Language…
8 users online: Daizo Dee Von, ezdeez85, GRIMMKIN,  Nanako,  Ringo,  Segment1Zone2,  Telinc1, toady - Guests: 230 - Bots: 273
Users: 64,795 (2,375 active)
Latest user: mathew

SMWCP 2 difficulty

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
In my opinion, the levels should be tested by people of various skill levels (as opposed to pro testers and the creator himself/herself). I think one of the reasons SMWCP became so hard is because the testers were either the creators of the levels they were testing or pros. The same thing ended up happening to ASMT. I also think that checkpoint placement is an important factor.

In additional to being difficult, there was also one point at which the first game was repetitive. I am referring to the cave void. I had to go through a certain area 6 times total to get 3 p switches, then another area 4 times total to get 2 more p switches, because I needed all 5 in the end. Hopefully, something like that does not happen.

Normally, I would be excited to playtest some levels, but I realize that my standard of difficulty is not a good standard. What I find to be fair, most people would find to be unfair. Regardless, I do wish to download a demo of this and play it.
don't click this link...
There are people who appreciate a high level of difficulty though. That's why games have high difficulty settings. And when they don't go high enough a bunch of people complain about games being too easy. And people use the term "casual" as a pejorative because others that can't play games that they can are of course inferior, which makes perfect sense. It's a waste of the potential of these hacks and Mario mechanics if extremely hard levels don't get made. The reason Kaizo is retarded is because it requires pixel perfect movements that are impossible to do consistently. Or even when it's not impossible, it's not done by continually looking at your character's location relative to its surroundings, it's done by memorizing what pixels to stand on when you jump or something boring like that. There are parts in SMWCP where you hide enemies behind trees. Stuff like that is almost as dumb, because that and the Kaizo stuff are both cheap. But as long as cheap stuff is avoided I really want to see levels that are harder and harder.
I mostly play hacks without saves (and in my hack every level I make I test it If I can beat it without saves).


So in Nexus Norvegious (If this is the Norveg level), it's hard I think to avoid those lasers. I must say pretty hard to avoid those lasers!


Of course I lost here and there,but in levels where bosses are to do a midway point before the boss (or 2 rooms with etc screens before the boss).

I think you are using the multi midway patch? Or am I wrong maybe???

The hack will be tested vigorously during the beta testing phase by multiple people. If something is deemed too hard or unfair for the world it is in, then it will be changed. The idea is behind it is you shouldn't need save states to complete this game. It will start off pretty easy and get progressively harder and you make your way through the worlds, just like any good game. It should hard enough to challenge any gamer, but still be fair enough were its not Kaizo.

@xImseiken3: Yes we are using the MMP. As for the lasers in NN, its not all that hard as you can tell by the ground where they are going to hit. As long as you avoid that spot, you are good.
Layout by LDA during C3.
Originally posted by Lightvayne
It will start off pretty easy and get progressively harder and you make your way through the worlds, just like any good game.


Actually, it's not exactly "any good game". Regarding sequels, if the player has finished the first game, he is already good at it, so he should appreciate something that progresses from it. After all, pretty much every game goes up in difficulty as you progress, so why not keep going? You would think this sort of increase is desirable. But most players are ignorant as to how fun it is to play hard games, or they react to every loss as if it wasn't fair, or they lack passion and are content with whatever they're doing, etc. Anyway, an example of such design is Cave. I'm pretty sure their games got much harder since the Toaplan days. Well, maybe they still start out relatively easy, but they ramp up very quickly. I imagine making such a sequel is much more demanding than doing the same thing again though.

Anyway, I thought I'd make the point about difficulty because it doesn't strike me as a bad thing that a stage requires one and a half hours to reach the midpoint. That a stage requires a lot of practice doesn't necessarily imply bad level design. It can be the opposite.
Yea but you're forgetting this hack is supposed to be fun.
Your layout has been removed.
lol, yeah, that's the typical response. Almost every game doesn't just have the aspect of overcoming difficulty the whole way through due to a coincidence. As long as it doesn't get to the extent where the whole process changes into meticulous memorization because the human capacity for automatic, non-deliberate memorization and reflexes can no longer handle it, more is better. The whole point of action games is developing skill, and the process of doing so is fun okay? I just want you to enjoy yourself more. There are lots of games that are extremely hard that many people will tell you that they enjoy enormously.

Anyway, make the hack how you want. Like I said, I just can't not say something when I see that attitude. Those people should know that hard games are a good thing and that they are wrong about them.
Originally posted by shanks
Anyway, I thought I'd make the point about difficulty because it doesn't strike me as a bad thing that a stage requires one and a half hours to reach the midpoint.

Now what exactly do you mean when you say this?

Are you referring to one and a half hours' PRACTICE or the actual time it takes to get to the midpoint?
The first one, I think we're OK with, particularly in the last levels; the second one is absolutely insane.
Check out my music!
Difficulty and difficulty curves are the most challenging things to organize in a large collab hack like this. Everyone has differing standards, people make fun of each others' standards ("Your level is too easy! Go back to playing Kirby." "Your level is too hard you stupid Kaizo hacker!"), and there's no single standard on difficulty.

The first SMWCP was over-the-top. Yes I joke that people have no idea how hard the hack used to be in its beta form and how the people who whine about Zephyr Manor should go play the beta version, but, in reality, the hack's difficulty was a bit much for non-SMW hackers. The ability to save after every level mitigated this a little bit, but not by much.

Recently, my cousin came over, and I had SNES9X running on my Wii. I told him about SMWCP and how hard we worked on it. He asked if he could play it, so I started it up and gave him the controller. Level 1-1 was frustrating to him (getting shot out of a cannon and sliding into enemies? Come on.), level 1-2 was kind of piss-easy, and he stopped playing after dying several times on level 1-3. And that cousin is a veteran of video-games.

It would be really great if, during the beta-testing process for SMWCP2, you guys could get some non-hacker volunteers. I'm talking about the people whose last encounter with SMW was playing the original on the SNES or Virtual Console. I'm talking about the people who have only cursory knowledge of Lunar Magic and who have never played SMW hacks. Someone like my cousin. A truly fresh pair of eyes for the hack.

People involved with the hack should consider inviting their non-hacker friends to give it a try. You provide the emulator and ROM, they provide the feedback. This would give the SMWCP2 team a very unbiased and realistic form of feedback that would be invaluable to the project.

Anyway that's just something to keep in mind.
Originally posted by Camerin
It would be really great if, during the beta-testing process for SMWCP2, you guys could get some non-hacker volunteers. I'm talking about the people whose last encounter with SMW was playing the original on the SNES or Virtual Console. I'm talking about the people who have only cursory knowledge of Lunar Magic and who have never played SMW hacks. Someone like my cousin. A truly fresh pair of eyes for the hack.


Yeah but consider the demographic of people who will actually play the hack. A person's 75 year old grandmother isn't likely to download an emulator and this ROM, and neither is someone like your cousin. I'm not saying the game should be totally inaccessible to these people, but I think if we want an accurate representation of the difficulty of the hack on average, we should find people who a) have played SMW, and b) play video games regularly. They don't necessarily need to be hackers, but they also shouldn't be random people off of the street either. Someone like Kieran immediately comes to mind - plays enough games, but has had no experience at all with SMWCP2 and barely even hacks. Find about 10 people like him to give the hack a run-through and then average out the results and see where the main problems lie. At the same time, have a few people who are avid SMW hackers and another group who have actually WORKED on the hack to handle the technical side of the beta testing.

Also, regardings shanks' comments: I don't disagree with him. People seem to be afraid of difficulty, but it's totally okay in the later levels. We just need to make sure it's real difficulty and not total bullshit.
Quote
I'm not saying the game should be totally inaccessible to these people, but I think if we want an accurate representation of the difficulty of the hack on average, we should find people who a) have played SMW, and b) play video games regularly. They don't necessarily need to be hackers, but they also shouldn't be random people off of the street either.


...Those are exactly the kind of people I meant, though. People who aren't necessarily hackers but who play video-games regularly and have an appreciation for level design, aesthetics, difficulty curves, etc.

Maybe I didn't word my post properly, but we're after the same point. I definitely don't think that we should copy Nintendo's recent motives and cater the hack toward people who don't play video-games (and who probably don't give a shit about them). Unless, of course, people actually want a Super Guide/the inability to die/a game that basically plays and beats itself.
Okay, yeah, it looks like I may have interpreted your post incorrectly then.

Either way, we'll get a few people from various demographics (preferably unbiased) and that should give us a rough idea of what needs to be fixed.
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2