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VLDC12 - Judging & Compilation Update

Okay it's time for a judging update. I apologize for the relative radio silence but I have been having one hell of a terrible month that isn't looking to get better any time soon. But that's something to maybe talk about another time so let me get into it.

Basically, three judges are completely finished with judging: myself, Sixcorby, and Sinc-X. Medic and Teyla have both dropped judging due to the high average difficulty of levels across the contest making it too hard for them to accurately judge the levels. Atari 2.0 will be the backup judge in their places. This means we will go from 5 judges to 4 total, as I don't want to have to seek out a 5th judge at this late stage in judging, whereas Atari was always planned as our backup judge from the beginning. While he is starting from the beginning of the entries, I'm not going to rush him on it because he's already spoken with me about a reasonable timetable given his schedule. Please don't rush him either.


As for a VLDC12 compilation, I did plan to have more to say earlier but I refer everyone to my previous statement about my irl situation. I will say this, however: It is my intent to make or start a VLDC12 compilation at some point in the future. Seeing the VLDC11 compilation underway is definitely an inspiration here. However, I do not wish to start it or undertake it as a project for myself until my real life situation gets better, and I am able to focus and devote time to planning and working on the compilation. Therefore, while I'm announcing my intent to make a compilation today, I'm not going to begin any work on such a project right now. Additionally, at the very least I want the results for VLDC12 to be out before we think about a compilation, since many things can only be decided once we have the final scores.

Thank you all for understanding.
Good luck with your situation, FP0. If you need to unload, I'm always here for you. ^^

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
Thanks for the update, I'm excited for these results. Also, sorry to hear about your irl situation. Hopefully it gets better soon.
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I hope your irl situation gets better as quick as possible!

I can totally understand real life situations coming up, so take all the time you need to take care of whatever it is. I don't mind waiting at all.
We wait patiently. It is good news that there is an intention for VLDC12 compilation.
Don't be in a hurry for results.
I think map designs can be started early.
Actually I am planning to draw for some map sprites but animation, exgfx etc. I am not well informed on matters.
I can only draw (eg porcu-puffer, rex, monty mole in VLDC9 maps).
But I'm not sure.
Now that I've started working, I won't be able to be as active as before. This is really very sad and depressing for me.

WORK IN PROGRESS
▬ good old days 4 (10/? level(s) completed)
▬ dumb 2 - strange levels in my notepad (22/62 level(s) completed)
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By the way my Youtube channel
Originally posted by OEO6
I think map designs can be started early.
Actually I am planning to draw for some map sprites but animation, exgfx etc. I am not well informed on matters.
I can only draw (eg porcu-puffer, rex, monty mole in VLDC9 maps).
But I'm not sure.

I think you should leave the maps for when we potentially start compiling the entries (i.e. after the results). It's too early right now.
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Originally posted by Katerpie
Originally posted by OEO6
I think map designs can be started early.
Actually I am planning to draw for some map sprites but animation, exgfx etc. I am not well informed on matters.
I can only draw (eg porcu-puffer, rex, monty mole in VLDC9 maps).
But I'm not sure.

I think you should leave the maps for when we potentially start compiling the entries (i.e. after the results). It's too early right now.


OK. I know it's early.
I said maybe I could attempt such a drawing and I'm still not sure.
I will consider after the results are announced.
Now that I've started working, I won't be able to be as active as before. This is really very sad and depressing for me.

WORK IN PROGRESS
▬ good old days 4 (10/? level(s) completed)
▬ dumb 2 - strange levels in my notepad (22/62 level(s) completed)
----------
By the way my Youtube channel
Take it easy, man.

I know this is a huge project that many many people are waiting on, but as I said, life takes priority above all else. If you're unable to work on said project, I always say leave it for later. If you're feeling sick, or unwell in a certain way, prioritize recovery before all else.

Whatever the case, I hope things get better. I've been down this road already this year. It sucks. I know how it feels. Just focus on what's really important. The rest of us will wait.

-----------

STELLA!
I wasn't counting on compilations being a thing anymore after VLDCX failed, so this doesn't exactly come as shocking news. (not saying this in a disappointed way, but in a genuine "kudos for even still trying" one.) By all means take care of real life first!

Honestly it's much more of a surprise to hear you're already done with your judging! That's great news.


 
Originally posted by FPzero
Medic and Teyla have both dropped judging due to the high average difficulty of levels across the contest making it too hard for them to accurately judge the levels.

Accurately judge? What does that even mean? I'm really against this way of thinking: "I think the level is well designed, but it's just too hard for me, so I'm not gonna judge it, because I don't want to hurt author". No, if you like the level less, because it was too hard for you, then mention that in your comment and eventually lower the score. It's not Kaizo Contest where you need to have high skills to judge them. And I believe that in order to have the most objective judging, this Vanilla Contest needs both skillful players and also weaker players. Too bad these 2 judges just decided to drop. If this would be real life issues, then I would understand.
Originally posted by Galaer
Originally posted by FPzero
Medic and Teyla have both dropped judging due to the high average difficulty of levels across the contest making it too hard for them to accurately judge the levels.

Accurately judge? What does that even mean? I'm really against this way of thinking: "I think the level is well designed, but it's just too hard for me, so I'm not gonna judge it, because I don't want to hurt author". No, if you like the level less, because it was too hard for you, then mention that in your comment and eventually lower the score. It's not Kaizo Contest where you need to have high skills to judge them. And I believe that in order to have the most objective judging, this Vanilla Contest needs both skillful players and also weaker players. Too bad these 2 judges just decided to drop. If this would be real life issues, then I would understand.

I don't entirely agree with that. I think it is a matter of audience. It's a fact that most SMW hackers have a certain amount of skill in the game for playing it a lot and design for similarly skilled players. To someone who's not used to SMW, most SMW custom levels - including many of generally considered great ones - are a nightmare, for they are not made for these people. The consequence of having those people judge is either: easier levels get an advantage just for being easy, because they're the only ones those judges could enjoy; or inaccurate/false judging i.e. giving high scores to levels they did not enjoy but the "average SMW hack player" might find good.
It's easily the best thing I've done
So why the empty numb?
Originally posted by Galaer
Originally posted by FPzero
Medic and Teyla have both dropped judging due to the high average difficulty of levels across the contest making it too hard for them to accurately judge the levels.

Accurately judge? What does that even mean? I'm really against this way of thinking: "I think the level is well designed, but it's just too hard for me, so I'm not gonna judge it, because I don't want to hurt author". No, if you like the level less, because it was too hard for you, then mention that in your comment and eventually lower the score. It's not Kaizo Contest where you need to have high skills to judge them. And I believe that in order to have the most objective judging, this Vanilla Contest needs both skillful players and also weaker players. Too bad these 2 judges just decided to drop. If this would be real life issues, then I would understand.

Dropping a level's score because of difficulty alone is unfair. A level can be well-designed but also above a judge's abilities, and if the judge can't beat it then they won't be able to judge it properly. I've played all of the VLDC12 levels and some of them are quite hard, so I don't blame the judges here.
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It's not just that. The thing is that heaving only judges who plays hard levels means that hard levels will get extra points over easier levels. And that's not a good thing. We need some balance. Also weaker players will not go easily through levels, they will get stuck on them. This means it will be easier for them to notice some weird stuff or bad design that really good players will simply not notice. Because of that Their comments may be harsh, but this is very valuable info.

Also I mentioned that earlier. This isn't Kaizo Contest where you need to have really high skills. As participant you need to be aware that your level will not only be played by experts of SMW, but also by average players who may have problem with hard stuff. If you use some unique gimmick, you need to explain it well, because this information isn't a common knowledge. There is really nowhere stored this information about special vanilla gimmicks or special interactions between sprites. For example: one level in VLDCX used gimmick of blowing up statues with bob-ombs. The thing is gimmick was never explained anywhere. Judges has been experienced enough to know about this interaction, so none of them pointed this. Later i searched internet and there is simply no info about this interaction. There is no info that Yoshi can eat statues, no info that you can slide kill grinders and other enemies. You can only find out about this by playing many hacks. And that's not a good thing.

I played all submissions and I'm also not very good player. Some of hard levels I enjoyed, some I enjoyed less and some were just stupidly hard for bad reasons. Don't underestimate weaker players. They can notice a lot that seasoned players will not notice and their feedback is very valuable for author.

Judges, don't feel guilty if you enjoyed level less, because it was too hard for you.
I agree with Galaer. While levels shouldn't be punished just for being hard, there is definitely a difference between hard levels that are fun and rewarding and hard levels that are just unbearable to play. If there's levels that are well-designed but not enjoyable to play at all, that should be reflected in the scores somewhere. I wish Fun was brought back as a category, even if it's just 10 points taken from Design (and personally, I think giving Design 50 points is plenty).

Above post was added while I was typing this, but I also agree that those kind of unexplained design elements are an issue, and something I've encountered before while playing older VLDCs. Things like taking a Throw Block through a pipe so it doesn't vanish while holding it are just assumed as player knowledge, when if you were just going off the original game, you'd have know idea you could do that. (Though there's plenty examples of the opposite; Morsel's VLDC4 level, for example, do a decent job informing the player how to use the cape.)

For all I know, the judges are taking these things into consideration, but I'm a little worried these contests are getting too difficult, requiring more experienced players that prefer these difficult levels, making the cycle spiral from there. Again, can't speak for any of the judges/ex-judges, but future contests should have something to curb this.
ftr, "not being able to accurately judge the levels" wasn't actually their reasoning unlike what the op stated. this was a concern among those judges initially but we settled that it's okay if they truly felt they should score an entry lower if its difficulty translates to being frustrating. the reasoning was moreso just the large amount of levels that are really difficult made judging much more of an undertaking than what was anticipated, and it was hard for them to actually feel motivated to trudge through so many entries after all the ones that took so long for them to beat (or the ones that they didn't have the patience to beat at all).
Now that's different story. Yeah, if they lost motivation there is no point for them to continue judging. Thanks for explanation, Sixcorby.
Originally posted by Galaer
It's not just that. The thing is that heaving only judges who plays hard levels means that hard levels will get extra points over easier levels. And that's not a good thing. We need some balance. Also weaker players will not go easily through levels, they will get stuck on them. This means it will be easier for them to notice some weird stuff or bad design that really good players will simply not notice. Because of that Their comments may be harsh, but this is very valuable info.

Also I mentioned that earlier. This isn't Kaizo Contest where you need to have really high skills. As participant you need to be aware that your level will not only be played by experts of SMW, but also by average players who may have problem with hard stuff. If you use some unique gimmick, you need to explain it well, because this information isn't a common knowledge. There is really nowhere stored this information about special vanilla gimmicks or special interactions between sprites. For example: one level in VLDCX used gimmick of blowing up statues with bob-ombs. The thing is gimmick was never explained anywhere. Judges has been experienced enough to know about this interaction, so none of them pointed this. Later i searched internet and there is simply no info about this interaction. There is no info that Yoshi can eat statues, no info that you can slide kill grinders and other enemies. You can only find out about this by playing many hacks. And that's not a good thing.

I played all submissions and I'm also not very good player. Some of hard levels I enjoyed, some I enjoyed less and some were just stupidly hard for bad reasons. Don't underestimate weaker players. They can notice a lot that seasoned players will not notice and their feedback is very valuable for author.

Judges, don't feel guilty if you enjoyed level less, because it was too hard for you.
You're really not wrong about some levels doing a poor job of introducing vanilla interactions and glitches...there were a few in this contest that took me quite a while to figure out because of that.
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