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(Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition
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In a one-level hack, cutscenes are supposed to give the player a sense of progression. But if you leave all of them for the end...well, you just wasted a bunch of screens. Now if the contest was not a level design contest, but a "most clever use of vanilla stuff" contest, then sure, go ahead (has there been/will there be such a contest?)
Originally posted by mathelete
In a one-level hack, cutscenes are supposed to give the player a sense of progression. But if you leave all of them for the end...well, you just wasted a bunch of screens. Now if the contest was not a level design contest, but a "most clever use of vanilla stuff" contest, then sure, go ahead (has there been/will there be such a contest?)

Some of the old vanilla contests gave a lot for that (They had a big creativity score to factor in), but this one was strictly level design.
Originally posted by MrDeePay

That is not an excuse. The way you have the spot set up requires more work to get past than necessary and is also a blatant, BLATANT case of Big Mario Discrimination.


Yep. Totally not the creator's fault that they decided to not pay more attention. In fact, everyone who has designed a level in video game history has designed absolute crap because they assumed that players would try and avoid obstacles hiding in plain sight.
Also, the method you may be taking is probably enforcing big mario discrimination. It's like a less obvious case of this:


Originally posted by MrDeePay

That's why you try to minimize the issues as much as you can. You just did not do a good enough job at it. To be honest, the more I play through this level, the more I just want to give the thing a lower score.


I thought I already admitted that I didn't do a good enough job as I thought I did. That's just restating the obvious.

Also at this point in time, I don't give two actual craps about points. Give me a low enough score to get last place if you freaking want to. Level design is not an absolute science as it relies on the opinions of others, not facts. The only real reason I'm still arguing is that I find it absolutely ignorant to dock points on situations where the player is at fault. User error is an excuse, otherwise we will reach this point:


Also, in my honest opinion, if a judge's judgement is affected by emotions to the point where he or she has to bash areas where they are clearly at fault, then that doesn't make a good judge. But hey, my opinion is just my opinion.
Originally posted by Sarge
Originally posted by MrDeePay

That is not an excuse. The way you have the spot set up requires more work to get past than necessary and is also a blatant, BLATANT case of Big Mario Discrimination.


Yep. Totally not the creator's fault that they decided to not pay more attention. In fact, everyone who has designed a level in video game history has designed absolute crap because they assumed that players would try and avoid obstacles hiding in plain sight.
Also, the method you may be taking is probably enforcing big mario discrimination. It's like a less obvious case of this:


Oh wow, sometimes professional game designers mess up and make level design mistakes. Tell me more.

That's a terrible example. It's a pity path if you get hit in a level, that for where it is on the map, is difficult. Get over yourself. There's a difference between having small mario shortcuts (which Nintendo has always done) and making it difficult for big mario to actually progress through the level.

SMB has a good example of this in 1-2. Small Mario can just run under, and big Mario can just break the blocks. it's longer, but not harder. (And is technically there so SMALL Mario can't get stuck since he can't break blocks.)
I know we already talked about mathelete's entry. We know how appropiate to Kaizo really is(not quite). I made this video to show you my savestateless run of his entry.
The entry
Last edited on 2012-03-08 07:20:05 PM by Ripperon-X.
Lol I hope you did not start raging over that level. If you did, I apologize for that.
Originally posted by Sarge
Yep. Totally not the creator's fault that they decided to not pay more attention. In fact, everyone who has designed a level in video game history has designed absolute crap because they assumed that players would try and avoid obstacles hiding in plain sight.


Holy hell, this is hopeless. You seem to have this jaded take on difficulty that is blinding you to what is right there to your face. The amount of precision necessary to make it past that setup at the start, especially as Big Mario without taking any damage, is just stupid.

Quote
Also, the method you may be taking is probably enforcing big mario discrimination. It's like a less obvious case of this:
http://i686.photobucket.com/albums/vv226/Tutankoopa/screenie.png


....

That is an alternate path that only Small Mario can take that dumps him off at the start of the next room. Big Mario can continue through the first room (hell, Small Mario can as well if he's feeling risky) and he'll be placed in the middle of the next room. Like Teyla said, that is a terrible example and there is a difference between Small Mario having another way through a level and making it difficult for Big Mario through the main path.

Quote
I thought I already admitted that I didn't do a good enough job as I thought I did. That's just restating the obvious.


It's nice to beat things into skulls once in a while.

Quote
Also at this point in time, I don't give two actual craps about points. Give me a low enough score to get last place if you freaking want to. Level design is not an absolute science as it relies on the opinions of others, not facts.


Contrary to what some people would like to believe, quality is more objective than people say it is. You made numerous bad decisions that lead to a level that is of ridiculous difficulty and quality. (Cool or Cruel would be an example of a ridiculous difficulty hack that remains to be Kaizo, albeit by Kaizo standards.) You just have a personal (very) high tolerance to difficulty (higher than mine, at least), nothing more.

Quote
words


Your level is full of bad decisions and the fact that you're defending most of them to the death despite how glaringly obvious they are to the player shows strong devotion.

How about I attract Axem to your posts and let him weigh in on the matter (though I already know what he gave your level). I'm sure he can explain to you what's wrong with your level than I can. I seriously hope you're just Trolling.
Last edited on 2012-03-08 08:47:15 PM by MrDeePay.
Originally posted by MrDeePay
Quote
words

Real helpful.
Please elaborate.
Originally posted by Sarge
Originally posted by MrDeePay
stuff

more stuff


So after reading this, I decided to play your entry to see what the fuss is about. Let's look at it:




Notice that thwomp there in the top right corner? I didn't, because it's partially obscured by FG elements that seem to exist ONLY to obscure things. Imagine my surprise when it landed on me. It wasn't fun.

I probably would have noticed it if I had stopped and looked, but consider the part directly before: 3 2-tile platforms with thwomps above them that require precise spinjumps which have to be crossed quickly or you take a hit (also spikes). It never crossed my mind to stop and look near the status bar; I was too busy trying to figure out what that thing was behind the fence.






MrDeePay was right about this segment: the timing required to clear a section of turn blocks so I can pass was disrupted constantly by, you know, trying not to die from the constantly shooting and reassembling obstacles.






This is just overkill here, made even worse by the obscuring tarp-thing. Shown here: Mario is obscured behind the tarp-thing, and I have no idea where he's going to land. I then landed on a saw and died.

Also, considering the last section, there's no way in hell I'm going after that thing I think may be a yoshi coin.





I'm starting to think the magikoopa in general was just a bad idea. It made things much more difficult than they needed to be.

Look at where it is in the picture (it just showed up). If, when making this jump, I jump too high, I get hit by the spike and die; if I don't jump high enough, I fall in the lava and die; otherwise, I'll get hit by the magikoopa's magic or a bullet bill on the left.

I can risk spinjumping on the magic, but then I run the chance of hitting either the first spike, the spikes surrounded by coins, or the too-well-hidden thwomp above the spikes surrounded by coins.

Or I could wait, dodge the magikoopa's magic, and proceed normally, but I hate unnecessary waiting. /shrug





Also sometimes it shows up at places like this that only mean more waiting/dodging.





Let's look at all of the things here: chucks, spikes, flying koopas whose trajectory leads them dangerously close to the spikes, a bullet bill shooter, obscuring tarp-things, lava, and a very hard to see platform that I didn't know existed until I landed on it accidentally.

#w{x(}

Also, ironically, that was the yoshi coin that was the easiest to get for me.





I think you said you could get this coin by bouncing off the football kicked by the chuck. I tried getting the coin using this method, and 100% of the time I either died or completely missed the football.


EDIT: Also the visual gimmick has nothing to do with the actual level, and only makes it harder to tell what's happening.
Last edited on 2012-03-08 08:58:30 PM by TRS.
Originally posted by Sarge
The whole reason I actually didn't use bright colors was because I didn't want to give the player a seizure

I'm not saying anything about your level (I haven't played any of the levels, and I don't plan to), but here's a tip: if you want to avoid making bright, distracting colours, try desaturating them instead of plain darkening them. For example, take #00FF00. If I darken it to #004000, well, that's not exactly easy to look at, especially against a black background. Instead, try slightly desaturating the colour as well as darkening, to #337733, or something like that. The way you've done it, judging by TRS's screenshots, is actually, to be honest, quite painful to look at, mainly in the cases of the deep bleeding red, darkly ominous purple and soul-consuming blue. Again, desaturation looks nicer. And even then, I don't think anybody has any qualms with a bright rainbow, do they?

Also, I watched Xkeeper's playthrough my level, and man was it hilarious. I liked how the part where he gave up and moved it to the NaN folder was probably the easiest part of the level. For everyone else who found the level too difficult: the level was intended to be of an above-average world 7 (of, say, 9) difficulty, and the original title I had for the level in development was XOXO.
I've been noticing a lot of discussion about Kaleidoscope Castle, and I have a few things to say.

Originally posted by Sarge
I'm still up for knowing what was actually bad in my level (Kaleidoscope Castle). The people I've had actually test it were too nice to spit any criticism.

Judging from this comment, one would think you're convinced there are flaws in your level, but no one is being courageous enough to break the news to you. Contrast this with the tone of your more recent posts, in which you seem to be defending your level to the death. Which is it, exactly? Then I look back to this post:

Originally posted by Sarge
the only responses I've really gotten were from friends who probably didn't feel like arguing

Then, do you want feedback so you can improve your level, or so you can argue?


Moving on:
Originally posted by Sarge
all the drapes with spikes behind them had holes

How exactly are players supposed to pick up on such a subtle nuance while at the same time grappling with the high difficulty?

Originally posted by Sarge
The yoshi coin beneath the turn blocks isn't a problem because you can effectively SEE turn blocks beneath it. Logic should say "Oh, I can spin jump through turn blocks, but there is lava beneath another set of turn blocks".

The entire turn block formation is obfuscated by a fence, and there are three grinders buzzing around as well. Again, how are players supposed to identify the danger while at the same time focusing on the grinder brigade (and the magikoopa, if it's still active)?

Originally posted by Sarge
And the thwomps hiding behind scenery shouldn't be that much of a problem, as they are still VISIBLE, such as the fourth screenshot. It's not as if they are completely obscured.

Their visibility doesn't tell the whole story. That setup in particular comes right after a harrowing sequence of precision jumps, and players are led into a false sense of security that nearly guarantees they get hit at that precise spot. Why do you think the point has come up so many times? The level conditions players to fail. It's not like the concept of hidden thwomps is properly introduced, either- there's only one other before this setup, and that one is quickly forgotten amid all the other demanding setups the level throws at players.

Originally posted by Sarge
Also, what's with everyone getting upset at the sections which require you to wait for a magikoopa? It's not like you're standing still or something

A cyclical action is little better than waiting, as it quickly devolves into repetition.

Originally posted by Sarge
ALSO Also, I don't see a problem with a little challenge, as long as there isn't an ultra-specific way you have to do it.

While I agree there is more than one way to pass some of the obstacles in the level, pretty much all of these ways require a very high level of precision, so in actuality, all you've managed to do is provide multiple ultra-specific ways to do things, which again, isn't much better.

Originally posted by Sarge
THANK YOU! Those levels are fun to me.

If you like making these kinds of levels, that's fine- make them to your heart's content. The issue with which posters in this thread are concerned, however, is whether the level is a good fit for the contest- don't forget that.

Originally posted by Sarge
The magikoopa segments are hard, and I actually expected people to not like that section as it actually involved waiting.

Then, are you trying to do well in this contest, or advertise your level design style? Surely someone interested in winning would take care to craft obstacles that people do enjoy...?

Originally posted by Sarge
Nine times out of ten there is some form of visual hint (such as curtains being cut out to show a thwomp is behind them, or a football being kicked to make the player quickly locate the source).

Again, how are players supposed to pick up on these hints when they also have to deal with everything else going on in the level? When you yourself test it, there's no way around the fact that you already know their locations, obscured or not. New players don't have that luxury, and have to take in everything at once. Something to keep in mind.


Originally posted by Sarge
Everything else should be noticeable and able to be handled by any player, unless they have some problem seeing, or they're too worried about everything else going on.

And this here is the crux of the matter. Wouldn't you agree that being worried about everything else is going to be an overwhelmingly common phenomenon among new players, because as I've said, they have to take in everything at once? Moreover, doesn't that imply that "everything else" is actually NOT feasible?

There's another factor you're not considering: framerate. Did you not notice how the framerate varies in your level depending on the sprite density? How are players supposed to make precise maneuvers when the very speed at which the game runs is not fixed? Are deaths due to this variance really "user error," or are they simply unfair deaths?

Originally posted by Sarge
Well maybe I wanted to make it that way?

Again, are you trying to do well in this contest, or advertise your level design style? You do realize the feedback you're getting is targeting the former...?

Originally posted by Sarge
Level design is not an absolute science as it relies on the opinions of others, not facts.

Originally posted by Sarge
User error is an excuse, otherwise we will reach this point:

Are you aware of the term "false dichotomy?"

You appear quite enamored with this idea of "user error," which seems to boil down to "players just aren't paying attention." However, as I've pointed out several times already, the level demands that players' attention be in too many places at the same time. Do you really think new players aren't paying attention in your stage? I mean, there's an awful lot to pay attention to! And that's exactly the problem- the level exploits this to overwhelm, trick, and punish players repeatedly. When first-time skiers are unwittingly cajoled into attempting a black diamond trail, can their repeated blunders really be blamed on "not paying enough attention?"

Originally posted by Sarge
Also, in my honest opinion, if a judge's judgement is affected by emotions to the point where he or she has to bash areas where they are clearly at fault, then that doesn't make a good judge.

So now you're stooping so low as to question our competence? Let me tell you something: perfect objectivity is a childish pursuit. The very reason we have multiple judges is to account for multiple viewpoints and interest curves. If your level comes under fire despite all that, then I think it's more likely that the designer is at fault. This contest doesn't reward levels that target niche audiences. Of course, that brings us back to the same question: are you here to do well in the contest, or to hawk your level design style? Frankly, if it's not the former, I think you're completely wasting your time, not to mention missing the point. Contests are avenues for growth- take a step back and think long and hard about that.



Apologies for the long post.
Alright super duper long post time GO:
Originally posted by MrDeePay
Holy hell, this is hopeless. You seem to have this jaded take on difficulty that is blinding you to what is right there to your face. The amount of precision necessary to make it past that setup at the start, especially as Big Mario without taking any damage, is just stupid.


Well that still gives no one an excuse to claim that the second thwomp is invisible. I'm arguing with this because you are claiming that obstacles in plain sight, such as the second thwomp, are invisible and unfair. I'd be less defensive if it was something say, the third or fourth thwomp, but nope. You chose the second which is hiding behind a see-through fence.

Originally posted by MrDeePay
It's nice to beat things into skulls once in a while.


Wonderful.

Originally posted by TRS
This is just overkill here, made even worse by the obscuring tarp-thing. Shown here: Mario is obscured behind the tarp-thing, and I have no idea where he's going to land. I then landed on a saw and died.

Also, considering the last section, there's no way in hell I'm going after that thing I think may be a yoshi coin.


Honestly, that part isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. You have to remember yoshi coins are extra, and it's not as if the tarp is hiding spikes behind it. If you have a good feel of your location (which you should, but Iunno), then you should be able to spin jump to victory.

Originally posted by TRS
Most of the post

This is something I can get behind for the most part, although the waiting area and the obscured thwomp could be counted as null and void, since it is actually required that you land on the platform next to him, and unless you're trying to do some masochistic no tool tas sorta of playthrough, it should fall into a more noticeable area before you get under it.

Originally posted by Forty2
I'm not saying anything about your level (I haven't played any of the levels, and I don't plan to), but here's a tip: if you want to avoid making bright, distracting colours, try desaturating them instead of plain darkening them. For example, take #00FF00. If I darken it to #004000, well, that's not exactly easy to look at, especially against a black background. Instead, try slightly desaturating the colour as well as darkening, to #337733, or something like that. The way you've done it, judging by TRS's screenshots, is actually, to be honest, quite painful to look at, mainly in the cases of the deep bleeding red, darkly ominous purple and soul-consuming blue. Again, desaturation looks nicer. And even then, I don't think anybody has any qualms with a bright rainbow, do they?


I've already admitted to my bad judgement about the colors. I was saying this because, at the time, I thought it would, but I didn't take the dark colors into account.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
Then, do you want feedback so you can improve your level, or so you can argue?


I want feedback, but the thing is I can't really accept it without a fight, since again, I prefer difficult levels, but not unfair (which I seemed to have messed up at trying to do).

Originally posted by Axemjinx
How exactly are players supposed to pick up on such a subtle nuance while at the same time grappling with the high difficulty?


Well, from what I remember, the only instance of a spike being behind a drape falls under the chuck section. There is a spike jutting out to the side of the other two. Since hopefully a player's eyes take heed to hazards such as that, I would assume that they would question why something was flashing next to it, which they would deduce by the point to be a spike.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
The entire turn block formation is obfuscated by a fence, and there are three grinders buzzing around as well. Again, how are players supposed to identify the danger while at the same time focusing on the grinder brigade (and the magikoopa, if it's still active)?


Well, let's look at it like this: A new player attempts to get all the yoshi coins on his or her first playthrough. They arrive atop the second bowser statue and see the challenge presented to them. They also notice a yoshi coin beneath a set of turnblocks. Now wouldn't you believe if they were going for the yoshi coins, that they would attempt to assess the situation? That, instead of charging in with guns a blazing (especially if you were to consider the level beforehand), that they would actually try and think of a solution?

Originally posted by Axemjinx
Their visibility doesn't tell the whole story. That setup in particular comes right after a harrowing sequence of precision jumps, and players are led into a false sense of security that nearly guarantees they get hit at that precise spot. Why do you think the point has come up so many times? The level conditions players to fail. It's not like the concept of hidden thwomps is properly introduced, either- there's only one other before this setup, and that one is quickly forgotten amid all the other demanding setups the level throws at players.


By chance did I mean to say the fifth screenshot? If my comment was referring to the post I believe it did, then I suppose I miscounted.

Anyway I've come to accept that that style of hidden thwomps could have been executed a bit better on my part.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
While I agree there is more than one way to pass some of the obstacles in the level, pretty much all of these ways require a very high level of precision, so in actuality, all you've managed to do is provide multiple ultra-specific ways to do things, which again, isn't much better.

I suppose I can't argue with that.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
Then, are you trying to do well in this contest, or advertise your level design style? Surely someone interested in winning would take care to craft obstacles that people do enjoy...?


Actually, neither of those are the final reason. The level began as an attempt at two things: To evaluate my level design, and to attempt at winning. As the month moved on, a few real life problems arose, taking away a lot of my time to actually work on it, leaving the latter half a lot less polished (hints the problem with the yoshi coin). Near the end, I really just said screw it (hinting to the boss being easier than the level, or in this case, the level being harder than the boss). Hey, first world problems, but eh.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
Again, are you trying to do well in this contest, or advertise your level design style? You do realize the feedback you're getting is targeting the former...?


Well that shouldn't really apply to the context it was used in. I stated that because the statement I was replying was saying I shouldn't have made the level following that gimmick, which I still believe it could've been pulled off if I had used the bright palettes instead of thinking that they would cause seizures.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
Are you aware of the term "false dichotomy?"

You appear quite enamored with this idea of "user error," which seems to boil down to "players just aren't paying attention." However, as I've pointed out several times already, the level demands that players' attention be in too many places at the same time. Do you really think new players aren't paying attention in your stage? I mean, there's an awful lot to pay attention to! And that's exactly the problem- the level exploits this to overwhelm, trick, and punish players repeatedly. When first-time skiers are unwittingly cajoled into attempting a black diamond trail, can their repeated blunders really be blamed on "not paying enough attention?"


Not all of my faults I am blaming on user error, it's just the one's presented to me as of late I am blaming on user error, such as not noticing the second thwomp, or the second yoshi coin.

Originally posted by Axemjinx
So now you're stooping so low as to question our competence? Let me tell you something: perfect objectivity is a childish pursuit. The very reason we have multiple judges is to account for multiple viewpoints and interest curves. If your level comes under fire despite all that, then I think it's more likely that the designer is at fault. This contest doesn't reward levels that target niche audiences. Of course, that brings us back to the same question: are you here to do well in the contest, or to hawk your level design style? Frankly, if it's not the former, I think you're completely wasting your time, not to mention missing the point. Contests are avenues for growth- take a step back and think long and hard about that.


I said this because I feel as if a judge who implies their judgement is swayed by frustration (as the target did, or so it feels as if to me) that doesn't make a good judge. Granted, I may have misinterpreted the statement, and if I did I apologize, but if I didn't, then my point still stands.

Also, when I entered it into the contest, I thought the magikoopa section wouldn't be that big of a deal. Perhaps worth docking like half a point in some category at max (of course, this is not insinuating I scored high or anything, because that's obviously not the case), and I also thought the concept of distracting the player with numerous obstacles was a more tolerable idea, but I guess I thought wrong.
Originally posted by Sarge
Honestly, that part isn't as bad as people are making it out to be. You have to remember yoshi coins are extra, and it's not as if the tarp is hiding spikes behind it. If you have a good feel of your location (which you should, but Iunno), then you should be able to spin jump to victory.


I most definitely did not have a good feel of the area at the time because I was trying to juggle 2 line-guided saws, 1 ground saw, a magikoopa shooting projectiles spawning in a random place every few seconds, and a bullet bill shooter. All while roughly half of the spinjump-able space is obscured.

There are spikes three tiles over the question blocks, so even if I did have an idea of where I was, the obscuring tarp-thing was preventing me from making the precision jump required to make it through there. So pretty much I had to go under the question blocks, in the path of the line guided saws. This required a good amount of timing and precision, and the tarp-thing being directly above the line-guided saws seems to me made that much harder.

All of the information obtained in that last paragraph was obtained over a 5-life period.


Originally posted by Sarge
[A]lthough the waiting area and the obscured thwomp could be counted as null and void, since it is actually required that you land on the platform next to him, and unless you're trying to do some masochistic no tool tas sorta of playthrough, it should fall into a more noticeable area before you get under it.


I'm going to assume you're talking about this picture and agree that that's my personal preference in this case.

However, IIRC, this is a common preference in the SMWC community. One of the most common criticisms I've heard is over unnecessary waiting. That's why I put a multi-coin block at the beginning of the autoscroll section in my entry.


Originally posted by Sarge
I said this because I feel as if a judge who implies their judgement is swayed by frustration (as the target did, or so it feels as if to me) that doesn't make a good judge. Granted, I may have misinterpreted the statement, and if I did I apologize, but if I didn't, then my point still stands.


But frustration is a legitimate concern the judges would have with a level. Are you saying that the judges should ignore their frustration when dealing with a level?
Last edited on 2012-03-09 04:58:13 AM by TRS.
mmmmmh...

The more I read the posts of certain people in this thread, the more I agree with some of Xkeeper's claims - namely, the "holy shit people need to learn to take feedback" one (re: if you're reading this, not everyone is like this, but the ones that are really like to make it known).

Top responses so far:

"That part is not as bad as you people are making it out to be" - yeah, if everyone says it's bad, then it's probably bad. Spoiler: not everyone here likes playing hacks which make you rip your teeth out.

"if a judge's judgement is affected by emotions to the point where he or she has to bash areas where they are clearly at fault, then that doesn't make a good judge." - This one's pretty rich, especially since the judges are people who have been on the SMW scene for years and years, and have all made extremely good levels, not to mention they KNOW the elements of good design. Yes, I know who they all are, and yes, I have the utmost respect and faith for them.

Sarge, one of the few levels I watched Xkeeper play was yours, and I immediately tried it myself after watching him drudge through it. It was a terrible level. I'm probably already echoing a lot of stuff that was said, but I figured I'd dump an unbiased response on your level here, speaking as someone who is not judging this. "user error" and "well, it was easy when I did it" are bad excuses. I don't need to repeat the issues in full detail that others have pointed out, but let it be known that I agree with all of them - desaturation of colors, canvasses hiding enemies (coupled with the status bar - it would be less annoying if they were only partially obscured by the canvasses). Mix that in with some insanely TIGHT jumps and a stupid Magikoopa section and boom.

Like, nobody is telling you HOW to design your levels. The point of ROM hacking is to make whatever you want, so if you think that level was great, by all means pump out 90 of them and release a hack for your friends to play. In general though, levels will always be about ten times easier for you to play through because you know the patterns/layouts. You need to put more thought into how OTHERS will perceive your level, and structure your level like that .. or choose friends who won't savescrum through your level and then say "WOW THAT WAS GREAT".

This has been a friendly piece of advice, without having read (too many) other opinions to influence mine. Have a nice day!
Last edited on 2012-03-09 08:23:57 AM by S.N.N..
Itd good to know the opinions on a level, but what about the rest?!?!If you hate that level so much, ignore it or move on.
Originally posted by Sarge
I prefer difficult levels, but not unfair

But see, here's the thing: "difficult but not unfair" differs from person to person.

You might not know, but I myself was actually the very first person to submit a level to this contest series, way back in 2008. I submitted this stage. While it scored relatively well overall, it was penalized for having very high difficulty. Did I let that get to me? Not at all. The level fit my personal definition of "difficult but fair" at the time, so I made others like it and eventually ended up releasing RttC (mind you, I've since stated many times that I want to go back and improve on my design, as I've learned much since then). However, the feedback I got did teach me that if I wanted my levels to appeal to a wider audience and so have a better shot of winning contests, I would have to cut down on the difficulty somewhat.

I think Kaleidoscope Castle is in a similar situation. If it's the kind of level you like making, then knock yourself out making as many as you want. However, keep in mind that for a level to do well in this contest, it has to (among other things) appeal to a reasonably wide audience, and not just fit your own personal definition of good design.


Another thing you have to realize is that if players aren't going through the stage the way you expect them to, it's quite possible your design is not guiding them in the right direction. At least in this contest, a good level should accommodate multiple playstyles. In many of your comments, you're making assumptions about how people go through the level that, based on many of the replies in this thread, are simply incorrect. For example, in one comment you're imagining that players stop to "assess the situation," but did people in this thread really do such a thing? If not, shouldn't your level be designed in such a way that they do stop to assess the situation? If players aren't acting the way you want them to, it's not necessarily that they've failed to pay attention; it's also quite possible that the level design fails to influence players' behavior properly.


Originally posted by Sarge
I said this because I feel as if a judge who implies their judgement is swayed by frustration (as the target did, or so it feels as if to me) that doesn't make a good judge.

Frustration is a sign that the level doesn't accommodate the player's interest curve, and should definitely be taken into consideration. If we didn't consider frustration, there would be no ceiling on difficulty, which is counter-intuitive because, beyond a certain point, increasing the difficulty will make the level less fun for a disproportionately greater number of people. Looking at things from another angle, if boredom wasn't considered, there would be no floor on lack of content, and holding a one-screen plays-by-itself-in-one-second level to some arbitrary standard of perfect objectivity sounds just as counter-intuitive to me. I'll say it again: all else equal, this contest favors balanced, holistic levels that appeal to a reasonably large audience and accommodate multiple playstyles. Judges that rank the entries with such a holistic viewpoint (as the judges for this contest are in fact doing) are doing their jobs properly.

Also, I wouldn't work with the other judges in this contest if I didn't think they'd do good work, so if you question their competence you question mine as well. Think about that.



Anyway, in the spirit of xlk's post, why don't we move on to other levels? I'm curious to hear people's opinions on Awesome Vanilla (SilverSwallow) and Shrums (TRS), since they stay very close to the style of the original game. I'm also curious to hear how Weird Wreckage (Lunatic Wolf), Beach Cavern (MarioFan22), and Let's a Go! (Lui37) compare with one another, since all three take players into an island cavern of some sort. Those are only suggestions, of course- I'm just a little tired of seeing us getting stuck on one level at a time because the feedback/back-and-forth becomes so drawn-out.
Axem, this is the first time you got me to read one of your posts. This subject actually caught my interest. But wow man, you can write a lot.

Anyway, I wonder how my level was to others - it's been my first time working with LM in ~7 months orso, so I'm very exited.
You'd find im still looking for feedback on my level entry. Not a word has been said about it, other then my tester.
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Forum Index - Archive - Old Contests & Events - (Discussion) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition

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