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| World 9 Boss: Dreamer - OPEN [GFX] OPEN[ASM] |
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Forum Index - Events - SMW Central Production 2 - World 9 and Boss Threads - World 9 Boss: Dreamer - OPEN [GFX] OPEN[ASM] |
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| Posted on 2011-11-21 03:59:17 AM |
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Sigh...I didn't want to move the thread in this direction again, but I suppose I ought to say what I imagine a number of people are thinking already: The sphere idea feels a lot like the Ascended Deedle Ball idea with all the humor surgically removed. What's more, my own level has sort of a running theme of spheroids building up to the joke battle with you-know-who, and following this up with a battle with a much less, ah, shall we say, "distinctive" sphere is just going to seem awkward, and very likely to leave the player thinking "Was this originally intended to be...something else..?). If nothing else, we should strive to avoid any sense of disagreement over such questions of overall vision coming through in the hack itself.
That all said, I found Ludus's Blueberry Lord idea compelling not merely because of the "ha-ha, blueberry" apsect (though that's certainly a contributing factor), but rather because it isn't actually a villain, but rather a character initially non-hostile toward Mario, who later becomes offended. This, I think, would be an decidedly more interesting approach to take with our boss here.
Taking this all into account, I would like to propose the following synthesis of some of the more popular ideas here:
My own stage, as mentioned before, ends with a joke battle with the normal Deedle-Ball. This would be our "fake" extra boss, and a shout-out to those who enjoyed the running gag. When this harrowing battle is ended, Mario will be sneezed skyward as described before (for even if we leave out the transfiguration part, I dare say this is essential), but instead of depositing him in a black void, it would instead deposit him in a sacred realm, where he meets his Spirit Guide in a false bonus ending. Said Spirit Guide could conceivably be realized in a number of forms, of course, but I think most of us can agree that it should probably be blueberry based.
The Spirit Guide will receive Mario warmly, and congratulate him on completing the trials and tribulations he has endured on his journey through these land of dreams. As a reward, he begins to reveal some great truth to Mario to aid him on his path to enlightenment, when suddenly Mario, or that fool Yoshi, or someone else related to our hero does/is revealed to have previously done something to deeply offend the Spirit Guide (ideally this would center around some minor and seemingly innocuous action performed at a much earlier stage in the game, its significance now being blown far out of proportion), whereupon a conflict breaks out, resulting in the true extra boss battle. And if you like, the battle itself could even involve the elemental crystal idea which seems to have gained some traction here--or better yet, elemental berries of the non-blue color, orbiting about their fantastical sapphire lord, like a host of ordinary serpents and lizards swarming about a majestic legendary dragon.
This approach has several advantages--it has a little something to please all the factions, but combines them together constructively instead of paring them down, it has a touch of a self-reflective parodying aspect while at the same time providing a suitably dramatic (by Mario standards) ending to the bonus world, and it fits a bit more organically in the context of the bonus world itself instead of having a foe just appear out of nowhere and justifying things with "Dream world, anything goes!". And due to the inherent potential for disjointedness collaborative works such as this have, such connections are important, adding as they do to an overall sense of coherency--and that's an impression we especially want to deliver for the absolute final end of the hack, no?
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| Posted on 2011-11-21 02:05:15 PM |
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Originally posted by FirePhoenixAt the same time though, I can't help but feel like it's underwhelming. It's not a bad idea, it's certainly abstract, but is it absolute endgame quality? That part I'm not so sure about.
[OFF-TOPIC] Wow, I've certaintly missed a lot over the weekend.
[ON-TOPIC] If you are talking about my idea with the boss, I could come up with some short (Not-so-serious) story or backstory behind the sphere. Here is my beta one,
a sphere of all the collected nightmares of the people in the Mushroom Kingdom and beyond.
I could go further, but like I said, this is not so serious. Nightmares generally tend to be hostile as well.
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| Posted on 2011-11-21 02:28:28 PM |
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Originally posted by Rameau's NephewSigh...I didn't want to move the thread in this direction again, but I suppose I ought to say what I imagine a number of people are thinking already: The sphere idea feels a lot like the Ascended Deedle Ball idea with all the humor surgically removed. What's more, my own level has sort of a running theme of spheroids building up to the joke battle with you-know-who, and following this up with a battle with a much less, ah, shall we say, "distinctive" sphere is just going to seem awkward, and very likely to leave the player thinking "Was this originally intended to be...something else..?). If nothing else, we should strive to avoid any sense of disagreement over such questions of overall vision coming through in the hack itself.
That all said, I found Ludus's Blueberry Lord idea compelling not merely because of the "ha-ha, blueberry" apsect (though that's certainly a contributing factor), but rather because it isn't actually a villain, but rather a character initially non-hostile toward Mario, who later becomes offended. This, I think, would be an decidedly more interesting approach to take with our boss here.
Taking this all into account, I would like to propose the following synthesis of some of the more popular ideas here:
My own stage, as mentioned before, ends with a joke battle with the normal Deedle-Ball. This would be our "fake" extra boss, and a shout-out to those who enjoyed the running gag. When this harrowing battle is ended, Mario will be sneezed skyward as described before (for even if we leave out the transfiguration part, I dare say this is essential), but instead of depositing him in a black void, it would instead deposit him in a sacred realm, where he meets his Spirit Guide in a false bonus ending. Said Spirit Guide could conceivably be realized in a number of forms, of course, but I think most of us can agree that it should probably be blueberry based.
The Spirit Guide will receive Mario warmly, and congratulate him on completing the trials and tribulations he has endured on his journey through these land of dreams. As a reward, he begins to reveal some great truth to Mario to aid him on his path to enlightenment, when suddenly Mario, or that fool Yoshi, or someone else related to our hero does/is revealed to have previously done something to deeply offend the Spirit Guide (ideally this would center around some minor and seemingly innocuous action performed at a much earlier stage in the game, its significance now being blown far out of proportion), whereupon a conflict breaks out, resulting in the true extra boss battle. And if you like, the battle itself could even involve the elemental crystal idea which seems to have gained some traction here--or better yet, elemental berries of the non-blue color, orbiting about their fantastical sapphire lord, like a host of ordinary serpents and lizards swarming about a majestic legendary dragon.
This approach has several advantages--it has a little something to please all the factions, but combines them together constructively instead of paring them down, it has a touch of a self-reflective parodying aspect while at the same time providing a suitably dramatic (by Mario standards) ending to the bonus world, and it fits a bit more organically in the context of the bonus world itself instead of having a foe just appear out of nowhere and justifying things with "Dream world, anything goes!". And due to the inherent potential for disjointedness collaborative works such as this have, such connections are important, adding as they do to an overall sense of coherency--and that's an impression we especially want to deliver for the absolute final end of the hack, no?
Although I still prefer your original idea above all the others, this seems like it would work very well. I loled at the blueberry thing too.
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| Posted on 2011-11-21 03:08:25 PM |
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I would have no objections to Rameau's compromise. I actually like that best because it allows for multiple ideas to be used.
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| Posted on 2011-11-21 03:18:12 PM |
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Yeah, Rameau's compromise is quite compelling, but there is one nit-pik I have about it. It's final appearance as in the final boss... I believe that even bonus bosses need an epic appearance, and I recall that the final form of the blue berry would have a big... nose?
Uh, yeah... why not a floating blue-berry with a red cape with 3 other blueberries with it. This is only appearance wise in my opinion and I think the blueberry should look pretty cool, at least it's final form.
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| Posted on 2011-11-22 05:48:28 AM |
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The nose is the Deedle-Ball's secret weapon, and should remain solely under his control; anything else would diminish the shocking revelation at the end of my level. As for Mario's Spirit Guide, I'd certainly support the floating caped blueberry idea (though of course other folks are free to submit alternative designs).
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| Posted on 2011-11-22 09:58:35 AM |
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It was the Mario's Spirit Guide I was mainly referring about as the final boss. The deedleball with the nose and all, since it is not the final bonus boss, I don't really care with it, though it is a good idea, it's the FINAL boss I am most worried about being mistaken as something silly... when any final boss IMO should not be taken silly, even if it is a bonus. Look at Culex in SMRPG, bad-ass, yet has nothing to do with the story.
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| Posted on 2011-11-22 10:13:22 PM |
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Originally posted by metalgearhunterIt was the Mario's Spirit Guide I was mainly referring about as the final boss. The deedleball with the nose and all, since it is not the final bonus boss, I don't really care with it, though it is a good idea, it's the FINAL boss I am most worried about being mistaken as something silly... when any final boss IMO should not be taken silly, even if it is a bonus. Look at Culex in SMRPG, bad-ass, yet has nothing to do with the story.
Bonus Bosses don't have to be completely serious or "bad-ass" as you call them. Culex is one example out of many. A good example of a silly boss: The Boss from La-MULANA. Does anyone care how silly or easy it is? I don't think so...
I really think we should stop looking at this boss from the viewpoint of "last boss, therefore must not be silly". :/
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| Posted on 2011-11-26 10:10:48 PM |
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I support the blue berry, and as and a addition, it's final attack after its last hit is spraying a mass amount of nosed spheres at Mario. This is silliness I support.
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| Posted on 2011-12-03 01:51:09 PM |
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I'd actually like to propose that we make something more complex out of the dreamlike Luigi character in Rameau's Nephew's level, adding attacks based on all the idiosyncratic enemies the level has, and make that the boss of World 9. It actually seems kind of odd to have a level just for a boss fight, and inconsistent with the other 8 worlds in a way that doesn't feel right to me, personally.
There's already a buildup for it, as you see the Luigi character twice in the level beforehand, and maybe this is just me, but it feels really odd for him to just end up as a red elite reskin, of all things, especially considering he apparently has the power to summon a swarm of angry spirits to swoop down and attack you. I mean, here we are having this silly deedle debate- which, quite frankly, I'm sick of reading about, having gone through this whole thread- when we have a character that actually fits the level and world it's in and even has an air of mystery about it.
I'll acquiesce to whatever the majority decides, but most of the ideas I've seen in this thread seem like headfirst dives into either fairly pointless in-jokes (which point back to a hack I rather detest, so I admit my viewpoint is biased) or fairly generic RPG-ish final bosses. Using the vague generalization that World 9 is abstractly themed to justify a nonsequiturish boss is a far cry from using actual levels in World 9 (!), and in my case, Rameau's Nephew's in particular, to suggest a boss that's internally consistent with the rest of World 9. That's my stance on this.
Edit: I'd also like to point out that the more elaborate proposals here have an inane amount of backstory and explanation that players will likely never see.
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| Last edited on 2011-12-03 04:04:03 PM by AxemJinx. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-04 09:38:32 AM |
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Axem, I'm flattered that you like the Pionpi Luigi character, but while I like him too, I'd really, really rather not have him used in that way. There's a reason why I employ him the way I do in my level, why he's Cesare the Somnambulist instead of Dr. Caligari, and I fear trying to stick him in the latter role would actually diminish the character. My level is, as noted earlier, essentially set up as dreamer vs. dreamer; throughout it, Mario is assaulted by uncanny images drawn from both his own subconscious, and, as he draws closer, increasingly from that of his opponent. And Pionpi Luigi is easily the most striking and interesting of these images--but he's still an element of the dream, not one of the dreamers themselves. He stalks Mario throughout the level, serving as a constant, eerie accompaniment--but the level's not building up to him, and there's a reason he drops out before the final conclusion, and indeed right before things start to really take a turn for the bizarre. Pushing him too far into the foreground, I fear, would be a mistake, and using him as the final boss would actually be rather a bit dull. There's a reason people here don't really like the idea of robot/evil Marios as the bonus boss--it's a somewhat unimaginative, overdone idea, and an evil Luigi is only really a touch better. The point of this world is to try things a bit different, and I'm not so sure this lives up to this goal, interesting as it works as an element for a strong penultimate feel.
And really, I'd prefer to avoid having the final boss be a simple "image", so to speak, at all--that in itself is a bit trite. While I confess I still sort of have a fondness for using the aforementioned counter-dreamer (now elevated from a pipsqueak with an overinflated sense of self-importance to the genuine embodiment of that self-importance), since that idea doesn't seem to strike a chord with everyone, that's why I suggested the idea of making the final boss be an embodiment or representative of the dream itself (which, as I mentioned, does not strictly have to be blueberry-based, though I find the idea amusing), at first thanking Mario for removing the aforementioned disruptive influences, but then abruptly turning on him for seemingly trivial reasons--a situation analogous to the fickle and changing nature of dreams, and their ability to suddenly shift both mood and content. And I think that in itself ties into the world as a whole fairly well, more so than shifting our belligerent brother too far into the spotlight would do.
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| Posted on 2011-12-04 10:51:37 AM |
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The thing is, I'm not sure you're looking at this from the end players' point of view (for both the ending of your level and this boss discussion). Having bosses based on human organs and bonus rounds revolving around space snacks worked for Tyrian because that sort of humor was sprinkled throughout the entire game, but for this hack, I'm not sure anything would convince me that it doesn't feel out of place, the dreamlike qualities of World 9 notwithstanding. I think players are going to reach the end of your stage and just feel completely disillusioned. It's like in the earlier Final Fantasy games when some random guy comes along and says "Actually, I'm the final boss, even though you, the player, did not know I existed until just now." Correct me if I'm wrong, but a fair portion of the audience for this game will not have played SMWCP1, and as good as the delivery might be, the Deedle Ball will likely be too far a departure for them. Nor do I wish players to try SMWCP1 out of curiosity about the in-joke's origins, for obvious (and admittedly biased) reasons. I can understand the idea of something thinking too much of itself and that self-confidence becoming manifest in the dream world, but why make the central character something from a hack that doesn't even deserve to be compared to this one? I really don't get that, personally. Even if that boss's nondescriptness makes it a good match, I don't see why we should go out of our way to connect this game to one that (for me, at least) was a big disappointment.
As for this boss discussion, you say Pionpi Luigi is an image of the dream rather than a dreamer...but again, how are players even going to tell the difference there? By setting in stone what's real and what's imaginary, are you not actually contradicting the nature of World 9 itself? Why can't Pionpi Luigi be this embodiment of the dream you mentioned?
Moreover, how are any of the ideas in this thread less overdone? Elemental crystals? Characters that show up out of nowhere?
And seriously, take a step back for a second. Isn't this whole blueberry thing being blown out of proportion? Is that really the note on which we want to end the game? Is one random forumite's random comment really so important that we're going to make a running gag out of it and give it a special place in the game? I really don't understand that, personally. Here we are making an unprecedented hack and we're giggling over something completely unrelated. What will a blueberry mean to end players? Not much. And correct me if I wrong, but we're not making this game to amuse ourselves.
But yeah...like I said, I'll go along with whatever the majority decides.
Choose wisely.
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| Last edited on 2011-12-04 10:56:26 AM by AxemJinx. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-04 11:19:47 AM |
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Make no mistake, the first Production was quite deeply flawed in a number of key areas, but it wasn't complete rubbish through and through, and I certainly think it a bit extreme to attempt to disown it entirely. For better or for worse, this hack is its sequel, and its entire course of progress has been decisively determined by the previous project, even if a substantial portion of that involved trying to avoid repeating its mistakes. As such, I see nothing wrong with a few winking, self-effacing references to the earlier hack, especially in the bonus world, where we can afford to be a touch more metatextual.
In any case, if you'd like something very decisively different, I'd still also very much support a highly experimental non-boss level to end things with. I know folks like their bosses, and they do very much add a sense of finality to a game, but I have to wonder if taking the conclusion in another direction entirely might not actually end up giving us a much more interesting--and certainly more unique--way to tie things up than any boss possibly could, especially considering there seem to be some wildly varying opinions as to exactly what sort of boss would be appropriate for such a world. Maybe a decisive break from tradition might be precisely the sort of thing we would benefit from here.
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| Posted on 2011-12-04 11:58:01 AM |
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AxemJinx: As you said for the deedle ball.
Originally posted by AxemJinxCorrect me if I'm wrong, but a fair portion of the audience for this game will not have played SMWCP1, and as good as the delivery might be, the Deedle Ball will likely be too far a departure for them.
How come, a sequel of an previous game, can't be at any point related to the previous one, because some haven't played it?
Really, that makes absolute no sense whatsoever. Even if the storyline isn't a real continuation, there can have some reference to the previous hack, we can even call the deedle ball a cameo if you want, the fact is, theres no point in not bringing an character back, by the simple fact some have not played the previous game.
Originally posted by AxemJinxIsn't this whole blueberry thing being blown out of proportion?
Hmmm... I don't think so.
Originally posted by AxemJinxIs that really the note on which we want to end the game?
It's not the final boss, so it will not be where the game will end. So...
Originally posted by AxemJinxIs one random forumite's random comment really so important that we're going to make a running gag out of it and give it a special place in the game?
The blue berry post, Important or not, turned into something funny to us.
Originally posted by AxemJinxHere we are making an unprecedented hack and we're giggling over something completely unrelated.
How those two ideas are in any way unrelated to the nature of this thread, that is of giving ideas to the world 9 boss?
Originally posted by AxemJinxWhat will a blueberry mean to end players? Not much. And correct me if I wrong, but we're not making this game to amuse ourselves.
How can a player detect an In-joke? They don't. In fact, how can you play an random comercial game and point out to something and say "hey, look, it's an in-joke"? only the ones who created the game will know that this one thing is an in-joke, we won't. And we can find it funny too, not for the same reason of the creators, but just because it's funny, or don't even notice it and just continue with the game, we will not shout it's an in-joke, and that the game is horrible because of that. Am i wrong? Your avatar, for example, he is a sensei from the dojo in Monstro Town, But he may be an in joke for who created him, don't you think?
The blue berry can be funny to us, because we know the history behind it. But the player will still find it interestig if we introduce it in a way they will appreciate.
As in a matter of opinion about the boss of this world, i vote for the deedle ball (I played the ips RN posted, and i found it hilarious) And the blue berry. We can even have Mario fight the bosses like this: Deedle Ball > Blue Berry > Deedle Bal and Blue Berry
Having the blueberry say something to the Deedle after his fight with Mario.
BB "That is enough, i already told you not to harm visitors"
DB "But he have done bad things to me in the past, sir."
Also, the Pionpi Luigi don't strike me as funny, good, or epic as the two.
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| Last edited on 2011-12-04 12:05:14 PM by Ludus. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-04 12:16:46 PM |
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Originally posted by Ludustheres no point in not bringing an character back, by the simple fact some have not played the previous game.
I agree.
However, I question why we want to market this hack as a sequel to the last one. If SMWCP1 wasn't complete rubbish, it came close. Sorry to be so blunt, but to me it's nothing more than a conflagration of flotsam and jetsam. I hold no sentimental attachment to it. From my point of view, making references to that hack is not going to make it any better.
I also question why we're fixated on the Deedle Ball, of all things. That whole level was a blatant ripoff of Metroid Prime 2 to begin with, and now we want to refer back to it?
Originally posted by LudusThe blue berry post, Important or not, turned into something funny to us.
Funny for some, you mean. It's become rather memeish for me, and the ends don't justify the memes (aha).
Originally posted by LudusHow are those two ideas are in any way unrelated to the nature of this thread, that is of giving ideas to the world 9 boss?
I mean it's completely unrelated to SMWCP2. It's just an offhand complaint somebody made about SMWCP1, nothing more. If you want to make something more out of it, be my guest, but I don't see how it relates to this project on the whole (or, come to think of it, how berries relate to World 9, either).
Originally posted by LudusThe blue berry can be funny to us, because we know the history behind it. But the player will still find it interestig if we introduce it in a way they will appreciate.
You misunderstand- this is the point I've been getting at all along. Of course players won't say it's bad because it's an in-joke (though that may pour salt on the wound if they find out); they'll say it's bad because it's too nonsequiturish, even for World 9. Pray tell, how exactly are we going to introduce a blueberry in a way players will appreciate? This I would like to hear, because up until now, I've mostly been hearing the "giggle factor" side of it.
Edit: Also, I thought the Axem Rangers and the Koopa Bros. were pulled off quite well. I don't have anything wrong with parodying something else. However, when the origin of the joke is something as self-important and insubstantial as what we've been proposing in this thread, I'm not very convinced. Especially not when the joke is not even held in high regard by everyone working on the project.
Of course, if we actually can make the blueberry (or whatever else) look like it fits, I don't really have as much of a problem with it.
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| Last edited on 2011-12-04 12:43:55 PM by AxemJinx. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-08 04:39:11 PM |
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Originally posted by Riolu180I actually prefer the Blue Berry Lord idea, but...maybe without Yoshi. Or, we could go with the Bonus Magician, like someone suggested a while ago. Sure, it may not be fitting of the final boss...
...but this ISN'T the final boss. It's a BONUS boss. Not final boss. Not true final boss. Bonus boss. So I don't think we should really care about making it "final boss"-ish because it ISN'T a final boss. Just because this is World 9 doesn't mean it's a true final boss, it just means it's...World 9's boss. World 9 is the bonus Dream/Abstract world, so we should concern ourselves with making the boss fit that- and ANYTHING can be a bonus boss so long as it fits the world. It doesn't HAVE to be ultra-dramatic or super-mega-awesome or final boss-ish. It just...needs to be a great boss! Am I right?
Even VIP 5 has a bonus boss. But we need a new bonus boss that looks different than the other bonus bosses.
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| Last edited on 2011-12-08 10:50:28 PM by Woody. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-08 05:20:31 PM |
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Originally posted by WoodyEven VIP 5 has a bonus boss.
So?
QuoteBut some we need a new bonus boss that looks different than the other bonus bosses.
That's why this topic exists.
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| Posted on 2011-12-08 06:39:30 PM |
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Late reply, but oh well, busy, busy.
Originally posted by AxemJinxPray tell, how exactly are we going to introduce a blueberry in a way players will appreciate?
See this
It's just a base to make a better develop of this boss sidestory.
also, i just got an idea out of nowhere. Being the Blue Berry the one who created this world of Dreams, it have an somewhat control over the nature of what happens in his surrounds. And if he transports the player (And yoshi, that have an important role in beating this boss) into an series of small levels, that represents each world (2 levels of 3-5 linear screens for each world?) in an dream-ish palette. Each of them having the player chase the berry, the levels should go at random until the boss goes to it's next part.
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| Posted on 2011-12-09 02:02:43 PM |
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Neh, the Gamer.
Your idea seems nice, but that seems to be like it would be just expanding the undecided boss's time to fight. Just a straight up boss battle will be okay to me.
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| Posted on 2011-12-30 06:44:59 PM |
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why would the last boss of the hack be based off of a forum joke? I would be extremely disappointed with this hack if the second most anticipated boss in the game ( my opinion ) was based off a joke which i the common person dont find funny at all
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Forum Index - Events - SMW Central Production 2 - World 9 and Boss Threads - World 9 Boss: Dreamer - OPEN [GFX] OPEN[ASM] |
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