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loopholes

When playing mario hacks, I've always thought that fake exits were very interesting and added some fun puzzles to levels. So when I started to make a hack, I decided to put them at the end of some levels. Then I read the tips on this site and found out that they're not allowed.

But then I thought of something, would if I made it into a well-designed level mechanic? So what I did was put a fake exit and, right before the exit, put a message block that says something along the lines of, "Be careful, going through the goal will cause mario to walk to his death, try to find a way to make the path safe." I don't find this unfair because the game literally tells the player that the exit is a trap.

I also did something similar with needing to use glitches to beat a level. I put message boxes that teach how to perform the glitches to newer players.

So I've been wondering if the moderators would find this as an interesting way to make bad game design a unique level mechanic, or if they would still find this to be poorly designed.
Yes, I know, I don't have an avatar, I can't find any damn pictures that are small enough >:(

(not exactly a loophole, so the title is a tad misleading)

It's hard to say. It could definitely all depend on the execution of the fake exit, and whether or not it comes right out of nowhere with no way to anticipate it.
No hack mod, but...

The goal trap isn't necessarily a trap if you state clearly to the player that they'll die if they try to get it normally. Having to find a way to make it passable sounds like an interesting mecanic, rather.

As for glitches, well, it really depends on the glitch. Some of them aren't a matter of "knowing" how to do them to be performed, but they just take a little too much skill (shell jumping) or just take too many tries (block duplication), so those wouldn't be as friendly to new players. Otherwise, I think they're fine, but unless you incorporate them in a very interesting way they'll just feel out of place.
It's easily the best thing I've done
So why the empty numb?
Some hacks had fake exits and the player was supossed to hit a kind of switch to avoid falling into his death. I remember this in normal non-kaizo hacks (MGU2 being an example). It's fine as long the player is informed about this. As for glitches, they may work more for kaizo-like hacks, because normal hacks are usually supossed to be played without using glitches.
Originally posted by norris4president
When playing mario hacks, I've always thought that fake exits were very interesting and added some fun puzzles to levels. So when I started to make a hack, I decided to put them at the end of some levels. Then I read the tips on this site and found out that they're not allowed.
IMO Tip of the Day is outdated and needs some amending. There are exceptions to post-goal deaths.

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But then I thought of something, would if I made it into a well-designed level mechanic? So what I did was put a fake exit and, right before the exit, put a message block that says something along the lines of, "Be careful, going through the goal will cause mario to walk to his death, try to find a way to make the path safe." I don't find this unfair because the game literally tells the player that the exit is a trap.
If proof of death beyond the goal post without some kind of puzzle being solved is visible to the player without this message, that implementation is fine too. Otherwise, it's frowned upon in any hack not classified as a Kaizo or Pit.

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I also did something similar with needing to use glitches to beat a level. I put message boxes that teach how to perform the glitches to newer players.
This depends on how luck-based the glitch is to perform. Block cloning and wall jumping (not counting the patch that enables it all the time) would not be okay in standard hacks, but are fine in Kaizos and Pits. Causing multiples of an item to be in a level by bringing the item back into the room via a pipe would be a glitch that's okay in any type of hack as a puzzle element.

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So I've been wondering if the moderators would find this as an interesting way to make bad game design a unique level mechanic, or if they would still find this to be poorly designed.
I'd first think about what type of player you are catering to - it sounds to me like an entry-level Kaizo hack might be what you're aiming for based on what you've given here, but I really don't know enough about what types of glitches you want to include. You do not want your hack to be all over the place in difficulty.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
i think the primary problem with falling after the goal is that it can create a glitchy zoom window (after the peace sign) which can possibly corrupt stuff. see address $0660 in the RAM map

so as long as the death occurs before that then it should be ok
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I'd first think about what type of player you are catering to - it sounds to me like an entry-level Kaizo hack might be what you're aiming for based on what you've given here, but I really don't know enough about what types of glitches you want to include. You do not want your hack to be all over the place in difficulty.


I'm trying to make a a very difficult, yet non-kaizo hack with fair difficulty that doesn't rely on frame-perfect timing, inhuman reflexes, or traps that no one could possibly expect. I would teach players how to use very simple glitches that could be done on their first try, if they know how to perform it, that a lot of people know about. Glitches like this include very simple ones such as spin jumping or climbing while grabbing objects, recycling p-switches, flying while carrying objects, and holding two objects at the same time. Most people probably know about these glitches, but some people don't, so I'm aiming towards making a hard hack that's noob-friendly for players who don't know how to perform any of the glitches above, that you can die after reaching the goal, that silver p-switches act as blue switches when entering pipes, etc.
Yes, I know, I don't have an avatar, I can't find any damn pictures that are small enough >:(

Luck-based but you basically get infinite tries.
Still not something you should require in a normal hack.
Your layout has been removed.
That was the only glitch that I was debating on implementing. I probably won't use it because it's luck-based and I don't know how to explain the glitch in words.
Yes, I know, I don't have an avatar, I can't find any damn pictures that are small enough >:(

I fail to understand how it is luck based. You just run into two items placed very close to each other and it seems to always work for me. ...Unless I'm missing something.
Personally, I think implementing glitch use in level design is a big no-no unless it's a Kaizo hack.

Provided the player is warned, I see no problems with goal traps.


Originally posted by norris4president
Glitches like this include very simple ones such as spin jumping or climbing while grabbing objects, recycling p-switches, flying while carrying objects, and holding two objects at the same time.

Without getting into the technicalities of why they might be or should be considered glitches, I've always found it odd that grabbing items while climbing and double grab are considered glitches when Nintendo officially considered these valid abilities as per Mario Mania, SMW's Player Guide published by Nintendo. Maybe they did so to try and cover up their tracks by attempting to give credibility to these "glitches" which they caught early on themselves and never had a chance to patch up before release. It'd be one thing if they labeled them as simple exploits that you can take advantage of or if the book had been published wholly by a third party without Nintendo's input, but then maybe NOA just glossed over the whole thing, so whatevs.... Then again, how trustworthy are guides when it comes to technicalities regarding game mechanics? Hmm.
Originally posted by Minimay
I fail to understand how it is luck based. You just run into two items placed very close to each other and it seems to always work for me. ...Unless I'm missing something.


This thing works only with P-switches or a P-switch + shell/springboard. If I recall correctly, you have to catch springboards from underneath to double-grab these.

But yeah, it isn't very much luck based, but it takes a few tries, because you need some horizontal (or vertical) speed to catch these.

I think it's fine as long as these glitches aren't too hard or pixel-perfect to do. I think it'd be annoying to walljump or to do a glitch that requires several tries to do.
So, based on the replies that I got, here's what I've concluded:

Telling people that there's a trap after the goal is fine, doing that will not be considered bad by anyone.

Tutorials on doing glitches depends on the glitch that is used. But most of the glitches I intend to use are so simple that some people don't consider them glitches, so I'm probably free to do that.

I also failed to mention another reason behind giving tutorials for glitches. Basically, giving the players tutorials will give them an "arsenal" of different glitches to use. Normally, if someone first finds out that the creator of a hack expects him to use glitches, he would never what glitch to use in a level and break the level without even knowing it. For example: if someone enters a level that requires a glitch, they will know to only use the glitches that the creator told them to use, so if a player beats a level using the "item duplication glitch" (which I know nothing about) and the creator never taught them how to do it, then the player should know that he didn't beat the level the way that the creator intended him to.
Yes, I know, I don't have an avatar, I can't find any damn pictures that are small enough >:(

You know, a glitch tutorial hack is something I can get behind, even though some are still difficult even if you know how to pull them off. I guess that's part of the challenge. Sixcorby or Thomas can moderate it: just link them to this message saying I approve of it provided it follows other guidelines, but if you're going to include a lot of well-known, easy glitches like eating less than 5 enemies in close succession to make Yoshi big or berry/P-switch cloning with Yoshi, include some of the harder and more obscure ones too as you go. I'd hope to see this hack be very informative and helpful.

Smallhacker's SMW Glitch Land hack exists but afaik you're on your own in figuring it out; I haven't played it yet... and I'm kind of dreading it.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
Wasn't there some specific glitch caused by dying at the end that corrupts the overworld?
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Paul '96