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Posts by ShadowDragon121
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Originally posted by HoorayForJay
So if the muncher where Mario dies were to be replaced by a cement block, is it still possible and as difficult?

Yes. However an optimal TAS of hacks now would have these whenever you come across this situation, as it saves quite a bit of frames over if you were to land on the block and then re-jump off of the ceiling block again.

Originally posted by SoulJester726
I assume it works the same. I am a little confused by what is going on, but it seems like the fact that the blocks are munchers does not matter. It is just a corner boost while falling, rather than jumping passed the corner to get pushed forward by a pixel... Right?


It is a corner boost, and no the block type does not matter.

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Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
Originally posted by ShadowDragon121
How exactly do upward clips work and are they any different from regular corner clips?


Have you guys reached the upwards corner clip part yet in your tas?


Reached it? Yes. Gotten passed it? No. I think we both have just stopped on the tas because we haven't ever done nor seen one before. If I did see one, and had a chance to investigate it, I could probably replicate it very easily...

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Many thanks :). Tomorrow (since I'm too tired right now) I will have to look into the trick.

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...Wait...
That is a block clip, not an upward corner clip. I call shenanigans.
Unless there is an actual proven way to do it, I am convinced that this upward corner clip is not possible.

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Originally posted by HoorayForJay
Originally posted by ShadowDragon121
...Wait...
That is a block clip, not an upward corner clip. I call shenanigans.
Unless there is an actual proven way to do it, I am convinced that this upward corner clip is not possible.


Not sure if you watched the wrong bit, but there's a definite upwards clip there.



That bit, correct?

Also, that break that I found wasn't a huge thing, just equivalent to my break in the original version. Although, I don't think it would make a big deal if it were changed.

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Another impossible bit has come up since the clip change. Now, you don't have a mushroom to get hit in between the one tile muncher gap in the third room. I'm going to quickly change that and remove the top one...


Originally posted by Thomas

For the record, that is in fact an upwards corner clip. At that height, though, it's likely only possible if you have wings to give you a consistant Y speed.


Really? That is interesting actually. However, if that is the case, Mario would still hit the block to the upper left of the block you are clipping, making the situation still impossible.

EDIT: Also, how does a stair clip work exactly?
EDIT(2): After testing I have discovered that this is an impossible situation, as a slope clip without a cape and without jumping or swimming requires high speeds, and doing so will make your y speed become negative for a short time (about 4 frames with 49 speed), allowing you to briefly perform a slope clip. However, with lower speeds, you will not get any y speed boost at all, preventing you from clipping.

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If you don't feel like the timing would be right if you moved the entrance, why not use cheats? Turn off mario's hitbox and set invincibility frames to a constant value.

Or, you could use bahamete's lua script which has the ability to do the same thing with hotkeys found at the top of the file.

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Originally posted by GbreezeSunset

So, if I add room for running speed, will it work?
Like this



This should work. I still haven't fully tested it but basically the slope clip requires your y speed to be negative for a short time, and jumping onto the slope with an x speed of 43 or more will cause it to become negative. The higher your x speed, the more of a boost you will get upwards. However, I believe that clipping the slope requires the y speed to stay in the negative state for a certain amount of frames, which is probably possible with 49 speed (or slightly less).

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I officially have a desync since the OW change. It shouldn't be a problem though, because I can modify the frames with tas movie editor. Actually, it ends up putting me into the level one frame earlier, so it saves a lag frame.
EDIT: Nope. Editing the TAS ends up with a paradoxical desync between two oscillating frames. So, I am just going to change the one room that is changed in the old version to the one in the new version.

Also, did some more testing on the slope clip without a jump. It may require 1 more tile of slope, as the way it works is that the slope may, based on your position, shove you upwards so that your y speed starts decreasing, but also allow you to avoid hitting the slope in the process. If done correctly, you should slope clip.

The walk clip requires you to be at the very edge of the corner tile connecting the slopes, and have an initial negative y speed (which you would normally achieve for one frame). Then, the corner tile should shove you upwards, but cause your y speed to actually continue its path instead of going back to a positive value (as it would normally), allowing you to get it. Basically, from what I have observed, you need to achieve walljump conditions for the slope tile you are clipping the second frame you are shoved upwards from the corner tile.

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TAS in 10:24.2

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Originally posted by GbreezeSunset

I was afraid that would happen. Well, just change the one part and I'll keep this edited version for future TASes.
Okay, that makes sense. Does jumping down the stairs at running speed work similarly? Mister posted something a while ago about that
Though I always understood that "walking" through the stairs worked differently than clipping downwards like in the smw any%.
So basically, if you get your y speed to stay negative, you can clip the slope? So, does there need to be an extra slope tile so that the right values can be achieved?


An extra slope tile is needed as far as I can see, but not for anything else other than how much span of pixels the trick actually takes over. The y speed boost is caused by hitting the corner tile connecting slopes, but you must boost off of one to clip another. Because of how close the upper corner tile is to the block the trick will end up clipping mario back onto the slope. You must get a y speed boost off of one, but you want to do it at the very edge of the block (subpixel perfect), and this will correctly boost you upwards so that you clip the next possible corner tile. Your y speed will keep negative and allow you to keep from clipping back onto the block, but get you far enough so that you initially actually get into the slope.

As for jump-clipping slopes, I'm not entirely sure, but I'm going to say that it works the same way, and the sprinting speed allows you to more easily get into the (2 pixel?) diagonal collision check of the block (same reason walljumping is easier at higher speeds), and you can control your y speed instead of being dependent on a corner tile to boost you upwards in just the right spot.

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In this post I mainly plan to go into a brief mathematical explanation as to when the trick will most definitely work, without having to make assumptions as to where the block you are clipping is (like going to the furthest possible right and falling off to find where the right of the block is at). Also, many people use something such as Masterjun's script without actually having an understanding of how a corner clip works.

There are a couple variables that you must first keep in mind before attempting the trick (especially if you are not equipped with a proper lua script). The reference point of where you are actually clipping is perhaps the most important. To help explain this, I have brought along my lua script.

The two main variables are the "theoretical" right and left of the block. This just means that we'll be able to reference the two in the same way whether or not we are coming from the left or right side.
To begin, you need to find the grid position of the block. To do this, subtract the modulus of a position within the block (both x and y) and 16 so that each becomes a multiple of 16.

Just for clarity, let's find the grid position of this vine block:


Getting out our lua script

As you can see, we are at position 3203.00 on the x axis. Subtracting the modulus of our value (3203 - 3203 % 16), we get 3200.

Doing the same on the y axis (even though we wouldn't need to if we were clipping the block):

We are actually at the grid y position of the block here, which is 256.00.

So our grid position for the vine block will be (3200, 256)

Now, to find the theoretical left and right sides of the block. The theoretical left of the block we are looking at will always be the grid's x position - 14, and the theoretical right of the block will always be the grid's x position + 13. The same goes on the y axis if you were to find those values accordingly for top and bottom, but we do not need those for this specific example.

For our vine block, the theoretical left side of the block will be 3186(.00) and the theoretical right will be 3213(.f0).

Onto the actual checking of the clip. In order to successfully do a corner clip, the player needs to reach exactly 2.f0 pixels into the theoretical left/right of the block, so that on the next frame, with 49 speed or higher, you will be able to clip the block perfectly.


As you can see here, one of Mario's predicted positions in the future meets our requirements of reaching 2.f0 subpixels into the block (in this case, 3211.00) and he has (-)49 speed. Also, with the simple formula time = (predicted position - player position) / speed we can see how many frames it will be before I can make that clip.

And that's it. The largest part of this is actually finding where the block is at, which can be done with a lua script, and from there all you must do is look for one specific value, making sure that your speed is 49 (and you are going downwards).

* Also note that corner clipping to the right is impossible if Mario is small or ducking, unless he is on yoshi.

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Originally posted by RodAmaral
Are you (3?) still TASing it?
I'd like to play a pit hack in my return!!

I have to admit that I have taken a break from TASing the hack. Sometimes I do randomly wake up and have the urge to TAS though. Something that I really need to do is come up with a way to predict a slope clip without jumping (shouldn't be difficult with my latest script that predicts where the player will be at if you hold down left or right under ground conditions).
I am unaware of where Jay is at, but he is probably TASing on and off as well. Same goes for Gecko.

Originally posted by RodAmaral
As far as I have tested, there's no way to do it if there's another block right above (or below) Mario or the block in question. And Mario needs to be big.


I have thoroughly tested it as well and I am fully convinced there is no possible way to perform it with a block diagonal to the block you are block clipping.

EDIT: Actually just got the slope clip through trying different frame-button combinations.


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Becoming a TASer is not just something you can just do overnight. It takes a lot of time and practice to find out how the game works in nearly every situation, the most optimal ways to do things, and generally be able to predict whether something is possible or not.

Generally to get started, I would advise that you start TASing pit hacks (though others would probably say otherwise). Start with something that you know will challenge you, like Item Abuse, as you mentioned. Although it seems nearly impossible now, all that you need to do is practice, and you'll get the hang of it eventually.
Just a few tips, I would use frame advance as little as possible if I were you, just to get into the swing of things. Also, do not be intimidated by TASes that have been optimized to the point that there is no longer a faster way (though there usually is); when you are first starting out, TASing SMW is about learning the tricks and practice, not trying to be as quick as possible.
As for your second question, cheats are not something you would use unless you were investigating the game or a hack you are TASing (assuming you are talking about physics modifiers).
And as an answer to your third question, there are many methods of walljumping, all of which have certain conditions and certain rules that apply. The most optimal and quickest-to-do way currently is not necessarily the easiest because of all of the rules that apply, so for now, I would start off by reversing the direction of the player for a couple frames before holding the direction toward the wall, as that seems like the easiest for beginners.

Becoming a good TASer takes time, and involves learning new tricks, or more optimal variations of the same trick.
Also, once you are moderately used to the feel of TASing, I would recommend using a lua script rather than using RAM Watch to see real-time RAM. There are some luas (such as my latest one :P ) which I would not advise that you use because they predict values of the game and give you information based upon it (like whether or not you can walljump or corner clip or hold down a direction on the ground and achieve values for a corner clip), but until you've actually learned how the trick works and can do it without a script, I wouldn't recommend that you do that.

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Originally posted by Lil_Gecko
The upper muncher in room 107 is still in the revised version and I don't see a way of passing it without a mushroom.


That should not be there. I think it is safe to say that you can remove it.

Speaking of impossible bits (although I have not worked on the TAS in a while), I'm at this bit:


Pretty sure it's impossible to do a left-corner base clip with this little of horizontal space between the floor and the corner requiring a base clip given the vertical space. I did try moving the floor down a tile, but it was still too little of vertical space. I think what needs to happen is it needs to be moved over a couple tiles to the right, although the layout of the room leading up to the point prevents me froming doing so without a major change (which would probably cause a desync).

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Originally posted by Lil_Gecko
For the bit you're stuck at, it's totally possible :

www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV1i-4frbvA

I was trying to base clip almost as soon as I gained flight from jumping off of the floor to be as quick as possible, but I guess I could resort to that.

Originally posted by SuperAgentYoshi
Well shit, will this hack ever be beaten?

I mean its been around for a long time and people are still trying to beat it.

I would've probably beaten it a while ago but I have not really been interested in TASing lately. The hack really isn't that difficult, it's just that you must know how the tricks work (this must seem ironic given that I asked about a very easy base clip just trying to be as optimal as possible).

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Originally posted by Lil_Gecko
Can you tell me the specifics of the stairs clip, I still can't do it

You need to achieve walljump conditions on the very left/right position of a slope. It may sound easy, but you need to do it while you are walking on the slope to get the y boost needed to achieve a slope clip. If you are still confused, I would recommend building a huge slope in lunar magic, jumping on it with maximum speed, and keep walking on it until you get it to understand it better.

EDIT: Is the shelljump bit tested? I put up a fail video, and I know that it would be for sure possible with the far-left munchers on the second line removed:


EDIT(2): After persistently attempting the same thing, I ended up deeming it impossible, along with almost the entire bottom section of the shelljump section. Here is a changed version which is definitely possible:


Can you only duplicate blocks upwards with a stunned mole?

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Originally posted by Lil_Gecko
Could you send me a smv of a stairs clip ?

I used a lua script to test every single x subpixel and yet couldn't clip.

Either I've done something wrong with the script or there is Y (speed or position) condition too.


For open resource (in case anyone else is confused), I posted the smv link here.
I paused right before the clip, so as soon as you unpause, you will stairs clip.

Whelp, the puzzle is impossible in the green shelljump room due to the lack of being able to duplicate sideways with a stunned mole, although I found a break to skip it.

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Pretty sure I found another impossible bit. At this specific place in the ice room:


The disco shell will always fall in the path of the other shell, even with the best item management. My solution is to move the second note block three blocks underneath the first note block.


TAS in 6:43.96

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Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
Well, That was absolutely awesome.

Thank you :). This has to be my favorite hack yet! I hope you make more!

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
I have to say, thanks a lot for being patient with my laziness and bad testing abilities. I was impressed at a lot of breaks, especially the "intended solution" in the green room.

I know how you feel because when Jay and I first released c3 there were a few impossible bits that we had to discover by others saying something about them (and finding a couple for ourselves, which we ended up editing last-minute). Speaking of "intended solutions", that shelljumping bit after the second visit to the purple ice cave room in c3 is actually not intended to have a walljump; you are meant to shelljump all of the way through :P. So yeah, don't feel bad because I can relate.

Originally posted by GbreezeSunset
I suppose I could fix some parts, such as the green room, but your way looks better anyway... so I think I will use your edited version as the final hack (and delete all other versions). Again, sorry for making the hack somewhat of a pain to TAS, with all the impossible bits. The only thing I can think of fixing would be the cutoff at 5:49 in your TAS, and changing the level mode in the grey level to avoid yoshi's tongue messing up. So, hopefully it won't cause desyncs.

But that TAS is easily the most impressive TAS I've ever seen!

Edit: Here's an edited version. See if it desyncs with your TAS. A list of things I fixed:
Cutoff in icy room
Got rid of mushroom tile in flying room that had bad graphics
Fixed yoshi's tongue graphics in grey room

The edited version works completely flawlessly with my TAS. Idk why the new LM takes into account the midway entrance when determining the amount of screens within a level.
Thanks Again!

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