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| Anime industry is a horrible world... |
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Forum Index - Serious Business - Talk - Anime industry is a horrible world... |
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| Posted on 2012-03-26 06:37:16 PM |
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...and not because they are anime, because of obsessive weeaboos and because of their ridicolously high popularity!!!
So, reading the title, you'd expect "oh trash this" or "oh my another Anti MLP rant", but i don't want to talk about anime in general (do it here), but of animation as job, MY future job! I'm not also talking bad about Anime, but about its industry. And so let's explaining.
Some months ago (back on October) i made a workshop about Japanese Animation (indeed about Anime), with a real Japanese animator (he's also a teacher, and he even was the animation director of this anime, if i remember correctly. He even animated Doraemon and Naruto). I decided to do this because i was interested for real. Indeed, if this may make you envious of me, i made some exercises about Anime and now i also have some photocopies of original concept art =P
But i'll keep things like images of those concepts or the animator's name for myself. Privacy and copyright matter. Japanese industries don't allow pencil tests (a test of animating process: this is a pencil test) on Youtube (indeed if you look for "Anime Pencil Test", you'll find Fan-Crap, with a rare non-fan exception), they are very strict on this. But not sure.
And so is this: i made this 3 days workshop and, even if i didn't do that much (because of the few people which were not animators, unfortunately), it was a really interesting experience that made me get near to anime. I think that, in some future, i may accpet some offers for Anime, from Japan: they send me the material, i do the material, and i send the worked material back. That must not be easy, though, since material risks to not be recieved. I know this because i asked this animator, in the conference/inaguration of the new Comics seat, how i do anime if i'm not japanese (everyone complimented with me because it was an interesting question, the only one of the the conference) That would be awesome anyway, because i would find this a very interesting experience, rather than Italy, that makes horrible animation in the present. And animators are overworked and underpaid in Italy, and i'm really upset of this. I don't want to become a slave... So go to Japan??? mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...?
And so, here we get to the "Anime industry sucks" topic! Since Anime seems to be a really good example here and that Japan is awesome because of it, now i'm going to open your eyes: Behind Anime there is a very horrible world, something that, i have no doubts about it, may fall on the fucking worldwide financial crisis topic. When you watch Anime, you see they are so detailed, well colored, sometimes very smooth: you'd think, don't those animators go insane by drawing all those stuff??? Well, they REALLY go insane!!! Why do they? Since Japan is really prosperous, highly civilized and, despite the evolution of animation, they still do 2D animaion, it should be a beautiful world where to live in... Nothing of more wrong!
(Of course, i think life in Japan is better than Italy, hence our beloved Mario Monti. No it's not a Super Mario and it's even far from being Super)
Japan itself is messed up a bit, as far as we know, because of that earthquake and Tsunami, plus that terrible nuclear disaster, so, it needs to solve it's problem, and problems seem to get solved throughout time. But the Anime industry, i think, it's messed up completely!!! It may be very organized, but who feels better are only those moneyeaters enterpreuters: Animators, actually, are in an very horrible condition. And so i'm going to the so-waited point.
You'd expect animators get a very good salary... no! Their salary is very poor, and they are very underpaid! But they work 15 hours per day! My mom's work is less stressful, dick, She works 8 hours per day and has two free days. She earns 1300 per month! It's always few, since in Italy, life is very expansive, but animators are in a way worse conditions!
Japanese animators have a circa 300/400 of salary and they work from 10 to 15 hours per day... and even more! explain this, how the heck do you live with 300 per month??? it't like 3600 per year and it's very very few! As said, i and my family are very rich people compared to animators! And sometimes, some animators even had to leave their work and to go back to their family! Imagine if those people would have a family: they would be like immigrant that do an uncleared work! Well, i actually quote this from another article because i totally agree!
You know another great problem? With the ridicolously low salary, there is a ridicolously high amount of work, as mentioned before: they work like donkeys, like in an assembly line, closed in a small box called "room", doomed to draw countless frames of Anime for countless hours! This is not life, and it saddens me! Especially because i want to be an animator and i don't want to end like those people: i even hope for those people that they will get a better life very soon! See, a large group of japanese animator even founded an association against this terrible form of slavery! Here's the Wikipedia article. If people even found association against those stuff, their condition must be horrible! They, like me, really wish to do Anime, but not in the way industry wants.
You know something? In Italy, it works like in Japan, (if not a 1,5 times better): animators have an extremely poor salary in Italy too (it can be like 300/400) and there is no pastime. This is another reason i'm sad and frustrated.
And so, not in a very late future, i really would like to contact this japanese animator (the same who made me the workshop) again, if he's willing to stand to my questions (he doesn't know italian, he had a "traslator" person and i don't know if he knows english very well. Then, as said, i fear he's not willing, but he was also happy to visit Italy again for School of Comics, so, it may be a change.). I want to ask him some questions about this, but i'll keep those for myself: i'm not posting secrets and personal info. I'll post already existing info here.
I'm also going to post some articles, both uffical, and some random journals:
Anime Industry Turmoil;
So You Wanna be a Japanese animator;
Animator's salaries;
Forum thread: Extremely Low Salary of Japanese animators, just to read some opinions;
Japanese animators live in Hell;
Directors Dispute Reports of 'Poor' Animator Salaries: someone disagrees with JAniCA a little, but i do believe salaries are poor.
This is all, for now. Don't take this as a rant, please, because i tried to put content on this post without using CAPS LOCK for yelling for no reason.
I also want to mention Sonic: Why did its franchise go downhill? Why did we have craps like Sonic 2006? Why we had a Werehog here??? Well, i think i gave a valid reason. Sonic is not an anime (aside SonicX), but i think videogames industries may work like Anime ones.
Yes, it may be because Anime industry is going downhill, but this is very sad anyway.
Sigh, how unfair buisnessmen are... 
I really hope to get a good worksplace as animator. I don't want to end like a slave, i don't!
As for a final note: did i ever say SMWCentral is a frustrating element? I still apoligize! There is something of more terrible, MORE MORE terrible!!!
Edit: "...is A horrible...", not "...is AN..."
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| Last edited on 2012-03-26 06:38:38 PM by Alessio. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-26 07:16:10 PM |
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That's terrible. You think animators would make at least ten times that salary since the franchise wouldn't even exist without them. And considering how graphic some anime is, drawing those frames for 15 hours a day can chew your mind to pieces. Even worse is how 4Kids handled most of the anime they dubbed.
Still, I always liked the art and animation style of anime, but reading this is incredibly depressing, just because I feel terrible for those animators.
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| Posted on 2012-03-26 11:01:26 PM |
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Actually, what you just described is no different than most of big companies in the world. From what I've heard, in China employees only rest one half-a-Sunday every fifteen days for an even smaller salary; let's not forget that a lot of big companies like Nike have their products made by Chinese children; and dont get me into African countries. Basically, those Japanese animators are very lucky compared to all that.
I can see that as an animator, you get more involved in these kind of things, and you see stuff that other people don't see, which is good; however you must realize it goes way beyond that. I'm not trying to defend the anime industries, indeed what they are doing is wrong, but they are not the main problem; as I said, a lot of companies are similar or even worse. The main problem is that the economy follows a capitalist model where the bosses earn a lot of money and all the employees work like crazy for a very small salary.
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 12:31:34 AM |
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Such is what happens when you apply supply and demand to human beings.
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 01:55:09 AM |
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Some of those wages (less than 1 million JPY/year) described are horrendous, they get no benefits, and shouldn't be working that many hours in a small, inactive area. The sad part is, according to one of those articles, they aren't even protected by the labor laws because they aren't signed to the studios...
If I were in that position, I would take up a different job which better supports my needs, and continue animating at my own pace as a hobby, and one day promote and sell my doujin works online or at a festival.
It would help a lot more if anime fans boycott the ones who underpay their animators and demand better conditions for them. Buying corporate anime only promotes the status-quo, as it says the system works and may even worsen the problem if an increased demand is implied. Independent works should be bought, however, because it directly supports the people who work the hardest on them.
Thanks for the information, Dinomar. I wish you the best of luck in getting your animation seen and earning what's worth while.
Off-topic:
@aj6666: Yes, you're right that many Japanese animators are lucky that they can at least afford essentials on their own. I think the people of Asia as a whole need to band together and demand better labor laws and enforcement, because their corporations still treat them like disposable toys. This article is 4 years old but I believe it has relevance today.
As it stands, many of our corporations don't care about fair trade because stuff they get now costs less money and sells more consistently, but to boycott every guilty retail chain would be complete economic suicide on our end. The customer is "always right" though - enough people requesting ethically-sourced products will make them want to carry them, just like the recent high demands in certified organic foods made several supermarkets start carrying more. Research brands: request the brands that are ethical, and avoid buying the unethical ones because the ones that don't sell are the ones that will have reduced shelving space or be clearanced/deleted when new mod rolls around.
It will take an awful lot of people to make change happen. This may force some more notorious corporations to redo their business model to compete because their sweatshop appliances and apparel are no longer desired. Of course, your wallet will probably take a hit, but if you really care about the people making what you buy...
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 04:29:44 AM |
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@TomPhanto: yes, i believe.
Indeed i think it's ok to like anime in general, because i too am attracted by that style, but learning the conditions of japanese animators (almost pair to or worse than italian ones), makes me lose faith on my job! And even consider 4kids, another company full of hypocrisy and moralism.
@aj6666: yes, it's true that chinese companies can be even worse and that in Africa there is the maximum poverty you can ever imagine, but i even think that, in the while, we should support those poor people treated as slaves... we must support everyone. For example, for supporting african childs, there are plenty of association about donating money, but are they reliable? Also, Nike! I knew of Nike children and it's a terrible exploitation. China, from communism, became the most capitalistic country of the world! They export everywhere and this is because other countries's buisnessmen permit that! It may not be the main problem, but let's not treating them as minor problems: they are still horrible conditions and need to be fixed.
@Kaijyuu: Indeed i explained it throughtout the entire post.
@Counterfeit: A big problem of animation as job is indeed the lack of a real protection: you cannot even denounce those companies for not paying you at all. Sincerely, when people i know in Comics would tell me they wouldn't even be paid, i thought they were exaggerating, but it was the pure truth. They worked on an italian feature film production, and they got only 350 for so much work. And another one teacher didn't even finished working on it. And i doubt he will get paid very much. Also, did you know that animators, after an amazingly time of stressful work, they may even get hand problems (contusion, iirc) and forced to go to the hospital and stop working for a while??? And this? Does pass unnoticed? Where the fuck is sanitary protection??
You know? I don't want to make my own job as only a hobby: i just want, though, to find a good worksplace, where i work regularly and with a good salary! But in condition like this... it can become only a hobby, unfortunately. Who knows, even Pixel of Cave Story made his game as hobby and now i guess he's making money behind it! He was lucky, i think.
About boycotting, yes, i think all those "weeaboos" (and DeviantART anime loovers) that, if they really love, they should do something for boycotting anime industries, but i think that's pretty hard: those "weeaboos" are blind people, in most cases (not everyone, fortunately). Similar thing happened in the '60 era: in-beetweeners in Disney were very underpaid, they striked from work, boycotted the studios, and so the studio did need to raise their life conditions.
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 05:51:44 AM |
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Originally posted by Dinomarweeaboos
Every time you say this word just makes me want to see Buu post here even more.
As for the topic of the thread, I'm not really surprised to hear this, and fully agree with what aj6666 says. I know that since you're an animator you're a bit more sensitive towards other animators, there are definitely worse jobs to be in.
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 06:02:55 AM |
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Originally posted by Derpy BackslideOriginally posted by Dinomarweeaboos
Every time you say this word just makes me want to see Buu post here even more.
As for the topic of the thread, I'm not really surprised to hear this, and fully agree with what aj6666 says. I know that since you're an animator you're a bit more sensitive towards other animators, there are definitely worse jobs to be in.
here you go, happy now?!?!
@actual topic, I'm not surprised in the slightest. Life is just like that, sadly. Rich people stuffing their pockets with even more money while the hard-working people don't get any of that.
Then again this happens in a lot of places (as pointed out before), so it's not only the animation industry being corrupt. There's a lot of things wrong with society. :V
Though, with the prices they sell the DVDs/Blu-Rays for ($70 for two/three episodes, are you fucking kidding me?), I'm even less surprised. Like, apart from die-hard fans nobody actually bothers with those. Who would want to pay that much money for two eps when that person can get an entire season of *insert some show here* for less than half of that. I'm aware of the higher costs for Anime production (at least that's what I have heard) but this way they won't get anywhere.
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| Last edited on 2012-03-27 06:03:52 AM by Buu. |
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 01:27:46 PM |
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@Derpy:
It's true that there are worse jobs, but the job of animator is actually one of the worst jobs in the world, not counting the underdeveloped countries (Japan is more than overdeveloped indeed). I'm not surprised, i'm just horrified. It's one of the worst because the standard day of this life consists in:
-wake up, possibly at 07:00 AM and have breakfast;
-draw countless frames until lunch;
-have lunch;
-draw other countless frames until dinner;
-have dinner;
-draw other frames again until bed time, that can even go over 01:00 AM;
-bed time.
Everything only for a poor 300/400.
This is the day if things go bad: if you are lucky, you have some pastime, though. But this is actually a horrible life anyway. You wouldn't care there are worse jobs if you were in. It's like if you work as a bricklayer, under the heat of the sun and work for less than 1000.
Believe me, if there are worse jobs, it's a very horrible life.
Also, when i think to Weeaboo, i think to DeviantART and its ridicolously obsessive fans. I don't think to Weeabuu: for me he will always remain "BuuHuu". I thought Weeaboo, or Wapanese, was more appropriate.
@Weeabuu: I know it's not only for animation... should i mention Berlusconi and Monti again, like i did in the IRC? 
Indeed, even my mom doesn't even a high enough salary despite she works more than some people that get a higher level for nothing!
Note, i don't blame anime and Japan for that, i blame buisnessmen and enterpreuters in general: they are monsters. And if this crisis doesn't end, corrupts will always be around here in majority. Italian economy sucks because of tax evasion, and i bet Berlusconi didn't pay taxes for long! This is why we are so corrupt.
And high prices? That's the main reason there is piracy! Prices are too high! I am not for piracy, but with this situation, you cannot complain about piracy if ridicolously high prices permit that! I think this horrible situation is made worse by the worldwide crisis. And what sucks, we cannot do that much, we can only do manifestations, but if we do, even the fucking cops keep us from doing that!
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 01:50:37 PM |
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Originally posted by Weeabuuhere you go, happy now?!?!
<3
Originally posted by Dinomar
Indeed, even my mom doesn't even a high enough salary despite she works more than some people that get a higher level for nothing!
Note, i don't blame anime and Japan for that, i blame buisnessmen and enterpreuters in general: they are monsters.
This is pretty much what capitalism is: the big business people on top don't work as much (but they do have to run their business so they don't do zero work) and get incredibly high pay, and the hard-workers on the bottom with little pay. Sadly, it seems like it's going to be like this for a long time.
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| Posted on 2012-03-27 06:36:43 PM |
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Originally posted by CounterfeitOff-topic:
@aj6666: Yes, you're right that many Japanese animators are lucky that they can at least afford essentials on their own. I think the people of Asia as a whole need to band together and demand better labor laws and enforcement, because their corporations still treat them like disposable toys. This article is 4 years old but I believe it has relevance today.
As it stands, many of our corporations don't care about fair trade because stuff they get now costs less money and sells more consistently, but to boycott every guilty retail chain would be complete economic suicide on our end. The customer is "always right" though - enough people requesting ethically-sourced products will make them want to carry them, just like the recent high demands in certified organic foods made several supermarkets start carrying more. Research brands: request the brands that are ethical, and avoid buying the unethical ones because the ones that don't sell are the ones that will have reduced shelving space or be clearanced/deleted when new mod rolls around.
It will take an awful lot of people to make change happen. This may force some more notorious corporations to redo their business model to compete because their sweatshop appliances and apparel are no longer desired. Of course, your wallet will probably take a hit, but if you really care about the people making what you buy...
That's a good point you have there. Actually, I rarely ever buy stuff, most of the time, I follow the "buy only what you need" logic, which is pretty much reduced to food and clothes; I always keep the same cell phone, computer and things like that with me until they stop being functional. So yeah, I don't really buy much from those people, although the main reason why I do this is because I don't want to fall into consumism.
Going back on topic, I don't usually buy anime stuff and when I watch anime I do it online, I know this isn't exactly boycotting, but at least I'm not giving them my money. As I said before, the problem is the capitalistic system, I think everyone working on the production of the anime (including the directors) should be payed equally depending on the money earned by the show; unfortunately, this is easier said than done.
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| Posted on 2012-03-28 08:52:11 AM |
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Mangaka have it bad too. Eiichiro Oda (one piece) apparently works everyday and sleeps 4 hours per day. He has a lot of money though.
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| Posted on 2012-03-28 11:50:55 AM |
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Again, i realize that even this topic falls to the financial crisis and capitalism. Indeed this is capitalism. An Anime industry is the perfect definition of capitalism!
Indeef you may have already noticed that i am a communist, or, if not totally, i'm very near to it, to the left wing. I hate right wing because it aims for richness, capitalism, exploitation. While the left wing is more near to the peoples, to the communism, to the distribution of richness. Indeed the Communism is nothing but the abolition of the privatization of production mediums. This means that in a factory, even if there is a leader who organizes things in a company, this factory is held by people and not held of few enterpreuters. So richness, in this way, may be distribuited, so, there wouldn't be a rich people against a poor people. Many people confuse communism with something that means your mom can lead a massive enterprise: this is pure ignorance. And, also, Stalin wasn't a real communist, he was a tyrant. Since someone confuse communism with Stalin too. In this way, workers, in this case, animators, would have a much better life. Well, this is a total utopia, so, i just want something of more similar. People can be rich, but they cannot make others poor.
Also, once i have been abcused of thinking to "live in the '60 where there was the communist ideology"... by italians, to make thing worse.
Now, back to the main topic.
I had the intention of buying DVDs, because i don't like piracy, but, indeed, after learning these stuff, i decided i won't buy any! I still want to watch anime, though.
Why? I wouldn't watch anime because of that situation, but that would be disrespectful against animators who work hard, so, i'll watch them, without giving money. Well, the same ideology of aj6666.
Really, i don't want to make people richer, but if i don't, other people will, though. Even this saddens me.
@Ixtab: the fact that Eiichiro Oda has a lot of money explains the fact he lives well, even if he works hard. Yes, work hard, but get a good pay, don't be treated like a slave.
Also, i think this goes for Comic drawers as well. If they are not author, they won't get anything back at all.
Edit: I found the archive about Sonic Team: i can say without doubt they work in the same conditions of animators... all because of buisnessmen.
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| Last edited on 2012-03-29 04:38:08 AM by Alessio. |
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