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| How to Avoid Linear Levels: How do you do it? |
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Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hack Discussion - How to Avoid Linear Levels: How do you do it? |
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| Posted on 2011-12-22 11:13:53 AM |
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Just as the Thread Title says, i'm having a problem making a level non-linear without one way getting a huge advantage (like less enemies or much non-clever used objects). How can I avoid that?
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| Posted on 2011-12-22 11:39:54 AM |
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Not making a level based on "Go right Go right Go right Go right". One way would be going to the right, then making the player go up, then get into a hole that makes it go down, then move left, and go on.
Also, there's nothing wrong in having a linear level, really. Most of SMW's are linear, if you tell.
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| Posted on 2011-12-22 12:26:32 PM |
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I agree. Linear levels are fine as long they're not too linear. SMW's 90% levels are linear. Well, to make it non-linear, you must give Mario different paths than go right, put some warps leading to other sections. Just to make Mario not walk only right but left, up, down, etc.
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| Posted on 2011-12-22 01:14:49 PM |
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Usually, I find that the best way of making a level less linear is probably just the most obvious: by making the level split off once or twice (with them all eventually coming back together in their own accord if you don't want players to get lost). Perhaps you can make the split mandatory by making a dead end with an exit pipe or two preceding it, or you can encourage the need for exploration by giving the player more valuable power-ups, lives, and other secrets (maybe shops or Easter eggs if you're so willing) for anyone willing to go further from the main path. It not only makes the level less linear, but it also makes the play-through much more engaging, when it can be played in so many different ways.
If you don't want to use so many levels, I would also say to use space-filling methods; maybe you can give the player items like P-switches and springboards and a dead end, and encourage the player to tread back a bit in order to find a way past it. While not all levels need to utilize space this way, you can at least find a way so that the player goes through areas that most levels don't contain (like vertical spaces in the top of the screen) or making them go through parts of the level more than once with each time being a little different due to having an item on hand.
That being said, linearity isn't a bad thing in itself. True, there is such thing as "too linear," but that doesn't mean that non-linearity indicates superiority in level design. It's really a matter of personal preference, and neither should be neglected or overemphasized in your hack.
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| Last edited on 2011-12-23 05:00:23 PM by Deeke. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-22 10:57:07 PM |
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Having a balanced amount of secret exits is usually a good way to go about this, using maybe a late in the game cape or the switch palaces so the player, if they are into that kinda stuff can go back and find more levels/world/toad houses/etc. I would extend the level a bit for the secret too, not just key into hole, yah know? I don't know I just like secret exits and completing things, but some people don't so you don't want to overload it either. I'd say probably of worlds 7-8 levels long, 2-3 red levels and 4 at most or something. I'm new to making my own hacks but I've played plenty to attempt to make help stuff. Also Deeke's got some good advice too, just saying.
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| Posted on 2011-12-23 12:09:21 AM |
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Read tip #19 of this thread. I agree with pretty much AxemJinx says there, you don't HAVE to have multiple paths for a level to be linear. You could have several "single paths" and have the player decide for themselves on how to cross them.
I agree with Maxodex's post, BTW. It's also how I design most of my levels. You could have the player go in various directions instead of just left, right, up or down the whole way. And in case you have multiple paths leading to a single area, you could just tone down the difficult of one path if it is harder than the other. Alternatively, you could make one path have a reward (1-up, powerup, Yoshi Coin, bunch of coins, bonus room, etc.) at its end if it is harder than the other. It should be as simple as that.
I personally dislike levels that are too non-linear. You shouldn't focus on this so much. I've played many hacks where are far too many paths and choosing between them tends to be frustrating and arbitrary.
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| Posted on 2011-12-23 01:34:29 PM |
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Originally posted by KevKotI'm having a problem making a level non-linear without one way getting a huge advantage (like less enemies or much non-clever used objects). How can I avoid that?
Usually when I make a split path I end up tweaking one of the paths and testing until I get it right.
I know that's not much of a help, but there really isn't much to do other then that. D:
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| Posted on 2011-12-23 02:56:51 PM |
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Okay, well linear levels can certainly go all kinds of wrong and become very boring. However, I make very linear levels and they seem to be generally well received. Not to boast, but I just wanna say that it can be done right if you are smart about it. All you really need to do is deck out your levels with varying landscapes that keeps the natural flow progressing and interesting. Also throw in some bonus rooms found in pipes or climbable vine areas and you should be good. I mean that's how nintendo used to do it before Mario became 3D. It really isn't too hard to make a good linear level, just experiment a little.
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| Posted on 2011-12-23 04:24:17 PM |
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First of all: Linearity isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some hacks are full of linear levels, and they can still be fun, since the challenge in that case is getting past each obstacle as opposed to exploration.
Anyway, personally, I don't think split paths are a good idea (unless one path is for the normal exit and one for the secret exit or something). They make the other paths feel pointless once you know what the different paths are-- in Front Door, how often do you see anyone enter a door other than door 2 or door 5?
I don't really think AxemJinx's definition counts as non-linear, either. It's more of a way to make a good linear level than how to make a non-linear level in my opinion.
However, if you include a lot of secrets in each level, that can encourage exploration without feeling redundant. I think SomeGuy712x's hack (nearly all levels, not just the ones in that video) is a good example of this. As well as Yoshi's Island (and its hacks) and the DKC series-- having a lot of collectables with a defined 100% works great for non-linearity (this can also be done with Dragon Coins in SMW hacks, though not as many people go for those).
I'd advise that you make sure everything can be collected in one trip through the level (two trips if the level has two exits) without major backtracking, though, as well as making sure every area feels worth visiting as opposed to pointless-- for SMW hacks, I place one Dragon Coin in every secret area (except possibly if it contains the key or otherwise is necessary for an exit).
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| Last edited on 2011-12-23 04:26:30 PM by Zeldara109. |
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| Posted on 2011-12-23 11:31:03 PM |
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Bonus rooms are a pretty effective method of making levels slightly non-linear. I actually use them somewhat as an excuse to add non-linearity to my levels, especially my earlier levels. I'll admit I actually have problems with this subject myself, but maybe that's because I'm not really a fan of split paths (what usually comes to mind when I think non-linear) for some reason. I will also cite the level design of almost every 2D Mario level as an example of good nearly linear design.
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| Posted on 2012-02-05 10:10:57 AM |
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well, speaking of linear levels, I was just trying to make a certain hack, but with only linear for world 1, and maybe half of world 2...
but you get the idea!
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| Posted on 2012-02-05 11:19:35 AM |
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For some reason there are a lot of people who dislike linear levels, that's why they want the focus on non-linearity instead.
But I think there's really nothing wrong with a linear level, and the reason why people don't like linear levels is not because it is linear but because it is mostly all the same again and again, level-design-wise.
I think if someone would do a bunch of linear levels which all focus on something different, no one would complain.
I would say Donkey Kong Country (the first one) is the best example for this, because with the exception of all underwater-levels and that one ice-cave level all levels are linear. But under normal circumstances you wont notice it or get bothered by it, because of the variety in these levels (and of course, the secret stuff adds to it too). Every level features something different and you don't know what's coming next.
So in my opinion, the reason why people here want non-linearity is probably because they played too much linear hacks which little creativity in it or something (meaning all of the levels are much of the same, despite maybe the use of different graphics).
In addition, since we are all hacking the same game, it's obviously harder to come up which something unique, no doubt; and I think people should take this into consideration (not just the hackers, but also the people who play these hacks. After all, it's still SMW and not something totally different and new.) 
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| Last edited on 2012-02-05 11:21:11 AM by FPI. |
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| Posted on 2012-02-05 01:32:13 PM |
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Linear levels arn`t bad as long as they are fun. To make a non-linear level you could just make another path like a bonus level or a secret exit. You could also make Mario go up and left to find a key and a hole for the keyhole.
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| Posted on 2012-02-06 11:31:36 AM |
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...You guys know that MarkSuperCool guy bumped a 2-month old thread? I'm pretty sure that KevKot already got that linear levels aren't bad and how to make non-linear levels from time to time. Keeping this alive seems to have no point now.
sorry if backseat-moderating, just wanted to point out
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| Posted on 2012-02-07 05:30:54 AM |
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FPI, that's not linearity, that's level shape. Two completely different aspects. Barrel Cannon Canyon had multiple routes.
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| Posted on 2012-02-07 07:33:28 AM |
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Originally posted by Maxodex...You guys know that MarkSuperCool guy bumped a 2-month old thread? I'm pretty sure that KevKot already got that linear levels aren't bad and how to make non-linear levels from time to time. Keeping this alive seems to have no point now.
sorry if backseat-moderating, just wanted to point out
Bumping a 2-month old thread shouldn't matter much in this particular forum because even though KevKot already had his question answered, there is no harm in discussing this topic more and having people post advice/suggestions/opinions.
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| Last edited on 2012-02-07 07:33:47 AM by Nesquik Bunny. |
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| Posted on 2012-02-07 08:30:27 AM |
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Originally posted by IceguyBumping a 2-month old thread shouldn't matter much in this particular forum because even though KevKot already had his question answered, there is no harm in discussing this topic more and having people post advice/suggestions/opinions.
I'm not really getting the bumping rule anymore, but okay. Sorry.
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| Posted on 2012-02-10 12:32:34 PM |
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Well, bumping is when the thread is a single question and not a discussion.
Thanks for all the replies, guys! They all were very inspiriative and gave me a hand full of nice ideas. I realized that a big part of my levels could be linear, because when making this thread, I throught that linear levels would be a no-go.
On my opinion now, I personally now tend to place some bonus rooms or secret exit to avoid linearity for a little part of the levels, or even found another way: Small optional puzzles. I orginially never liked them, but by playing a lot of puzzle hacks, I found some nice ideas for them.
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Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hack Discussion - How to Avoid Linear Levels: How do you do it? |
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