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(Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition
Forum Index - Archive - Old Contests & Events - (Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition
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Originally posted by Sarge
but, but but but but...


Because you have to wait for Magikoopa to randomly warp to where he needs to be to try to attack Mario. Much of the time he'll be in the upper right corner doing nothing, and when he is in position, you have to time your jumps right with the Bowser fireballs that are constantly being fired your way AND have to constantly avoid the Dry Bones that will always reassemble itself. These things can (and will) easily throw off the timing necessary to make a big enough gap in the Turn Block wall to pass through because of the constant movement required.

What you have completely and utterly failed to do was compensate for a player going through this level blindly. You have things hazard blatantly behind view, hazards that attack Mario mid-jump, annoying waiting games, and idiotic precision jumping. Just because you can beat your own level without tool assistance does not prove anything substantial in the long run. Just because you can do it with a keyboard does not prove anything substantial in the long run. (Most people play SMW hacks with only a keyboard.)
Originally posted by Sokobansolver
Some of the ribbon decor in 9" fireballs looks like it might contribute to fake difficulty due to enemies being able to hide behind them and unfairly hurt Mario. I liked it better without.


Yeah I realized that. This was especially unfair with the ghosts, since if one of them was hiding behind a ribbon, you would not know that it was there. I should not have enabled layer priority...
Originally posted by MrDeePay
Originally posted by Sarge
but, but but but but...

Blah blah blah

That's not the point I'm trying to make, as some of the critic I've received (bits and pieces) go in one ear and out the other. The magikoopa segments are hard, and I actually expected people to not like that section as it actually involved waiting. It was in the original game, but in a more tame sense.
Next off, the whole lack of compensation for blind players may be true to an extent. How am I suppose to compensate for an enemy barely obscured? Nine times out of ten there is some form of visual hint (such as curtains being cut out to show a thwomp is behind them, or a football being kicked to make the player quickly locate the source).
When you refer to hazards that attack mario midjump, I can only think of one feasible instance, which is usually avoided unless the situation is done in a very uncommon way.
Overall I feel as though a lot of this could have been avoided if the palettes were brighter which I've admitted and agreed with beforehand. I suppose the overall dark palette selection makes a lot of hazards blend in. That, and a few oversights of what I thought was fair seem to be the biggest problem. Everything else should be noticeable and able to be handled by any player, unless they have some problem seeing, or they're too worried about everything else going on.
Originally posted by Sarge
That's not the point I'm trying to make, as some of the critic I've received (bits and pieces) go in one ear and out the other. The magikoopa segments are hard, and I actually expected people to not like that section as it actually involved waiting.


Things like that can hurt the pacing of your level.

Quote
It was in the original game, but in a more tame sense.


You weren't always attacked constantly when SMW did it as well. Hell, it was also possible for you to outright skip those sections altogether if you had a cape (which you don't provide until AFTER that spot).

Quote
Next off, the whole lack of compensation for blind players may be true to an extent. How am I suppose to compensate for an enemy barely obscured?


Make him easier to spot for the player.

Quote
Nine times out of ten there is some form of visual hint (such as curtains being cut out to show a thwomp is behind them, or a football being kicked to make the player quickly locate the source).


Obviously you didn't do a good enough job.

Quote
When you refer to hazards that attack mario midjump, I can only think of one feasible instance, which is usually avoided unless the situation is done in a very uncommon way.


Explain to me how a blind player is suppose to make it past the Thwomp trio at the beginning of the level that borders on Big Mario Discrimination, then. Or the one at the end without landing on the spike in an attempt at faking the Thwomp out.
Originally posted by MrDeePay
Quote
Nine times out of ten there is some form of visual hint (such as curtains being cut out to show a thwomp is behind them, or a football being kicked to make the player quickly locate the source).


Obviously you didn't do a good enough job.

Adding to this, palettes also help here. A super dark palette that clashes severely with the status bar (oh man did it) takes the player's attention away from the top of the screen due to the fact that everything up there that pops out at them is the status bar. This caused enemies, walls, and even spikes to vanish behind the status bar, even though some of the level required the player to stand or jump near it when things were behind the status bar. If the level had more contrast, perhaps these obstacles could be avoided better. However, this wouldn't fix poor placement.

As an aside, bright and dark are not complementary all the time. Please examine this. It is supposed to apply to web pages, but it is basic color science that was used in many things. It would work wonders with a proper application in SMW. Rainbow palettes that are dark don't work when everything is coated in the same colors.
Originally posted by MrDeePay
Explain to me how a blind player is suppose to make it past the Thwomp trio at the beginning of the level that borders on Big Mario Discrimination, then. Or the one at the end without landing on the spike in an attempt at faking the Thwomp out.


The third thwomp becomes visible while you're doing whatever to get past the first thwomp. Enough time is given for whatever method you are doing. If you're ballsy and run and jump under them, you should have no problem continuing your sprint for another few blocks. If you're being patient and spin jumping on each of them, you will have time to think of how to get through. The more ballsy you are, the quicker you have to and can react.

Originally posted by cpubasic13
Adding to this, palettes also help here. A super dark palette that clashes severely with the status bar (oh man did it) takes the player's attention away from the top of the screen due to the fact that everything up there that pops out at them is the status bar. This caused enemies, walls, and even spikes to vanish behind the status bar, even though some of the level required the player to stand or jump near it when things were behind the status bar. If the level had more contrast, perhaps these obstacles could be avoided better. However, this wouldn't fix poor placement.

As an aside, bright and dark are not complementary all the time. Please examine this. It is supposed to apply to web pages, but it is basic color science that was used in many things. It would work wonders with a proper application in SMW. Rainbow palettes that are dark don't work when everything is coated in the same colors.

That is something I can agree on to an extent. As the biggest problem I've seen (that snowballed into other problems) was that lack of contrast = hazards blending = hard to see = unfair.
The whole reason I actually didn't use bright colors was because I didn't want to give the player a seizure (Examples of such can be found in my first attempt, which is level 105 in the rom.)
Originally posted by mathelete
I realized my misake in the appeal of the level: I spammed the same decoration instead of varying it.

A turd with frosting and sprinkles is still a turd.

Why don't you try focusing on everything that's horribly wrong with the layout of your level, the part that actually matters?
I think I already mentioned what was wrong with the layout of my level, as did a few others. I don't think we need to discuss that anymore, we are just beating a dead plumber by doing so.
Originally posted by Sarge
The third thwomp becomes visible while you're doing whatever to get past the first thwomp. Enough time is given for whatever method you are doing. If you're ballsy and run and jump under them, you should have no problem continuing your sprint for another few blocks. If you're being patient and spin jumping on each of them, you will have time to think of how to get through. The more ballsy you are, the quicker you have to and can react.


You say nothing about the second one, which is the one that gets Mario the most.

Quote
The whole reason I actually didn't use bright colors was because I didn't want to give the player a seizure (Examples of such can be found in my first attempt, which is level 105 in the rom.)


Then you should not have went through making the level the way you did.
Originally posted by MrDeePay


You say nothing about the second one, which is the one that gets Mario the most.

Then that's user error. Not much is going on, you have time to observe what is ahead, and you can actually plan around it.

Originally posted by MrDeePay

Then you should not have went through making the level the way you did.

Well maybe I wanted to make it that way? If there was a problem with every idea, we would be nowhere in life.
Originally posted by Sarge

Well maybe I wanted to make it that way? If there was a problem with every idea, we would be nowhere in life.


Note that, not sure if you want a high ranking now, it is better to design the level how the the greater community wants them, like I noticed right now, I bet my hack is also unfair and to hard ;)
(Well I included enough Powerups, I hope it's well enough) then being unique but "unfair", I have to say, the second thwomp is really unfair, because you've have to concentrate on to much things...
eh what am I typing, I'm not a judge

Anyway I thought the level would be much better by changing the palette and removing some of the spikes, creating a fair level (with some magikoopa annoyance^^)
Yes I know you mentioned the palettes, but I forgot one thing:

Reznor was, compared to the level, really easy. That was somehow strange.
Originally posted by Sarge
Originally posted by MrDeePay


You say nothing about the second one, which is the one that gets Mario the most.

Then that's user error. Not much is going on, you have time to observe what is ahead, and you can actually plan around it.

Originally posted by MrDeePay

Then you should not have went through making the level the way you did.

Well maybe I wanted to make it that way? If there was a problem with every idea, we would be nowhere in life.



Actually, not EVERY idea has a problem. Chances are, you would have come up with an even better idea that would be acceptable.
I changed mind: actually i wanna know some opinions about my level, but from those streamers, though, not from the judges: i want to know the opinion of the judges after the results. What did people say in the stream chat about my level?
Originally posted by Dinomar
I changed mind: actually i wanna know some opinions about my level, but from those streamers, though, not from the judges: i want to know the opinion of the judges after the results. What did people say in the stream chat about my level?


They were amazed at the graphics. Then they were trying to identify which tiles each thing was composed of. They put it in the "5 - I can't beleive it's not buttery" folder.
Originally posted by mathelete
Originally posted by Dinomar
I changed mind: actually i wanna know some opinions about my level, but from those streamers, though, not from the judges: i want to know the opinion of the judges after the results. What did people say in the stream chat about my level?


They were amazed at the graphics. Then they were trying to identify which tiles each thing was composed of. They put it in the "5 - I can't beleive it's not buttery" folder.


Yes, but i want a more detailed thing, and i really would like to know that from who really was there.
Hacking and Coughing
Originally posted by Dinomar
Yes, but i want a more detailed thing, and i really would like to know that from who really was there.

Wrong link.
Go to the 1:20:00 mark for yours, Dinomar.
I've been watching the stream for the past couple nights, mostly to see what they thought of my level. While waiting, I saw a couple interesting ones, such as Ludus's limit-pushing level with the transparent background and vanilla implementation of NPCs and cutscenes. Others looked really nice, but employed some cheap hazards. One example of this was the level with the deadly grape soda water. There was a section where you had to jump from rope to rope in cramped quarters while avoiding Volcano Lotus fireballs. Another level, quite honestly, looked like something that was just slapped together in Lunar Magic. All the while, I was commenting on the ups and downs of the levels in the chat, such as mentally awarding "style points" for creative use of vanilla graphics. Unfortunately, most of the levels that would earn style points would not fare so well in the overall design department.
Originally posted by Gamma V
I've been watching the stream for the past couple nights, mostly to see what they thought of my level. While waiting, I saw a couple interesting ones, such as Ludus's limit-pushing level with the transparent background and vanilla implementation of NPCs and cutscenes. Others looked really nice, but employed some cheap hazards. One example of this was the level with the deadly grape soda water. There was a section where you had to jump from rope to rope in cramped quarters while avoiding Volcano Lotus fireballs. Another level, quite honestly, looked like something that was just slapped together in Lunar Magic. All the while, I was commenting on the ups and downs of the levels in the chat, such as mentally awarding "style points" for creative use of vanilla graphics. Unfortunately, most of the levels that would earn style points would not fare so well in the overall design department.

Yeah, I noticed that.

It's almost like they tried to make their level look good instead of play good, and it usually ended up looking all dark and dull and bleh.

There's been a couple pretty okay ones so far though, and again, dinomar's is awesome,

Honestly, I'm expecting dinomar to be in the top 3, if not first.
What is defined as "fun"?

I'd like some entry examples.
I'm simply curious.
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