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| (Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition |
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Forum Index - Archive - Old Contests & Events - (Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition |
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 07:11:00 AM |
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Originally posted by matheletemaking my level has been a fun experience, and this whole contest has been an experience for me, regardless of how I place.
Mathelete, I'll respect you for the feeling you have, which should be a model for other people who also think they aren't going to win. Contests like this aren't just for winning, they are there to make fun.
BTW, I'm looking forward for that video! ;)
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 10:10:53 AM |
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Originally posted by XkeeperPLUSI'm also rating your hacks based on FUN LEVEL. Unfortunately most of you really suck at that part.
"Fun" is subjective.
QuotePlease to be making better hacks because my savestate load key is wearing out really fast.
Most of the entries don't even require tool assistance, that's just your own sub-par playing speaking there. By the way, being vulgar like that only makes you look foolish, childish, and too much like a tryhard, regardless of the point you're trying to make.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 10:35:37 AM |
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Originally posted by MrDeePayOriginally posted by XkeeperPLUSI'm also rating your hacks based on FUN LEVEL. Unfortunately most of you really suck at that part.
"Fun" is subjective.
And yet, tight as hell jumps where you have to duck when you're big to 1 tile wide platforms, muncher runs, p-switch carrying, and lack of powerups isn't subjective.
Just because someone finds it fun, doesn't mean it's good level design. I was watching last night, and this is the kind of stuff I saw.
And he didn't even really play the kaizo levels. :|
I've also played a few myself, and well, powerups are -really- sparse in a lot of them, as are coins.
Although, I will say, holy shit Dinomar's entry is crazy. I had a hard time figuring out how that was vanilla. It's awesome, and the level isn't too bad either (if a tad long)
It's not all annoying, and I haven't played all what everyone seems to think the frontrunners are yet, but so far the majority of it has the same problems I've seen time and time again from this community.
I'm glad at least quality assurance has been checking these problems in SMWCP2 >_>
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 10:38:17 AM |
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"Make better hacks." That is too vague to even count as criticism.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 10:40:24 AM |
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Originally posted by Sokobansolver"Make better hacks." That is too vague to even count as criticism.
I agree.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 11:04:32 AM |
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Originally posted by MrDeePayOriginally posted by XkeeperPLUSI'm also rating your hacks based on FUN LEVEL. Unfortunately most of you really suck at that part.
"Fun" is subjective.
So is art. But I don't think poop smeared on a wall would be defined as art by anybody rational.
QuoteQuotePlease to be making better hacks because my savestate load key is wearing out really fast.
Most of the entries don't even require tool assistance, that's just your own sub-par playing speaking there. By the way, being vulgar like that only makes you look foolish, childish, and too much like a tryhard, regardless of the point you're trying to make.
Let me give you a real example of how one hack went.
Start:
1. Oh, I can go left here. ...which leads to an inescapable pit with water, so I immediately lose life #1. There's no obvious way out outside from dying.
2. Well, let's go right. That's cool, there's munchers placed seemingly random along the ground, and one block off the ground. The guy is trying to be cute, I guess. So add another death because I had the audacity to check if these ones one tile off the ground hurt (because there were munchers in the intro that were purely decorative). Death #2.
3. OK, a bit further to the right this time. Huge pit with flopping fish and random glass tiles for corners (????). Some random searching finds a note block out, and a door on top of an upside down blue-! block. Try to jump on the door... death. What a shocker, I guess. Why does an upside-down ! block hurt me? Who knows.
4. I find a pipe that leads nowhere of value, and another pipe a bit further along that path that returns me to the start. Fun! Nothing like going around in a circle.
5. I go further to the right in the main stage to see what's over there. A big, plain slope.... which ends in more munchers. Why? Who knows. My patience with this hack and its obtuse design leads me to just slide into the pit, basically throw away my final life and then proceed to toss it into the shit pile.
You know who you are.
I also had a lot of "fun" experiences involving bugs, where someone had the bright idea to put an invisible wall along the top of his level to stop people from jumping out of it, but forgot one area. So of course I jump off the top of the screen and get stuck in some scenery with no way out.
Another fun example: blocks in some dungeon stage laid out like "[spike][block][spike]". Here's a fun fact for you, designer: those spikes reduce the safe zone for a single block by about half. If you go anywhere near the edge of it, even if you would ordinarily still be on top of the block, you take damage and die. Awesome.
This is not fun. This is bad design, and almost all of you are horribly guilty of it.
(I also keep a count in my head of the number of random munchers and spikes thrown about a level. I take away exponential numbers of points based on how many I see. One or two is passable. Five is starting to get grating, and if you honestly need to use any more munchers to make a level you're doing it very, very wrong.)
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 11:10:18 AM |
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Originally posted by XkeeperPLUSOriginally posted by MrDeePayOriginally posted by XkeeperPLUSI'm also rating your hacks based on FUN LEVEL. Unfortunately most of you really suck at that part.
"Fun" is subjective.
So is art. But I don't think poop smeared on a wall would be defined as art by anybody rational.
Piss Christ?
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 11:12:55 AM |
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Originally posted by XkeeperPLUSSo is art. But I don't think poop smeared on a wall would be defined as art by anybody rational.
Your point?
That level is doable without tool assistance, but it had garbage design.
Quoteexperience #2 + words
Also a case of bad design, but not necessarily of one that requires tool assistance. You just come off as having a very, very low threshold.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 11:34:03 AM |
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Originally posted by MrDeePay
That level is doable without tool assistance, but it had garbage design.
Quoteexperience #2 + words
Also a case of bad design, but not necessarily of one that requires tool assistance. You just come off as having a very, very low threshold.
Well, it's certainly nice that, presented with arguments that directly invalidate the stupid thing you just finished saying, you go "Bu-bu-but-but those don't count!"
Bravo to you sir.
oh cool you can't embed a youtube video here apparently.
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| Last edited on 2012-03-05 11:43:31 AM by XkeeperPLUS. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:08:01 PM |
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Originally posted by DinomarI don't get it...
As in, there's no discernible connection between many of the tiles you end up using and the original game's graphics- in the background, for example. Contrast your level with Underway's, which is very detailed but also looks very much like the original game. Don't get me wrong, though- like I said, it looked really impressive.
Originally posted by tatangaPrepare to get a huge amount of backlash after the contest though.
I'm pretty sure we can handle it :b
Originally posted by XkeeperPLUS
You're trying to apply an article about how to introduce basic gameplay when people first play a game to a community that makes levels for a game for which they already know the basic gameplay. Granted, this is an interesting read and may help remind people that properly introducing their level concept (plus any new elements involved) is important, but beyond that, the article is too theoretical and far-removed from actually building a stage to be of much use to designers here. It feels like you're trying to hawk a panacea when what people really need is contextual advice (such as what you said in a subsequent post about Click Clock Mario). Don't get me wrong- people can learn something from that article for sure- but the way you present it makes it seem like more than it is. Introducing new mechanics is important, but is only one aspect of level design.
Originally posted by matheletemaking my level has been a fun experience, and this whole contest has been an experience for me, regardless of how I place.
I would say that is the right attitude to have (:
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| Last edited on 2012-03-05 12:55:35 PM by AxemJinx. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:18:46 PM |
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Originally posted by matheletemaking my level has been a fun experience, and this whole contest has been an experience for me, regardless of how I place.
I think I feel the same way.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:30:23 PM |
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Originally posted by matheletemaking my level has been a fun experience, and this whole contest has been an experience for me, regardless of how I place I only want to be ranked higher than someone....
I think I feel nearly the same way.
On a related note, who cares about XKeeperPlus rating, especially if
a) we never heard anything from him before and
b) something unorthodox as "fun" despite the fact that i don't think - for example - that Ripperon-X's level was, despite beginning, not fun at all. Should I tell him "Yo bro you suck"? That doesn't make sense. It was actually a little flaw if think about it, fixing it could be possible by simply removing stuff. That's all.
(I'm wonderin though why a lot people says that most levels are to hard, because it sounds like everyone is playing the same entry. I mean it can't be possible that every level is identical "to hard"...right?
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| Last edited on 2012-03-05 12:31:49 PM by Shog. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:39:59 PM |
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Originally posted by ShogOn a related note, who cares about Xkeeper rating, especially if
a) we never heard anything from him before and
b) something unorthodox as "fun" despite the fact that i don't think - for example - that Ripperon-X's level was, despite beginning, not fun at all. Should I tell him "Yo bro you suck"? That doesn't make sense. It was actually a little flaw if think about it, fixing it could be possible by simply removing stuff. That's all.
I've been around a lot longer than you have. I just don't participate on SMWC because quite frankly I hate SMWC with a passion for a variety of reasons, the least of which is how everybody thinks "Ooh! You know what my hack needs? MORE MUNCHERS."
Also most levels can indeed be fun by removing things! I find I enjoy SMW hacks a lot more if I, say, forget to patch the ROM.
(Also, maybe because I'm not usually part of your community, so for the most part you're getting the raw opinion of someone who isn't part of SMWCirclejerk.)
Quote(I'm wonderin though why a lot people says that most levels are to hard, because it sounds like everyone is playing the same entry. I mean it can't be possible that every level is identical "to hard"...right?
Maybe because they are. If you're on SMWC, chances are you play a lot of hacks, which means you might actually get good at the game, especially if you decide to play stupid overly-hard hacks that require precise jumps. I don't. In fact, I don't play SMW hacks at all aside from when the contest rolls around, because it's supposed to strictly be a level-design contest and not who can put the most unfitting music and graphics ripped from their favorite shitty game into SMW.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:46:31 PM |
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If you don't like this community, why don't you make us a good favor and leave this? Or is there some "other" thing you might want to say?
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:47:25 PM |
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He's offering an outside opinion.
You know, like when we say ASMT wasn't as great as it was made out to be.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:52:21 PM |
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XkeeperPLUS: Fun is subjective. Because I had lot of fun playing some of the entries unlike you. I can agree that some levels weren't perfect, but saying there were not fun at all is a bit much. For example you put Maximum Athleticus in your no fun folder and I don't understand why, because it was a nice simple level with classical obstacles. There was nothing wrong with it and I enjoyed it. See, it's not that the level was not fun, it's just that you didn't have fun.
Originally posted by matheletemaking my level has been a fun experience, and this whole contest has been an experience for me, regardless of how I place.
That's what I think in every contest I enter. I don't enter for winning, but for having fun. And this fun can be obtained in different ways. For example in the VLDC2011 I made a joke level with lines in penis shapes because I think it was funny. This time I made a serious level in a switch palace with rooms using gimmicks in the theme of "darkness" and I enjoyed it. That's why I love contest.  I would like to win at least once though. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 12:58:15 PM |
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Originally posted by yoguiXkeeperPLUS: Fun is subjective. Because I had lot of fun playing some of the entries unlike you. I can agree that some levels weren't perfect, but saying there were not fun at all is a bit much. For example you put Maximum Athleticus in your no fun folder and I don't understand why, because it was a nice simple level with classical obstacles. There was nothing wrong with it and I enjoyed it. See, it's not that the level was not fun, it's just that you didn't have fun.
I'm sure I could dig out the video for why it's there, but not right now. Maybe later.
Originally posted by Ripperon-XIf you don't like this community, why don't you make us a good favor and leave this?
boo hoo
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 01:16:13 PM |
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Originally posted by XkeeperPLUSMaybe because they are. If you're on SMWC, chances are you play a lot of hacks, which means you might actually get good at the game, especially if you decide to play stupid overly-hard hacks that require precise jumps. I don't. In fact, I don't play SMW hacks at all aside from when the contest rolls around, because it's supposed to strictly be a level-design contest and not who can put the most unfitting music and graphics ripped from their favorite shitty game into SMW.
Then:
1. Do better.
2. Don't play the hacks at all.
Shut up and leave if you don't have anything helpful to say to anyone of us. Saying "you guys suck because i cant play these hacks" is not going to make us make "funner" hacks.
I'm still laughing at the fact you joined just to complain about this.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 01:21:06 PM |
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Originally posted by MaxodeX
1. Do better.
2. Don't play the hacks at all.
That's not very nice.
And it's definitely an attitude that is horrible for a level design contest. I'm seeing it from users and judges now, and sure, the judges and entrants are all SMW hackers, but it's not a "Make a level for SMW hackers to play" contest, it's a level design contest.
If someone says your level isn't designed well and it's too hard, or is annoying in how you have to drag around something, or how there's no powerups (all common problems in entries) then well, your level isn't designed well.
In good level design, you use the level to teach the player about what's coming, so that they know what to expect and can avoid it later. Saying "they should know what to do already" is setting yourself up for situations like this, where an outsider feels like the level design is cheap or dumb.
"They just aren't good" is just an excuse.
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| Posted on 2012-03-05 01:23:39 PM |
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I completely agree with Xkeeper. I think we needn't forget that first of all, these are hacks of SMW, and they are all platformers. As such, graphics, or music (most of the time, badly ported and sounding out of place) should only come after level design. Alas, having played a few hacks in my time, I have noticed that the level design is not very well thought out. Most of the time, the player is put in a purely impossible situation where they will have to undergo trial and error to pass. Yet a good platformer should challenge your skill, and actually let you become better as you go, whilst having a good difficulty curve. Crowded screens, inintuitiveness are abound in these level entries and the hackers, aware of their failures, try and hide these enormous flaws with literal makeup; fancy graphics and music, all meant to appease the eye and ear. Yet the game remains largely unfun; merely its looks trick you into thinking effort was put into it.
Up your ante, SMWC, please.
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Forum Index - Archive - Old Contests & Events - (Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition |
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