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Proposal for a SMW-remake contest? Ideas? Thoughts?

Originally posted by Lazy
I'm for creativity.

This.


Originally posted by Lazy
Every VLDC, there's a slew of submissions that look pretty but are an absolute bore to play though. This contest would finally get people to put some thought into their level design. That's also why this would actually be hella different from VLDC.

I disagree. The people that know how to make good levels and have done so throughout VLDCs will continue to do it here while the people who aren't the best at designing levels won't suddenly get any better in this contest.
The scoring criteria would be changed, but the level quality will not be any different (well, it'll be better because the contest will be less big and thus less absolute newbies will enter, but that's a different factor). They'll look generic and still be an absolute bore to play through.
I honestly just don't think "VLDC but without the aesthetics criteria" would make for a very exciting contest, and I'm not just saying that cause Vitor will yell at us if we make a second VLDC right now.
I'm not saying a contest like that won't ever happen, just definitely not right now where VLDC already exists.


Originally posted by Lazy
As for the authenticity vs. creativity debate, that just sounds like "imitate something" vs. "come up with something on your own" to me so uh. I'm for creativity.

Looking over people's replies, that seems to be the consensus yeah, there were only like 1 or 2 people that want that 24h contest extension. I guess we can drop that one then, cause as I said earlier I agree the format is definitely better suited to something like 24hosmw.


Originally posted by Lazy
@disallowing unintended behaviour: what why

Because that would fit the original proposal of a SMW-remake contest without making it boring by adding the authenticity category. No game would be published on the SNES that legitimately exploits its own mechanics for design, they'd just add stuff.
Which is where the other two proposals stem from:
Either we let people add custom stuff and jank however they wish as long as it LOOKS like SMW or we disallow custom assets and stuff that clearly wasn't intended. Options 3 and 2 in the earlier post I made.
Both would differentiate it from VLDC a lot, enough to warrant being their own things.


Also it's not like I have any kind of authority here so if you don't agree with anything your vote counts as much as mine.
Your layout has been removed.
Option 2 sounds like the best idea to me.

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I'm working on a hack! Check it out here. Progress: 64/95 levels.
Originally posted by Lazy
Every VLDC, there's a slew of submissions that look pretty but are an absolute bore to play though.


They're likely a bore to you because you are used to the janky gameplay gimmicks associated with JUMP/JUMP 1/2. You have to understand that there are a large number of people who treat the VLDC - and really, SMW hacking as a whole - as more of an art form than anything. Some people don't find these levels dull at all, and I feel like those folks are sometimes shunned for even having this opinion.* Take Fabulatory in the VLDC9 for instance - it doesn't do anything thrilling design-wise at all, but the sheer amount of effort put into the aesthetics actually resulted in a lot of people having strong positive feelings towards the level. I wouldn't consider it an absolute bore to play through, but I'm sure some people would.

*note: this is not an attack on you, but rather just a statement of my own opinion. I am fully aware that there are exceptions to every rule. I've played levels that look like absolute garbage but I had a blast with, and I've played really pretty levels that truly are boring. There just seems to be this strange generalization from certain people that aesthetics mean literally nothing when they are very much capable of enhancing or destroying an experience singlehandedly.
2. i find it ironic that this contest focused on simplicity is getting so complicated, but 2. Keep it simple, keep it focused.
ask me if i give a f*ck...
Yeah S.N.N., a lot of people treat the vldc in different ways. For me, I find a thrill in designing the most non-vanilla looking level possible. For others, it's all about gameplay and design, and for others, aesthetics. If I want to play super fun levels that are gimmicky and amazing and hilarious, I can just play jump and jump1/2, or any of the kaizo hacks out there. The vldc can't be expected to be like that, and when I design levels at least, I'm not aiming for "most fun level ever". Part of what me and Eminus are designing is for the fun factor, but also for the challenge of creating something that looks and plays totally unlike a vanilla level. I think a lot of people find enjoyment in the vldc that way.

That's why it would be cool to have a contest where the gameplay takes front and center, which is where this discussion comes in.
Unless I'm mistaken the direction of this discussion is pointing towards VLDC but made as boring as possible? It's the same direction VLDC took a few years ago, that also ended up being poorly received which is why those changes were returned. I'd rather option one or two because at least that adds some personality. Maybe one is suited best for 24ho contests, but its at least the most interesting sounding!

Quote
Agreed. I wasn't really a fan of the authenticity category in 24h, felt like more of a creative restriction than anything.

Hardly so. I`d say a difficulty designing under a certain theme be that a nintendo-ish level or whatever else, is a lack of creativity on the designers part rather than a fault in the contest. We already host two open ended contests and I really don`t see the point in a third.

I find the issue taken at limitations like "no abusing glitches" quite surprising considering that vanilla, in itself, is also a restriction. A rather large one at that too, and I don't really see how it isn't restricting creativity in a similar way.
agreeing with gbreezesunset here. the more i think about this, the more i realize that this may prompt people to focus more on the creative things they can do with the original smw resources. i for one highly favor design creativity over aesthetic creativity, so i like the idea of having this type of contest.

i'd argue that aesthetics are a bigger part of the regular vldcs than design creativity. simply look at half of the top 10 entries from the vldc9; they ranked as high as they did because of their aesthetic creativity. i think ignis fatuus is the best example of this. design-wise, it was pretty straight forward; it didn't revolve around any kind of theme or contain any unique gameplay elements. i'm also certain that subterranean glow and interplanetary wouldn't have placed in the top 5 if it wasn't for their aesthetic creativity. i'm not saying these levels aren't designed well nor am i downplaying them for focusing more on aesthetic creativity, as it was, again, part of the contest, and they obviously wouldn't have made it into the top 5 if they were poorly designed. i thought interplanetary was very creative with the space setting and i thought ignis fatuus was a pretty fun play. i am saying however that this is what would make a pure vldc different from the regular vldcs, maybe not wildly different, but still a change. although this is assuming that creative use of smw's resources is going to be a more prominent part of judging than only "is it a well designed level"; that's what i'm hoping for at least. disallowing unintended behavior would hinder this though.

i'm against authenticity not only because it won't make for a very interesting experience for both the level creator and the player, but if we're going to be making a collaboration hack with all the entries and advertise it as an "original smw-themed hack", we would have to trust the entrants to actually keep their levels authentic to the original smw. keep authenticity in the 24-hour contests.

Originally posted by Wavee
We already host two open ended contests and I really don`t see the point in a third.

to be fair, this is assuming that the staff doesn't suddenly decide to not have a cldc/vldc one year. whether or not the contests happen all depends on if there's someone who wants to host them. running a contest takes time and commitment, especially if it's as huge as the vldc.

would've posted earlier but i suppose i wanted to really think about this first, and i was kinda worried i would be repeating what's already been said, but w/e.
Agreeing with pretty much everything sixcorby said. I just want to point out that Ignis Fatuus's design is extremely solid. The level feels really professional to me--it isn't obviously trying too hard to be professional, but somehow it is. Something about the level design and aesthetics makes it that way. Of course the creativity could definitely have been pushed further, but I think it did what it set out to do.

I have another worry about this contest. If there is a large focus on design creativity, I'm afraid people will try to hide their gimmicks until the last moment as competitive nature. Obviously this isn't what we want because we're here to expand and move SMW level design further as a group. However, I'm not sure how to solve this issue without making other little problems as well.
Originally posted by ft029
Agreeing with pretty much everything sixcorby said. I just want to point out that Ignis Fatuus's design is extremely solid. The level feels really professional to me--it isn't obviously trying too hard to be professional, but somehow it is. Something about the level design and aesthetics makes it that way. Of course the creativity could definitely have been pushed further, but I think it did what it set out to do.

I have another worry about this contest. If there is a large focus on design creativity, I'm afraid people will try to hide their gimmicks until the last moment as competitive nature. Obviously this isn't what we want because we're here to expand and move SMW level design further as a group. However, I'm not sure how to solve this issue without making other little problems as well.


Ignis Fatuus reminds me of a regular smw level by Nintendo in terms of professionalis; it lacks that fascinating "jank" quality of creativity seen in JUMP or Lazy and Worldpeace's vldc levels, but it is very smoothly designed. That jank creativity thing isn't necessarily un-professional either, since a lot of video games are designed in that style (SMB lost levels, parts of DKC with rows of saws and stuff).

That could also be a potential problem. There's an unlimited amount of potential out there, but a limited amount of "vanilla gimmicks", and the lack of map16 really restricts the amount of gimmicks you can use. I can already think of a few ideas I'm using for my level that don't use map16 and have barely been used in the vldc's, but they're theme specific and enhance the atmosphere more than anything. In terms of "gimmicks", I feel like people would be super protective of their ideas. I guess the only way around that is for people to realize that levels won't be scored higher due to "uniqueness". For example, if 3 levels use line guide mechanics glitches, all 3 will be scored as if they developed their ideas independently of another. But if the concern is that the 1 person who makes their level first is worried others will copy the idea.. that's just something you can't avoid in a contest unfotunately.