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I disagree with this removal log
Forum Index - Valley of Bowser - Moderation Questions - I disagree with this removal log
Pages: « 1 2 » Thread Closed
When someone rips something it only should be rejected if the rip is poorly made. If the rip is well made but the original clash, is ugly or have bad perspective should be approved, because is a rip and the value of a rip is allows to copy the style of another videogame, also I don't think the rip is ugly, it looks fine for me.
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Originally posted by Gloomy

When hackers download a resource from a curated section, they expect it be of enough quality for their hack, they expect it to be something everyone would be okay with. I don't feel like being the one to make them believe that bad game design practices won't be frowned upon here. I'm a staff member and I have to give the example, and that starts with something as simple as giving them good resources.

The work of a mod should be to check if everything is organized, if there is no sensitive content, if there is no plagiarism or repetition, and if the submission has a minimum quality level (And by minimum I mean something that isn't a complete piece of trash).

This site is not an art museum. It's an archive for SMW hacks and resources. As a hacker, I want the biggest and most diverse amount of resources, not only the "highest quality" (subjectively judged) ones. I'd prefer to have the ratings and comments of the community judging the submissions than the moderators.

Originally posted by Gloomy

SMW Central's purpose is to be an archive of curated hacks and resources, otherwise we wouldn't have any moderation in any section.

That's not SMW Central purpose? Then the site just has a bad purpose. This site can only live with the efforts of the community, and the members should be the ones to do this kind of judgment individually.
Originally posted by Gloomy
I didn't know game companies were untouchable gods whose art must absolutely not be criticized.

But the point about the graphics isn't about being organized and being easy to insert? Nobody is saying that Konami made perfect graphics, but you're implying that I ripped very bad drawn assets, and that's not the case. I slept a lot in some details from my first FG rip, but still, I did my best to bring some gorgeous backgrounds to this section.

So basically the moderation is saying to me: "this pixel art is bad. rejected".

I made some mistakes with the mapping and some pixel art, yes. Like I said other times, I do have some guilty in this situation: the screenshots weren't great, the sample level was a mess and I made some mistakes while ripping. But the pixel art itself that I ripped isn't bad. I even fixed some mistakes that I made.

Halberd graphics look odd in perspective, and yet, it was accepted. I'm not questioning the quality of the assets, I think they are beautiful, like the other examples that I mentioned in this thread, but it has perspective issues like my rip, so I don't understand the point of rejection.

Why don't you let the users test the graphic and take their own conclusions? This rip isn't so bad like how y'all are saying

I want the moderation to give me another reason why my rip is so bad that it violates the Core values. Not only "perspective confusing" or "graphics is very ugly. ew".

The organization that I did with the rip was very good, even with the mistakes that I made. The palmask is correct. I avoided using important palettes like the status bar, I named correctly the GFX Slots. The only bad thing here about my rip was the sample level and screenshots, but that's easy to fix.

The palette itself is very colorful. It represents a Kabuki theatre like I said in other post. It isn't a janky mess like you're implying with curating the site to always have "GOOD RESOURCES". It has a purpose and logic behind it, even if yall don't like the assets.

Konami, in the Super Famicom / SNES made some very incredible pixel art. Just because you don't like the artstyle, doesn't mean that other people won't. You're assuming that every user will follow the same criteria you use to judge what a good graphic is, and that's not how the cookie crumbles.

The original Super Mario World has some odd graphics like the background of the Ghost Sunken Ship (giant logs, and very small windows, an issue with the scale itself), and yet, nobody bats an eye.

If you wanna bring to the topic of art direction, I can list even more example of odd graphics and also, backgrounds that I find beautiful. It would be an endless cycle and this discussion would go off the rails very quickly.

I expected the rejections based on mistakes that I MADE, not in "this doesn't fit the site. its ugly". It's not my flaw that Ganbare Goemon 2 uses that artstyle. It's my mistake the mapping of the graphics, the horrible sample level and bad screenshots.

I made my points very clear.

EDIT: Since the assets I ripped are so """confusing""", here's a video of them in use. It's from my hack. The level isn't even done, but here it is:

See? It's not very hard to use these assets. I also plan to give ExAnimation to these red lanterns later.


/\ Amazing art made by Deeke

Currently working on:
Aeron's Golden Cookie Quest

At this point I don't think this thread has much purpuse besides graphics mods defending themselves and people bashing on them, so maybe the solution can be to just send Anorakun a more detailed rejection log with the main issues from the submission so he can improve the tileset a bit and it can be accepted.

That said, it's true that I can't seem to understand why the resource was rejected... the only thing that throws me a bit off is the prespective, the rest seems pretty fine. I would love to use weird resources like those in my hacks tbh.
I'm no graphic genius, but I saw nothing fundamentally wrong with the rip visually. It gave me a Sonic vibe, really. But I really feel like moderation should leave subjective bits out of consideration. Saying something doesn't fit the criteria of submission just because "it looks odd" shouldn't fly here. Maybe if the perspective is waaaay off, but that doesn't appear to be the case here.


User: Hinalyte / ID: 1553 ~ loading kotori.css
I'll keep it short. I hate arguments.

I see nothing wrong about the visuals of the graphics (it's not even ugly or confusing). This kind of perspective is also nothing new to us.
Originally posted by Gloomy
The submission violated the section's Core Values, which apply to Rips too as stated in the footnote, and have been effective since last year and publicly disclosed without complaints.

Newsflash, what was discussed then its unfeasable to cover all bases that could have been discussed back then. I sure as hell didnt see the footnote section as what concerned me at the time was that you make your Core Values explicit and transperant when it comes with subjective rejection of original graphics and assets that were submitted that didn't explicitly violated any rules of the section, which was a decision I supported at the time. The issue being raised right now is two specific things.

The first one is that there are people on here who do not think that the submitted rip in question is a bad graphic worth to be rejected and provided reasons why. And no I reject Noivern's point on showcasing video of tileset in action = arguing against usability. While its true that you should be able to tell the usability of the graphics alone via a static single screenshot, it is not always the best way to judge because there are exceptions in which a single screenshot does not cover how one can guess a function of which individual asset does which and that isn't necessarily a fault of the way the graphic was made by its original artist in question but the fact that the graphic was placed in a bad spot which has more to do with placement of the asset than the asset itself, which has its internal consistency.

This is why people opt for multiple screenshots, .gifs and level videos from the original game and one's SMW hack showcasing a graphic asset in action to show the wider context of how said graphical assets are used. And it is an expectation of rips generally functioning when translated over to SMW to be functioning as close as possible to how they are depicted in the source game. If a graphic asset wasn't useable at all, then no amount of screenshots, .gifs, or videos could nor would show how anyone be able to use the assets to design their custom Mario levels. I don't see that the rip in question that is being discussed in this thread being unuseable.

The second is specifically on that footnote in which it applies to all graphics submitted when the way the Core Values was written covers better on user-made graphics submitted, of which i'm fine with keeping on that in for that because those graphics have the potential to be improved on and isnt made by any faceless corporation that isn't there to listen to us and the fact that we rip without their constent.

But people here disagree with the removal log because as was demonstrated above, the tileset isn't making gameplay harder and shows what and how they are to be interacted with the player. And believe it or not, graphics that have bad pixel art practices such as pillowshading, jagged lines doesn't automatically nor necessarily make the graphic unusable as long as it properly conveys the function of what the assets in the graphic set does, which it does as is was demonstrated in the screenshots seen in SEAWAR Mario World and Anorakun's video.

Lastly on that point if people are saying the problem is with the Core Values itself on how it applies to rips (which a few in this thread are), then you need to edit the Core Values to have clauses that address on what kinds of rips are to be allowed to be submitted because again, the way it was written looks like it addresses original graphics more clearly than it does with rips, which is not the same and requires it own values unique to their context of being rips.

Originally posted by Gloomy
When hackers download a resource from a curated section, they expect it be of enough quality for their hack, they expect it to be something everyone would be okay with. I don't feel like being the one to make them believe that bad game design practices won't be frowned upon here. I'm a staff member and I have to give the example, and that starts with something as simple as giving them good resources.

Originally posted by Gloomy
SMW Central's purpose is to be an archive of curated hacks and resources, otherwise we wouldn't have any moderation in any section.

I wont deny that you are a staff member in charge of the upkeep regarding the SMW ExGraphics section of the site but heres the problem with your use of the word 'curated'. When submitting a resource into a section that is not curation. That's quality control which is less to do with curation as it is on content moderation when you decide to accept/reject a submitted resource/asset in queue based on the rules in question we agree to when we submit. Curation implies that you feature the best of the best, which is better served with the way you have regarding the process of featuring hacks and music resources already submitted.

Originally posted by Gloomy
It will in a section which submitters constantly expect consistency in moderation. Let the noncompliant graphics get in, the rest will follow and will use those as precedents.

Originally posted by Gloomy
I see 0.0000 benefit in contributing to make hacks ugly.

We do expect consistency in moderation, that's why rule changes being discussed among the community exists. No one here disagrees with that idea at all regarding moderators needing to be consistent with the policies in place on what they can or cant do and what we can or cant do as fellow users. We are basically bringing to your attention what is a flaw in the way the Core values are written and applied to a rip that doesn't obfuscate gameplay with its properties and is easy to use that again was demonstrated with a video and screenshots above. That to us, shows that needs to be addressed. You aren't helping your case when you continually defend your position when multiple users here voiced their concerns and criticisms about the way you handled that rip and the flawed policy in application per how that lead up to this.

Lastly if people want to use intentionally weird or ugly graphics that are in the section (which is assumed that whats in the section meets the rules and guidelines to be accepted even to this day) that's their choice to make, and that's not the fault of the user who submitted the resource in question for hackers to use.

On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.

I absolutely do not see anything ugly or clashing with this rip and I really think the graphics mods shouldn't be so babying of the userbase. We can handle ourselves. It's one thing to curate bad rips, it's another to outright possibly reject all rips of a game's graphics without stating it directly. As a Goemon fan myself, what if I were to rip some Ganbare Goemon 2 graphics, would they be rejected over the same issue? It may sound like you're helping the userbase but you're really causing more trouble than its worth. Save pixel art critique for original tilesets and have ripped tilesets go through a process of technicality (how many slots they eat up, are the map16 set up right etc).

In short,

linkies | asm stuff :)

im gay and a lion. I AM VERY POOR PROGRAMMER !!! pixel art no hoper. transcriptions on a hot tin ear.

スヤスヤ・・・ (Art by 1UPdudes)
i understand that we have not had the most appropriate response to these concerns thus far. your guys voices are important regarding this, and i do feel that you have not been listened to fairly enough.

with that said, this thread has a pretty unanimous point in that our removal was unjust, and perhaps reflective of something bigger regarding our core values rules.

i am going to talk with the rest of the gfx team on a resolution, including what to do with the original rip this thread presented. thank you for your guys input. i do wish some of it was less hostile, but i also recognize we had hostility on our part as well.

ah well.

All of this over a tileset? #smw{<_<}

This whole situation is a big mess for no reason. It's very counter-productive to be arguing about something like this which should have been between the person submitting the graphics and the person/team that rejected it in the first place. You all aren't getting much of anything done here with this back and forth nonsense over something you weren't even involved in to begin with. If you have your questions about the issue then you're better off going directly too the mod that rejected it rather than whatever this is.

You people should all know by now that getting frustrated at/making dramatic threads like these does nothing but makes anyone getting mad/acting pretentious here look foolish. Leave these things to the people that were primarily involved with them rather than finding the first chance to jump at the nearest mod with your over-the-top speculations.
Originally posted by idol
thank you for your guys input. i do wish some of it was less hostile, but i also recognize we had hostility on our part as well.

Hostility begets hostility. Your team(s) would do well to remember that.

i don't feel there is a need for further discussions until we come to a conclusion here, so i am going to temp close this. we should have a resolution in the next few days. if not, yell at me.

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