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| World 9 Boss: Dreamer - OPEN [GFX] OPEN[ASM] |
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Forum Index - Events - SMW Central Production 2 - World 9 and Boss Threads - World 9 Boss: Dreamer - OPEN [GFX] OPEN[ASM] |
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 12:00:40 PM |
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I'm seeing a lot of good ideas in this thread, and quite disappointed a lot of them are getting shot down so quickly.
We need to start deciding on an idea of this or we may just go with the idea of not having a boss for this world at all if its going to be that much of an issue.
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 12:03:16 PM |
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According to Rameau's Nephew's Deedle-Ball idea and the EREHPS EHT RAEF level, We could decide on Deedle-Ball.
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| Last edited on 2012-01-01 12:04:27 PM by Woody. |
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 12:05:39 PM |
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Which would of been fine if the idea hadn't been shot down by nearly everyone.
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 09:20:19 PM |
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At this point, could I suggest that we take the most likely ideas and have some sort of official vote? It seems like this has dragged on for too long, and that people are having trouble agreeing on a compromise.
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 09:28:31 PM |
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Honestly, as time goes on, I'm increasingly coming to think that forgoing a boss entirely and doing a highly experimental (i.e. altered gameplay mechanics) final level might indeed be the best way to go, allowing us to both skip the argument entirely as well as show off the programming abilities of this site in a much freer and more impressive way. Better than settling on something that's going to annoy one faction or other, perhaps.
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 09:53:59 PM |
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I'm ok with the Deedle Ball/blueberry/etc. ideas so long as we think carefully about how to present them to players in a way that doesn't seem like it's only for our, the designers', benefit. That's essentially the point I was trying to make. I can swallow my distaste for SMWCP1.
That said, there were a lot of ideas, and a vote might be a good start at this point.
I'm also fine with an extremely experimental level if we have the people willing to code/do whatever is necessary for it.
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| Posted on 2012-01-01 11:40:08 PM |
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Boss coders appear to be a little on the scarce side at this point, so I'm all for an experimental level (assuming it turns out to be both climactic, fair, and really awesome).
Of course, we'd need a designer for it.
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| Posted on 2012-01-08 09:28:21 PM |
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That experimental level idea sounds good. I'd like to try making it, if we go that route! What kind of mechanics would we want to use in this level, though? RM's only description doesn't really give me any ideas on it...
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| Posted on 2012-01-08 11:16:05 PM |
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If I was somewhat vague in my description, it's because I really don't know exactly what sort of witchcraft would be technically feasible on this front. But in any case, here's a somewhat more detailed explanation of what exactly I meant, which hopefully might serve as some inspiration to our more technically gifted folks:
As I've mentioned before, my preferred scheme for organizing the levels in the dream world is in order of increasing strangeness. This, I imagine, is one of the fundamental characteristics of the world in its natural state: the longer on stays in it/farther in one goes, the more abstract and bizarre it starts to become.
Similarly (as I also previously mentioned), I imagined Team Norveg was experimenting with creating a mechanism for controlling the flow of this reality for their own purposes, though they had only succeeded in doing so on a fairly rudimentary level before our hero busted up their primary operation in the normal universe. Nevertheless, their machinations represent an interruption and diverting of the normal stream, and when Mario blows the machinery up in hilarious fashion (in a way not quite yet implemented at the end of my level, though discussed earlier in a different context), he effectively opens up the floodgates, causing all of the pent-up potential for change to rush forth at once. And this, I imagine, would represent the final level.
And what do I imagine it would consist of? Several areas representing an increasingly larger freedom from our reality's normal physical restraints. What we have here is a dimension suddenly set free, and, were we to crudely personify it, reveling at having its chains cast off. As such, I imagine the altered mechanics in each section should correspondingly represent an increasing amount of freedom of movement for Mario, as he too is freed from his normal limitations. It does not in each case necessarily need to involve the same restraints being lifted, but the collective effect should in any event seem to be a progressively greater amount of liberty.
The last section or too, however, should demonstrate the result of this sort of liberation being taken too far, to the point where useful barriers and delineations break down, and our freedom starts to transform (at least from the perspective of our comparatively static hero, who cannot keep up with its rapid rate of change) into chaos and anarchy, which would likewise be reflected in the game mechanics (though it's important to handle this is a way that it does not lead to frustration, but rather amusement). Eventually things reach a point where the stream of reality speeds up to such an extent that it rushes past our slowpoke protagonist completely, abandoning hi in his dull, slowly-changing home dimension as it continues on in mirthful, metamorphic, morphean merrimaking without our pitifully pokey partypooper.
I do hope this description makes any sort of sense at all. To put it another way: the universe is having a party to which Mario is likewise invited, but finds himself feeling increasingly out of place as he realizes he doesn't know any of the other attendees, and can't keep pace with their wild celebrations anyway. To put it a third way, it's like being caught up in a joyful riot after a sporting event (which you don't follow) where the local team scored a major victory, and getting trampled by a massive crowd of dancing revelers.
Now, how does one translate all of this into gameplay mechanics? Again, I'm not entirely sure myself, but that's why we've got a collaboration of the best and the brightest going on here. So if anyone thinks they have a gem of an idea re the practical implementation, by all means, speak up, and let the build upon your fine imaginings.
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| Posted on 2012-01-11 07:53:11 AM |
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I Have an Idea for a Boss That Seems like a Good idea for this world Maybe something like Master Hand From super smash bros brawl. the area were you fight him really matches the theme of this world, or maybe Tabuu. Just throwing a little ideas out.
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| Posted on 2012-01-13 09:14:05 AM |
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Ooh, ooh, supplementary idea to my previous:
Furthering developing the idea of the proposed experimental level being akin to "the universe having a party", if we wanted to end such a level with a suitable boss-like climax (albeit in the manner of a survival boss), what if we were to have the final section of said level feature Mario falling down (or better yet, falling up) an iridescent shaft, all the while having to avoid being trampled by an increasingly rowdy conga line of amorphous forms and ever-changing shapes, set to a rendition of the typical "doot doot doot-doot DOOT doot" conga theme, only steadily becoming more threatening and chaotic, in a manner paralleling the rising rambunctiousness of the recombinants' revelry? The tune could ultimately transform into a raucous heavy metal piece, whereupon our by now already quite disorganized conga line breaks down into a mosh pit, giving our hero one final Manic Minefield muddle amid before finally being ejected from the dream world entirely. That would give us a suitable kick to end things with while taking things in a decidedly unique directions.
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| Last edited on 2012-01-13 09:15:26 AM by Rameau's Nephew. |
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| Posted on 2012-01-13 11:54:31 AM |
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Originally posted by Rameau's NephewOoh, ooh, supplementary idea to my previous:
Furthering developing the idea of the proposed experimental level being akin to "the universe having a party", if we wanted to end such a level with a suitable boss-like climax (albeit in the manner of a survival boss), what if we were to have the final section of said level feature Mario falling down (or better yet, falling up) an iridescent shaft, all the while having to avoid being trampled by an increasingly rowdy conga line of amorphous forms and ever-changing shapes, set to a rendition of the typical "doot doot doot-doot DOOT doot" conga theme, only steadily becoming more threatening and chaotic, in a manner paralleling the rising rambunctiousness of the recombinants' revelry? The tune could ultimately transform into a raucous heavy metal piece, whereupon our by now already quite disorganized conga line breaks down into a mosh pit, giving our hero one final Manic Minefield muddle amid before finally being ejected from the dream world entirely. That would give us a suitable kick to end things with while taking things in a decidedly unique directions.
How are you so amazing?
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| Posted on 2012-01-13 01:55:19 PM |
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why not just have a credits level? something like the end of 'funky' in smw. but i like the blue berry idea.
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| Posted on 2012-01-14 10:37:57 PM |
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Aright, enough idle effusing on my end--I was, after all, asked how the proposed experimental might work in gameplay terms. While I'm still hoping some technically creatve types might weigh in an give us an idea of what sort of crazy things might be possible in this respect, here's something of a basic framework concept we can build upon:
Firstly, it should be noted that this level will not, for the most part, feature floors. It will instead consist of large, open spaces, which Mario traverses by flying--not cape flying, nor the sort of free X and Y movement offered by the sky pop, but rather by falling, minus the pesky landing bit or the necessity of being compelled to travel in a predominantly downward-inclined direction.
The level, as imagined here, will consist of three parts:
Part 1: Here, Mario falls normally, albeit with a screen wrap effect when he reaches the bottom, teleporting him back to the top of the screen again. The Eternal Diagonal would thus be Mario's primary method for propelling himself through space, in a manner akin to that seen, for example, in some of the more waggish Knytt Stories levels, and similar to these, with a few objects scattered about to occasionally throw an unexpected kink into Mario's path, such as water, quicksand, spikes, bouncer or conveyer blocks, etc. Likewise, the area would be traversed by assorted abstract shape people, racing to and fro in a state of reckless ecstasy, adding another danger to Mario's journey. The area may or may not also have a slow autoscroll, so as to strengthen the impression of a constant, irresistible forward motion.
Our background here would be a sort of abstract pattern which gives the impression of movement and flow via palette animation, similar to that seen in Tatanga's level, if perhaps a touch more complex. Our shape people would likewise be ever changing in their color but not (or at least only slightly) in their form.
Part 2: In this area, Mario is hurled forward at high speeds, and cannot, of his own power, slow down. What he can do, however, is move into the gravitational pull of small, shimmering planetoids, which he will then proceed to orbit around until the player pushes a button to release him, hurling him forward again (should the orbiting effect be too difficult to pull off, he could instead simply cling to the planetoid via force of gravity until released), whereupon he will again rocket forward until he reaches another planetoid's gravitational field. It should be noted that this effect will not be like the barrel cannons in the DKC series; Mario will always be launched in the same direction regardless one when the release button is pressed and will be able to control his Y motion during the flight, and thus the challenge will consist of avoiding obstacles and shape people during these spurts, and in reaching or avoiding certain planetoids so as to adopt a more optimal path. Again, various blocks could be thrown in from time to time to liven things up, especially things like pinball-esque bouncers, or even spirals made from things like the super-fast current blocks seen in Shénmì Frica-Sea.
Our background here would be more complex than in the previous section, scrolling faster and incorporating frame animations in addition to palette animations. The shape people, similarly, would change in both form and color here (and still more drastically so in the next section).
Part 3: One planetoid would launch Mario upwards, depositing him in the iridescent shaft mentioned in my previous post. A message would then appear reading "Hey there, Friend! Come join the celebration!" whereupon the lights dim, and the aforementioned conga line of doom boss sequence begins.
Once Mario properly peregrinates this fearsome fiesta, he will emerge against a starry sky as the mass of colors and shape people continue rushing by above him and pass on into the distance. Mario himself, however, returning to a universe where our familiar physical laws apply, instead moves in a decidedly more down-to-earth direction, finally splashing into a nocturnal sea, providing an analogue to the traditional "waking with a start" from his dreamy revery. This is followed by a cutscene wherein our hero, somewhat disoriented, drags himself over to a crocky outcropping, climbs up, and sits there for a bit, admiring the reflection of the moon on the waves, accompanied by words "Keep on dreaming". Happy End.
As for the stage title, having twisted the alliterative/rhyming theme to its greatest possible extreme in the final normal level, it would make sense to follow the popular suggestion of breaking it entirely here, e.g. "Life is but a..."
Anyway, how does that strike you folks? As I said, being not exactly the most knowledgeable chappy on the ASM front, my understanding of what exactly is and is not possible here is a bit vague, but if any clever coders can think of any sort of additional crazy gimmicks which could be successfully used in addition to (or in place of) one of those described here, feel free to share it with our esteemed public.
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| Posted on 2012-01-15 12:47:43 AM |
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Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew*wall of text*
Yes.
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| Posted on 2012-01-16 09:01:33 PM |
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i like this idea as well.. also is it just me or does the idea for section 2 remind anyone of that glowing spheres bonus stage in sonic 3?
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| Posted on 2012-01-16 10:52:00 PM |
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In case the Deedle-Ball Idea does not work or got shot down, I thought up of an Elite Koopa King idea.
NOTE: Remember, Read the whole idea because it might be a bad idea. And also, The idea is LONG.
Boss: Elite Koopa King
What he looks like: He looks just like an ordinary elite koopa (No, not the first SMWCP ones, but the cyborg elite koopa). But his shell colors is the mix of Green, Red, Yellow, and Blue (In his true form after the blue form). Plus he is the twice the size of a cyborg elite koopa. And he is wearing a crown on top (I'm not sure if he does). When you're encountering him, He starts off as green first.
Backstory of the Elite Koopa King:
At Norveg's Factory during the incident of factories that Norveg made, Norveg thinks he needs more minions.
Norveg: I need more minions so they could help me make more factories. Isn't that right, Doc Croc?
Doc Croc: That's right! You could help me make a cyborg koopa called 'Elite Koopa'!
Norveg: An Elite Koopa? Yes! That can help me make more factories, and even stop Mario from getting into my factory! But I need a factory that can turn koopas into Elite Koopas.
Doc Croc: Yes! Go capture some koopas, Boss.
Meanwhile at Mushroom Kingdom, The Koopas are playing outside with a big koopa. Then Norveg showed up and used his vacuum-like machine to suck up those koopas (Including the big koopa) like a vacuum cleaner. Then Norveg took the koopas to his factory to show Doc Croc how he got the koopas.
Doc Croc: Wow! Good job, Norveg. Go make a factory that can them into elite koopas like you said.
Then Norveg made a factory that can turn koopas into elite koopas. Then it was completed.
Doc Croc: Excellent! Go take out the koopas and turn them into elite koopas, Boss.
Then Norveg took the koopas out of the machine. Then he noticed that he captured a big koopa.
Norveg: Oh my godness! That is one big koopa. I can turn that koopa into a big elite koopa so it can be the leader of the elite koopas.
Doc Croc: Nice idea, Boss! Go turn that big koopa into an elite koopa.
Then Norveg put the big koopa into the conveyor belt of the factory. Then Norveg pulled the lever. As a result, the conveyor belt moved the big koopa into inside of the factory. Then when the koopa came out of the factory, It was turned into a cyborg elite koopa.
Norveg: It worked! I can call that big elite koopa 'The Elite Koopa King'! *Norveg puts a crown on the elite koopa*
Doc Croc: Go capture some more koopas, Boss! And Elite Koopa King, Go turn the remaining koopas into elite koopas.
Norveg went back to the Mushroom Kingdom and he used his machine to suck up a bunch of koopas that are playing with the other koopas. Then he took them into his factory. Doc Croc and the Elite Koopa King has some of the elite koopas. Then Norveg took the koopas out of his machine.
Doc Croc: Good work! Now, turn the koopas into more elite koopas.
Norveg and the Elite Koopa King put the koopas on the conveyor belt. Then Norveg pulled the lever to turn them into elite koopas.
Elite Koopas: All hail, Norveg!
Norveg: Elite Koopa King, See that teleporter machine that I built. That machine takes you into the dream world. So go into the teleporter with some of the elite koopas. *Points to the other elite koopas* Others, go reside in my factory.
The Elite Koopa King went to the teleporter machine with some elite koopas. The other elite koopas stayed as Norveg's minions. After defeating Norveg and his minions, Mario deactivates the machines that Norveg built. Then Mario tried to deactivate the teleporter machine. Then it was acivated accidently and took Mario to the dream world. Meanwhile at the dream world, The Elite Koopa King has been waiting for Mario until he showed up. The battle begins.
This backstory is also how the cyborg elite koopas are created.
How the battle goes:
The battle takes place in a crazy dream-style room.
Green Elite Koopa Form:
The Elite Koopa King starts off as green. He attacks you by retreating into his shell and smashes into walls back and forth. It's the same one as how an ordinary green elite koopa, Except when hitting the wall, It stuns you for short time when you're on the ground. Plus the timing before he stops attacking is twice as long as the timing before an ordinary green elite koopa stops attacking. To make it fair, His attack speed is a bit slower than an ordinary green one. And the Elite Koopa King does not chase you when attacking. When you hit him in one jump...
Red Elite Koopa Form:
He changes his shell color to red! And he starts attacking you by shooting fireballs. It's the same as the red elite koopa's attack, Except the Elite Koopa King shoots 7 fireballs that are a tiny bit faster or If faster is unfair, A tiny bit slower. The fireballs he shoots are a bit bigger. To make the battle fair, The Elite Koopa King shoots one fireball at a time. So when a fireball goes offscreen or 1 second timing before another fireball, He shoots another. In order to protect himself from getting hit, A firey aura appears around him. You can't hit him until he overheats. When he is overheated, the firey aura around the Elite Koopa King disappears, And he's stunned for only 7 seconds before he makes another firey aura around him and he starts attacking you again. So you better jump on him before that.
Yellow Elite Koopa Form:
After one hit in his red elite koopa form, His shell color turns yellow. And his attack in this form is that he jumps high offscreen. After that, A big red arrow appears above you. When the arrow turns green, The arrow stops and the Elite Koopa King crashes down fast to where the arrow is, Causing a quake that not only stuns you if you're on the ground, but also causes boulders dropping down from above and that will hurt you in its path. He does not shoot fireballs like an ordinary yellow elite koopa does. After dropping down first, He's still retreated into his shell until he does that attack one more time. After that, you can attack the Elite Koopa King before he does that attack again.
Blue Elite Koopa Form:
After hitting him during the yellow elite koopa form, His shell color turns blue. And he sprouts wings! He flies around the battle. His attack speed is slower than an ordinary blue elite koopa's attack. But he can still target you. What's worse is that before attacking, the Elite Koopa King summons 5 strange blueberries that make a force field around him. When you jump on a blueberry, It disappears. But the force field is still around the Elite Koopa King. After jumping on all blueberries, The force field disappears. And he falls down and he is stunned. You have until 5 seconds to jump on the Elite Koopa King. Otherwise, He will summon 5 blueberries to make another force field to protect himself from getting hit and you will have to jump on the blueberries again.
Multicolored Form: (The Final Form)
After you hit him during the blue elite koopa form, His shell color turns multicolored. The colors are Green, Red, Yellow, and Blue. And he still has wings. He has 4 attacks during the final form. The Elite Koopa King walks around for short time before choosing an attack. After each attack (Execpt the fourth attack), He flies down to the ground, stunning you when you're on the ground (If that works).
1. He flies up and uses psychic powers like shooting psychic spheres at you. And sometimes, He protects himself by making his psychic aura around him that can hurt you when you touch it. After making that aura, He chooses another attack. That aura will last until 30-60 seconds.
2. He flies up and shoots 3 lightning bolts at you. If that, The Elite Koopa King will follow you above and shoots a lightning bolt one at a time. He also sometimes drop 4 electric orbs. The Elite Koopa King drops one at a time. Each electric orb is targeted at you. When an electric orb hits the ground, It turns into 2 electric volts. One goes left, and the other one goes right. The attack is like how a fire lakitu does in Smoldering Shrine. Except more dangerous.
3. The Elite Koopa King flies up and shoots a laser around the battle to hurt you. During that, He'll shoot a laser around the battle 4 times. A laser he shoots randomly chooses a direction like left or right.
4. After each hit, He retreats into his shell and does a dash attack. Just like his green elite koopa form. Except the timing before he stops is twice as long as his green elite koopa form (If that's too long, then the timing before he stops is 3 times as long as a normal green elite koopa's timing before he stops attacking). Also, the speed is a tiny bit faster than his attack speed in his green elite koopa form. If that's unfair, Then leave it as the same attack speed in the Elite Koopa King's green form. His shell is also spiky, so it can hurt you when you jump on it.
The Elite Koopa King takes 3-5 hits to defeat during his final form. After defeating him, He explodes. The end.
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| Last edited on 2012-01-22 04:29:08 AM by Woody. |
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| Posted on 2012-01-23 10:47:14 PM |
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Okay. It's time to get this off of my chest before I explode.
There's randomness, and then there's uncontrollable chaos. There's special effects that create a dream-like and abstract atmosphere, and then there's a series of implausible events trying too hard to be a mindfuck.
When people complete a game, they want to feel a sense of accomplishment. Even though World 9 is the unusual and 'optional' world in this hack, it is still part of the hack, and beating the final boss/completing the final event should really be some kind of conclusion.
Having read this thread, however, I am getting the impression that most people want some kind of Fight Club-esque, "Where is my mind?" kind of ending. "Nothing ever happened--the entire adventure was all a dream. Oh, wait, hang on--the entire hack was actually a drug trip experienced by a Schizophrenic living in an insane asylum in Victorian England. Let's throw in the Deedle Ball and call it an ending, yes?" It's an overdramatization, but not much of one, honestly.
I really can't help but feel that most people are valuing randomness over cohesion when it comes to this part of the hack. An abstract/dream world can be a really great idea, especially in a primarily industrial/physical-themed hack. In spite of this, I feel that there needs to be a ceiling on how bizarre the end of this game gets.
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| Posted on 2012-01-23 11:39:57 PM |
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I have never supported the idea that World 9 is "all a dream"--in fact, I've been quite strongly opposed to this idea from the start. My conception, inherent in all of the various ideas I've put forth, is that World 9 is a perfectly real place, just one that doesn't follow the same rules as our universe, and which is, in its natural state, constantly in flux. Think of it more as a primordial, protean realm.
Now, throughout the main plot, our villains aspire to shackle and chain down the natural world, to try to divert its sprawling and unconstrained forces into their own, narrow channels for their own narrow purposes, quite unconcerned about the unpleasant side effects or long-term sustainability of their schemes. And my interpretation of the connection of World 9 to the larger plot is that even when they discover a fresh, new, unspoiled environent--and one much "freer" tha anything we encounter in our own universe--their first response is to try to see how they can divert this, too, into their pipelines, to again fulfill a narrow range of selfish interests.
And yes, the entire point of having the Deedle-Ball as our villains' man-on-the-field here is that he's a ridiculous, inconsequential figure--but also one with an ego massive enough to think he could bend an entire universe to his will (never mind that he's actually doing a very incomplete and poor job of this--it's still enough to stroke his ego). This is the reason why I gave him a lengthy, absurd monologue and over-the-top boss arena in my stage, followed by an impossible to lose, one-hit battle. The point is that he, like our villains as a whole, are woefully overestimating the degree of control that have--or even conceivable can have--over the world.
And the conclusion I described in my most recent idea was never meant to be a "mindfuck"--if anything, I'd like it to be executed in a way that makes it quite clear what's going on. It's supposed to represent the dam breaking, so to speak, and the pent up naturally forces rushing free all at once. In short, the final area is the ending and sense of accomplishment at Mario having completed the task of wiping out the last, auto-pilot remnant of Norveg's operation--only he's not out of hot water yet, as now has to deal himself with the force he's set free.
For you see, the primal forces of nature, though not malignant, are still dangerous. That was sort of the fact I was trying to drive through in my description. The inhabitants of this world are not trying to hurt Mario. They're thankfully that he's restored the natural order of their world, in fact, and want him to take part in their celebration--they just fail to realize he's not really built for an environment like this, just like they're not made to be twisted into arbitrary forms to suit the assorted business ventures of Norveg et al. So the final area might be thought of an analogue to the victory parade in SMRPG, only Mario's heading in the opposite direction and has to avoid getting run over by the floats. And we end with the parade passing Mario by and noisily and happily heading off to the distance, while Mario himself, much to his relief, returns to his much calmer home world. What's so incomprehensible about that? It's different, to be certain--just as World 9 itself is different--but I don't see anything particularly obscure or unsatisfying about it. If anything it's more satisfying than Mario doing battle with his Shadow Self or something an waking up in bed to find he had accidentally eaten his pillow or some such. We can do better than that sort of hackneyed nonsense, and that's what people are trying to achieve by suggesting somewhat more off-kilter conclusions.
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| Posted on 2012-01-24 12:41:30 PM |
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My idea: Like Frankenstein's Monster~ this... thing, its comprised of pieces/body parts of all the previously defeated bosses.
I have not been following the storyline of this hack, but I take it that Doc Croc is the big bad guy of SMWCP2.
So mario comes in to discover Doc Croc is back, perhaps all beat up and bruised from his previous encounter with Mario, and he is just implementing the finishing touches to his derranged masterpiece in an attempt to re-animate the assorted remnants that he managed to salvage from the previously defeated bosses (his previously failed expiriments? Like I said I have not been following the story  )
Anyway this thing comes to life and it either (a) follows Doc Croc's commands or (b) Demonstrates its power, and the folly in Doc Croc's plan to play God by swiftly gobling him up or swiping him to the side or something like that. At this point the player should not really know what to expect from this fight except that it is going to be ridiculous and that this creature was never meant to be alive, it is very powerful, unpredictable and very pissed off.
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| Last edited on 2012-01-24 12:42:57 PM by altoiddealer. |
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