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| I want to improve my italian basics a lot... |
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Forum Index - Serious Business - Talk - I want to improve my italian basics a lot... |
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| Posted on 2012-03-08 09:59:35 AM |
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Yeah I'm asking here, because I'm pretty sure here's atleast someone who can provide me with stuff I've to learn to get a feeling for the italian language like I got for english, because honestly, I don't have it, downgrading my marks pretty bad...
That means I have italian in school, too. But my teacher progesses to fast, so that I can't learn what she teaches, resulting in a stupid situation in school.
Furthermore, In exactly... 4 days and 5 weeks I'm going to write an exam (or however you call that in English, I think you can't compare it to something else, since it isn't a class test so to speak) in this subject, and I really want to improve my italian "basics" a lot...(yes I know, thread title)
Any suggestions? Right now I'm learning vocabulary, but this doesn't help much if I even can't get simple sentences correctly. The book sucks, too. In fact, there so much mistakes in it it's not funny.
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| Posted on 2012-03-08 10:51:38 AM |
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Note that I don't speak Italian at all so this is more a general advice (or rather obvious hint).
I'd google for websites teaching italian grammar basics and plow through them while learning vocabulary by the way. The grammar courses most likely will have lots of examples so you can learn the vocabulary with context and catch up on a lot of new words as well.
Once you have at least a little bit of knowledge (which I suppose you do), start reading italian websites and look up new grammar and words as they come. Basically google anything that is foreign to you.
And if there are any questions that remain unanswered, bug some of the italian users on here (I'm sure dinomar for instance wouldn't mind helping you).
I guess this won't be as helpful as I'd like it to but there's really nothing else I could add.
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| Posted on 2012-03-08 12:00:32 PM |
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Originally posted by WeeabuuNote that I don't speak Italian at all so this is more a general advice (or rather obvious hint).
I'd google for websites teaching italian grammar basics and plow through them while learning vocabulary by the way. The grammar courses most likely will have lots of examples so you can learn the vocabulary with context and catch up on a lot of new words as well.
Yeah that's pretty much sums up what I usually do than I "try" to learn for italian, but unfortunately, the fast learning progression in the school makes it pretty hard, atleast for me, to remember the stuff we learn, especially because we learn every new lesson something new...
Well I guess I should learn than simple sentences by heart. There's no way I could learn so much in so short time I think...
Or I cheat during the exam, but that doesn't help me learning the language *sigh*
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| Posted on 2012-03-08 01:06:25 PM |
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Maybe I can help you if you want, just ask your questons!
I also know a little bit of basic german (assuming german is actually your first language), so I can try giving some tips, while with your language in mind.
Anyway, is this the first year you're taking italian classes?
What do you already know? (like cardinal numbers, salutations, defined/undefined articles, singular/plural nouns, indicative tenses of regular verbs, et cetera ...)
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| Posted on 2012-03-08 01:25:01 PM |
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I learned English very well frequenting the site...
You can learn Italian logging in in an Italian site.
I made like this...thanks to this site (english site) I have 7 in English and maybe 8 in the end of the school...
It's just a tip, I don't know...
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| Posted on 2012-03-08 01:29:30 PM |
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Originally posted by Lui37Maybe I can help you if you want, just ask your questons!
I also know a little bit of basic german (assuming german is actually your first language), so I can try giving some tips, while with your language in mind.
Anyway, is this the first year you're taking italian classes?
What do you already know? (like cardinal numbers, salutations, defined/undefined articles, singular/plural nouns, indicative tenses of regular verbs, et cetera ...)
uno due tre quattro cinque sei sette otto nove dieci...
un ragazzo, una ragazza,
la camera, le camere as a example for plural
That's what I know, unfortunately, I can't make even simple sentences, because I miss connection words, or forget their meaning OR don't know how to use them ("che" comes in mind, perchè, qual è)
It's annoying, really. It doesn't matter how much grammatical stuff I learn, if I don't know how to write even simple sentences, it doesn't help.
@Silver. Nope.avi. I can't listen to either italian speaking (as an example for videos if someone suggests that), because they speak to fast, or they use internet slang which I unfortunately can't understand (yet).
I guess the main problem, so to say, is making sentences. If I master them for basic and some comlexing stuff, I could atleast try understanding future and stuff like that...
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 06:57:09 AM |
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We cannot help you if you don't give us indications. Mostly because italian is a very hard language to learn.
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 07:27:54 AM |
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It's a ridiculously hard language to learn. Italian has more rules than English and Japanese put together.
3 years of learning it in high school and I still can't put together a proper sentence.
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 08:31:07 AM |
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Originally posted by Blumiere3 years of learning it in high school and I still can't put together a proper sentence.
That sounds like more of a problem with the way it's being taught more than anything. It took us six years of French (in school) before we were able to at least hold a conversation, whereas I knew people who learned the language in a few months on their own. I recognize Italian is one of the nastier languages to learn, but it would definitely be a lot more smooth if you did it at your own place outside of a classroom.
...which is where I'd recommend Rosetta Stone (Google it) for getting most of the basics learned. It's a very comprehensive program and is particularly useful in teaching you the necessary grammar (at least) of several different languages. It's also pretty expensive, but you can probably find downloads/torrents of it if you look hard enough.
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| Last edited on 2012-03-09 08:31:40 AM by S.N.N.. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 08:52:11 AM |
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Today for example, we learned again something new, it's really ridiculous... the new topic is when do you use "fare fare qc a qn" or "lasciare fare qc a qn", seriously, 80% in the class haven't understood what we had to translate from German->Italian, god damn
Sometimes I really think it is the teacher's fault. I mean, my english teacher is strange, too, thanks god I had a decent teacher in the school before.
Originally posted by Dinomar is italian and you didn't recognize it? God damn!We cannot help you if you don't give us indications. Mostly because italian is a very hard language to learn.
Originally posted by ShogI guess the main problem, so to say, is making sentences. If I master them for basic and some comlexing stuff, I could atleast try understanding future and stuff like that...
I have no idea how to make my problem clearer, I'm sorry. Well I try it anyway:
It's just... we're learning the wrong vocabulary and to much of them. I don't know what "but", "so" "after that" "in conclusion" "because" "against" means and how to use them, I have no basics, but something like "piovere", uhm "spiaggiare" or something stupid, which doesn't really help for building sentences is of course high priority *sigh*
Edit:
I don't think that italian in it's core it ridiculous, I think with a strong basis in one tense (Present), it is possible. Like I learned English in school. And now I can read and write it well, because with the basic english I've learned I tried to understand new vocabulary in the context. With my italian knowledge now, impossible...
@SNN: I like to learn with books, the computer is really distracting sometimes, EXCEPT I try to learn from real italian people or something. But thanks nontheless.
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| Last edited on 2012-03-09 08:55:16 AM by Shog. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 09:12:38 AM |
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If you want to talk about teachers... well, don't say me that: i all english teachers i had didn't even know some common slangs: their english is just traditionalist.
The main problem is that i am not an italian teacher, though, so, it's pretty difficult to teach those things. I think you should read, read, speak and speak. I always thought that school language teaching is somewhat of fail: indeed, while i didin't know a duck about english at 14: "thanks" to this site, now, i understand english much more and i don't even need to translate texts because i understand it well, even if i'm still a noob on it. Now i just need to learn pronunciations and spaking it, since i'm still in trouble about it.
I cannot help you that much, since you lack of basics, apparently. You don't learn how to make a sentence in one day (at least it is what i think).
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 09:21:12 AM |
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Originally posted by Dinomar
I cannot help you that much, since you lack of basics, apparently. You don't learn how to make a sentence in one day (at least it is what i think).
Sigh then I simply try to learn by myself...stupid teacher...because honestly, while writing this, I want to show my Italian skills I've learned so far, but oh well i can't
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 09:37:07 AM |
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Originally posted by ShogOriginally posted by Dinomar
I cannot help you that much, since you lack of basics, apparently. You don't learn how to make a sentence in one day (at least it is what i think).
Sigh then I simply try to learn by myself...stupid teacher...because honestly, while writing this, I want to show my Italian skills I've learned so far, but oh well i can't
I did not say i don't want to help you, i said it's difficult to give you some tip if we don't even know where to start with.
For example, if you want something, i'll say you how to to say in italian "i want to do x" or "he want's to do y".
Io faccio questo.
Stands for:
I do this.
Wait... why not "Io fare questo"? Why not "fare" isntead o "faccio"?Well, this is why italian uses a lot of variation in verbs, and it's not limited to the "do" verb (or does, if third person). This is an example of italian verb table:
See? "Have" has a lot of variations, in italian. And it's pretty complicated, i realize.
So, the present of the verb "do" would be like this:
English:
-I do
-You do
-He does
-We do
-You do
-They do
Italian:
-Io faccio
-Tu fai
-egli(lui,lei) fa
-noi facciamo
-voi fate
-essi(loro)fanno
See? I also want to say you what do "Io, Lui, Noi" mean, so i'll be more specific:
Io = I
Tu = You
Lui/Lei = He/She/It
Noi = We
Voi = You (Same as "Tu", keep it in mind)
Loro = They
Afaik, i would translate "Egli" as "It" and "Essi" as "They".
Those are just some infos: hope they help you a little: even if i'm not sure, i think the pronouns (pronomi) are the main things to learn, as in any language. I also would follow SNN's advice: you alone cannot learn italian properly (especially if your teacher is really incompetent as you said).
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| Last edited on 2012-03-09 09:48:03 AM by Alessio. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 01:52:10 PM |
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Yeah this is "pretty basic", we only didn't learn some tenses yet.
andare:
vado vai va andiamo andate vanno
etc.
That's not the problem, it's just, I can't make frickin sentences. I try to write something, which results in "Mi piace italiano perchè faccio scrivere una lettera in italiano".
Let's say the sentence is an example, my problem is I'm never, never, never, never sure if the sentence makes sense, and that I don't have proper vocabulary. I mean seriously, isn't there anywhere a vocabulary list which has every important connection/for pretty much every sentence" words like "con" or similar? That would help a lot
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 02:30:02 PM |
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Originally posted by ShogYeah this is "pretty basic", we only didn't learn some tenses yet.
andare:
vado vai va andiamo andate vanno
etc.
That's not the problem, it's just, I can't make frickin sentences. I try to write something, which results in "Mi piace italiano perchè faccio scrivere una lettera in italiano".
Let's say the sentence is an example, my problem is I'm never, never, never, never sure if the sentence makes sense, and that I don't have proper vocabulary. I mean seriously, isn't there anywhere a vocabulary list which has every important connection/for pretty much every sentence" words like "con" or similar? That would help a lot
I don't know if a dictionary that explains you how to make proprer sentences does exist in Germany: i have a dictionary that explains doubts and mistakes in the italian language, but that's entirely in italian. also, i think "Mi piace italiano perchè faccio scrivere una lettera in italiano" is a very good long step to learn Italian. Since when you started to study it?
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 03:55:12 PM |
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Originally posted by Dinomar
I don't know if a dictionary that explains you how to make proprer sentences does exist in Germany: i have a dictionary that explains doubts and mistakes in the italian language, but that's entirely in italian
Would you mind telling me the name from it? Maybe it's really well known and could be used anywhere on the world as a dictionary, translated to several languages  like I said, this would be my key to success ;)
Originally posted by Dinomaralso, i think "Mi piace italiano perchè faccio scrivere una lettera in italiano" is a very good long step to learn Italian. Since when you started to study it?
1 year and ~4 months? Considering how long I'm learning, I'm dissapointed by myself, however...
Originally posted by Blumiere
3 years of learning it in high school and I still can't put together a proper sentence.
this gave me hope ;)
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 04:06:37 PM |
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The book should be called "Dizionario degli errori e dei dubbi sulla lingua italiana" (Dictionary of errors and doubts about italian language) by Barbara Colonna, but watch out: it's entirely in italian (just because it's mostly for italians).
I'm sorry but i don't think it was what you was looking for.
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 04:48:46 PM |
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Originally posted by S.N.N.
...which is where I'd recommend Rosetta Stone (Google it) for getting most of the basics learned.
I wouldn't. Never trust anyone who refuses to allow public libraries to have copies of their program.
A better choice, I think might be Assimil. Not only can I personally vouch for its effectiveness as a method, you can get their courses with German as the base language. It's especially suitable for "false beginners", as it were, and can bring one up to something approaching a very basic conversational level--with a more advanced course to follow, in many cases. And they do allow libraries to loan out copies of their programs.
In any case, it's worth noting that for the most part, you will simply not be able to learn a language to a competent level in school--it just doesn't work for the vast majority of people. The only effective way to learn a language to fluency (aside from moving to a country which speaks it, but we'll assume that's not an option) is to study it on your own. A lot of people find this prospect overwhelming, but it's really not--if anything, studying on your own takes off quite a lot of pressure, as you don't have to worry about things like marks and exams, and post importantly, you can determine your own pace. Need to spend more time on a certain topic? Do it. Don't need to wallow endlessly in a topic you already thoroughly understand? Just move on. Of course you need to have enough discipline to keep at it regularly (ideally do at least a little study every day), but if you do, you'll be outright amazed how fast you make progress. It's quite distressing how often one hears stories along the lines of "I took such and such for eight years and can't even hold a simple conversation", but I promise you, if you find a good self-study course (or better yet, a number of self courses) and regularly keep up your studies, I have little doubt that you, as a German speaker, should easily be able to have intelligent conversations on things like social issues and current events in Italian within, say, a year and a half at most. No exaggeration.
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| Posted on 2012-03-09 05:14:09 PM |
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Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
A better choice, I think might be Assimil.
I think it's pretty interesting that isn't that expensive for looking so promising (especially considering your style of writing and that you make a recommendation about it). I am going to check if my "main" library has it tomorrow.
Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
"The other stuff"
I agree wholeheartedly, but you can imagine that studying other subjects now especially considering that I've problems with certain subjects (mainly, history and philo...don't know the english term  )
now, I consider it low priority right now learning it, only to answer your advise "learning everyday something".
Furthermore, I think that you, Rameau, hopefully agree with me that a teaching system, which contains every new lesson something new for the pupils can't be effective
(as an example, new tenses[!] as something, what I personally consider pretty hardcore, because it's not only the form you use, there special conditions like how in English you can't use "must" in a past tense and use "had to" instead)
@Dinomar, Yeah you're right, it wasn't what I was expecting, however, it's interesting that I understood the title without your translation X)
So to sum it up, thanks everyone, I am going to have a hard time learning everything, but it's only the result that counts.insulting everybody in italian 
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| Posted on 2012-03-10 06:21:14 AM |
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Generally what I personally do when learning a language is to do each lesson twice--once to initially familiarize myself with the concepts, and then again the next day (or after a similar pause to absorb things) to try to make sure I've properly understood everything. Not only is this a good way to reinforce what you've learned, but there's also something very encouraging about going through a lesson which gave you so much trouble the first time round and discovering it now seems much, much easier (and they almost always do seem easier the second time you attempt them). And of course it helps not to have someone metaphorically staring over your shoulder judging whether you get the answer to a particular exercise right or wrong, as though you were competing in some sort of contest rather than simply trying to learn something. That sort of pressure doesn't help anything.
What I think makes Assimil in particular effective, though, is while it does introduce new things in each lesson (but not so many as to be overwhelming--all of the lessons are quite short), it doesn't expect you to remember everything the first time. In fact, the entire first half of the course is to a large degree (though obviously not 100%) passive. The idea is that you first need to hear the language in its various forms, and develop an intuitive feel for its structures before you start trying to logically analyze them. And that, I think, is a good approach. Your average learner isn't going to get very far with just vocabulary lists and conjugation charts, and very little in the way of practical examples to link them to. While it's important to have some theoretical knowledge of the rules, what we really work from when we speak or write is just a general feeling for what looks or sounds right--and you don't get that from lists and charts, but only from seeing and hearing the language over and over, in ways that emphasize its differing structures. And that's what a good course seeks to provide--and what, unfortunately, far, far too many others neglect.
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