Secondly, more than text can convey story. In fact, in video games, text is one of your least effective ways to do it. You can give a narrative by simply planning out your scenery, music, enemy choice, etc so that playing through the game gives a sense of progression. Random example: If you're going to the source of a zombie apocalypse to stop it, levels and enemies should become more and more decrepit as you move along. Tell absolutely everything you can visually and... audioly? rather than text.
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 01:16:45 PM |
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It seems the whole point of hacking this one game, Super Mario World, is to see how far users can delve into it, and in rare cases, totally reprogram it, just to add things never seen before. The idea would be to add as many twists as possible instead of recurring plots.
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 03:28:50 PM |
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Originally posted by DDM295There's also those really lazy buggers who make the plot that "Bowser stole the plot to this hack!", and then never make any kind of reference to that again.
Like you? (shot)
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 04:12:08 PM |
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Personally I don't mind stories at all. On the other hand, I don't mind the usual "Bowser bad, Princess gone" plot either.
I have also seen hacks with a seemingly great plot, even great ExGFX, but they were a disaster if you wanted to play them, because they felt just too difficult or awfully boring.
So my personal focus is on hacks that are great concerning level design, have a moderate difficulty (where no save states are needed, but not too easy) and a lot of creativity. If these go hand-in-hand with a good plot, why not? But if not? Who cares? 
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 08:22:33 PM |
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Originally posted by Giant_ShyguyAlso, why the heck would Mario (or anyone) do something that's pointless and aimless? SMW has the plot of saving Peach and the Yoshis. Isn't that a story?
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The point of Mario isn't "Oh another Mario game let's play it for the heck of it." If that is the case, then Mario will be a SAW franchise by now.
Ever played a particular Zelda Classic quest called Mario's Insane Rampage? Mario, first armed with a stick an old guy was using to pick his ass, goes around seeking fallen stars...for no apparent reason other to gain great power, in places such as a whorehouse, house of the damned, and a dragon's ass, cumulating with killing Toad and randomly meeting a Princess ("Thank you! Now we can have hot, sweaty sex all night long!"). She then gets crushed by a Thwomp, he pisses on the corpse, and gets crushed by a Thwimp as he leaves. He can also go to Hell by sacrificing himself to Lord Featherbottom (who appears as a giant photorealistic duck just standing around in a random room), or climb a tower full of dead princesses to get to Heaven (and receive God's Holy Anal Probe). It is described as the creator as "sick, twisted, and perverted", and has all sorts of screwed up little bits.
In the sequel, it's revealed that he somehow survived (and awoke just in time to avoid being raped by a guy), and discovers that Santa Claus has taken over the world and has been killing people for sport. He goes into a church ("home of the child molesting priest"), a hidden sewer full of shit, and the HOLY SHIP, before he invades Santa's Workshop where Weird Al's "The Night Santa Went Crazy" blares throughout. I never managed to beat it so I can't tell you what happens in the end, but in the cutscene after the church (where Santa mistakes him for Saddam Hussein) Mario slaps Santa's ass. Lord Featherbottom is also around, as photorealistic as ever, just standing around in the (now-abandoned) grocery store with commando gear. I think his cult was resisting Santa'a forces.
So yes. Even with simple collectathons you can do crazy stuff with Mario. Never mind the fact that's technically Zelda 1 and an extreme example; I just wanted to bring it up. >_>
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| Last edited on 2011-10-28 08:24:44 PM by asdf. |
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| Posted on 2011-10-28 09:17:38 PM |
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I don't think storyline is at all essential to a standard Mario platformer (that is, as opposed to a Mario RPG)-- often some simple background story can be enough, and due to the fast-paced nature of Mario games, any scene longer than a goal scene can be boring to players who are focusing on the gameplay. (Especially the 3rd/5th/20th/something time you see it-- how many of you are bored of SMW's castle destruction scenes by now? The intro? The post-Bowser scene and credits?)
However, that doesn't mean you shouldn't add more detail story-wise if you think you can do something creative with it. Sometimes, having a good background story can help you with world themes, individual level ideas, and even add new meaning to otherwise typical concepts to help your levels stand out among others.
Anyway, take this screenshot (from one of my in-progress hacks) as an example.
It's a water castle, right? Some people might just say it's a castle in a water world and leave it at that. Which is fine-- it's just a Mario game after all.
But what if there's more to it than that? Was the castle originally intended to be flooded? Perhaps the castle actually was built on dry land at first, but later on it flooded, and the fish swam in (through the open arches in the background; these arches also provide a reason for why the castle is as well-lit as it is, instead of darker like many Mario castles).
How would this be revealed to the player, though? Well, perhaps there could even be a message block (not in the layer 3 water room obviously) from the boss or some random Bowser minions complaining about having to move in to a castle that's all flooded. After all, it wasn't that way when they left... wait, when they left? Since when do Bowser minions leave their castle and come back? What's going on here again? (Whenever the hack is released, you can play it to find out...)
Anyway, remember, a storyline doesn't necessarily need to be explained with detailed cutscenes or other non-gameplay parts. A lot of it can be through graphics/palettes, enemy/boss choice, level order, and so on, with the occasional message. It doesn't necessarily need to be all throughout the game, either-- the TSRP series has a pretty detailed storyline (at least compared to most Mario platformers), but both TSRPR and TSRP2 don't have much plot development after the intro until late in world 7.
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