Banner
Views: 854,252,746
Time:
18 users online:  bebn legg, Cartesius, eskayelle, Katrina, LadiesMan217,  Major Flare, MilkyMooer, Miscalc,  Ninja Boy, pixelninetales, PixusPanic, quietmason, rawros, rkinasz, S3TH0s, TCgamerboy2002, TheJavabrew, Ultima - Guests: 59 - Bots: 60 Users: 47,143 (2,479 active)
Latest: rawros
Tip: Try running your hack on various SNES emulators to see if anything is incompatible. Not logged in.
[Sariel ❤ Wakana] - Tarnished Tartarus (Video + Submission)
Forum Index - Important - The 12th Vanilla Level Design Contest - [Sariel ❤ Wakana] - Tarnished Tartarus (Video + Submission)
Pages: « 1 2 »
gee i knew you were inspired by swiss nazca, but this even has the exact same music (in the above portion), the same kinds of walls of fuzzies on line guides, and the fuzzies coming out of the same black tar that swiss nazca had.

i guess i am not sure if this is just a really really loving tribute that tried to follow the same steps but came out feeling a bit less original, or... i really don't know.

sorry if this isn't quite the glowing praise you were hoping for, but this just feels... derivative

--------------------
I'm aware that everyone from JUMP-team would claim that this is just a "Lazy copy" (literally). And yes, the music which plays in the outside part (plus the Fuzz-God itself) was intended to be the most obvious reference to Lazy's level.
But while it takes some ideas from his level, there are only 3 setups that more or less exist in the exact way in Lazy's level (judged by my personal counting), while the rest is new, creational work from us.

Originally posted by Morsel
So this is another one of these levels that takes stuff directly from better levels of the past...

I don't know if this references to the FT's vldcx level too and the usage of the invisible-Yoshi glitch, however gbreeze explained the usage of that glitch in this thread so literally anyone could use that, since the knowledge about it is public. And it's not like a level gets a good rating just because it uses this trick ot would you claim this level only got its 10th place because it used the invisible Yoshi too? There's a difference between "taking stuff directly / copying" and "using an idea and making something new out of it"

That being said, last but not least, I want to underline that our intention is not to say "haha look how easily we can get ??th place just by copying / merging Lazy's and FT's gimmick", but we wanted to create a level, which can be seen as a "child" and a honest tribute of these 2 great entries from the past, while the graphics and setups used in it are a new creation, made to provide it's own "unique" experience.

--------------------
In the grand scheme of things, all works here are derivative (such is the nature of ROM hacks.) Then, sometimes we love things made from each other so much, we make works derivative of that. I would be flattered if I were Lazy or ft, especially if this level stands on the merits it holds for this contest. A decent amount of levels this year I think look and play very similarly, because so many people are attracted to specific gimmicks enabled by strange-acting tiles or have a favorite color (never seen more blue) but it's all good. You have one game, a bigger community, and a limited number of resources so it's just inevitable that people are going to like and do what others do.

In my own opinion, ignoring the levels that inspired this, it looks fun. The visuals are strong... easily among the top 5 for aesthetics. It's an ambience that speaks of doom, and it's very complete, full-looking; a dark and 'ugly' place that ends up being a colorful eye-catcher. I like that there is a warning about the Fuzzies that jump out from below to avoid cheap shots. I don't feel that the level progresses significantly with conceptual twists and challenges, but at least it is steady, if not low-tempo. The platforming seems more traditional and fair, which is refreshing because with puzzles back in season, I want to cool off my mind with a creepy crawly romp. Nice touch in the video sacrificing the Goomba to the Fuzzlord, and the autoscroll part makes a solid ending.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
I really wanted the self-esteem of some Jump TEAM's members. Please get off your high horse guys.

Btw, the level looks awesome Sariel and Wakana!
Originally posted by Morsel
So this is another one of these levels that takes stuff directly from better levels of the past, tarts itself out in fancy graphics and get a huge score because that's what we value here. Enjoy your top ten place and whatever satisfaction you get out of it.


That was really unnecessary of your part, both yours and idol. The level is great, and using a gimmick from other stage doesn't necessarily mean you're copying it.
That's kinda ironic coming from you, idol. Saying that Sariel and Wakana level is uninspired, but yet, defending on Discord that it's okay for kaizo hacks to be derivative. I really don't understand your point at all.

A lot of SMW hacks and levels are derivatives. Nothing is 100% original. What's wrong with making a homage for something you love or for a level you liked? The level is fun to play, has some nice aesthetics and gimmicks, and also, the music fits very well the mood. It's a good entry.

--------------------


/\ Amazing art made by Deeke

Currently working on:
Aeron's Golden Cookie Quest

.
Originally posted by Sariel
I'm aware that everyone from JUMP-team would claim that this is just a "Lazy copy" (literally).
You're aware of more than I am since idol and I posted together by coincidence, and I have no interest in being some kind of subsidiary opinion to her or the 'JUMP-team' or with whatever or whoever you choose to align me.

Quote
ot would you claim this level only got its 10th place because it used the invisible Yoshi too? There's a difference between "taking stuff directly / copying" and "using an idea and making something new out of it"
I called this derivative in my judging comments and gave it points grudgingly because of this. It's certainly a good parallel from the past in support of my contention that ignorant people can be hoodwinked by ersatz material.

Quote
That being said, last but not least, I want to underline that our intention is not to say "haha look how easily we can get ??th place just by copying / merging Lazy's and FT's gimmick", but we wanted to create a level, which can be seen as a "child" and a honest tribute of these 2 great entries from the past, while the graphics and setups used in it are a new creation, made to provide it's own "unique" experience.
It's amazing ft's level was such an influence on you since this is the first time you've mentioned it. i admit you mentioned Lazy 's level, but it was only to say "Of course this is inspired by Swiss Nazca"--there is no 'of course' about it. You can see from KevinM's comment that the police deity or the no spin gimmick was impressive to him yet you were completely silent as to where you lifted these things before I got annoyed with you.
Originally posted by Morsel
It's certainly a good parallel from the past in support of my contention that ignorant people can be hoodwinked by ersatz material.


I'm sorry but who are you to say bullshit like this?
Who is the "ignorant people" that you are talking about?
Did you know everything about smwhacking?

There is no such thing as someone owning an idea even more in a saturated contest as VLDC. People are free to do what they want and what they like and you need to deal with it.

Honestly... how embarrassing.

--------------------
"If you imitate someone, you can never surpass them."

Welcome to the Abyss!
good level
I don't think the invisiyoshi glitch, by itself, should merit any sort of creative praise (including in my usage of it 3 years ago). What you do with it, however, is important. I liked the final setup with the autoscroll (possible because spinjumping is banned). I also am a fan of some of the other setups where Mario is forced to go in a circle with the fuzzies.

I do think, however, that there are a lot more than 3 setups/ideas that were lifted from Swiss Nazca. It is one thing to plagiarize entirely; another to be inspired and build off it in a completely fresh and interesting way. This level, I think, resides somewhere in the middle.
Enough with the salty comments, some of you.

Sariel and Wakana already made clear that this was an intentional tribute. Whether it's been well executed or not a) will be decided by the judges and b) can be voiced by anyone in opinion form in this thread without the need of a personal callout. If your deal is personal, it doesn't belong here. This also goes to everyone replying to these callouts and trying to start fights. Keep it civil.

--------------------
Twitter
Originally posted by Sariel
but we wanted to create a level, which can be seen as a "child" and a honest tribute of these 2 great entries from the past

i just cant wrap my head around this. Certainly this wasn't your intention from the beginning, and if it wasn't then why lie about it? The only explanation that makes sense to me was "they started making a fuzzy level, somebody noticed it was eerily similar to Lazy's level, and then to try to curb those comparisons early they decided to double down and play into those similarities to come across as a tribute rather than an accident."

But if what you're saying is true, that during the pre-planning phase you earnestly sat down together and said "we should do a loving tribute to Swiss Nazca... and also Swissotel but only one hyper specific part of it", then I just HAVE to know... WHY?


(This isn't meant to be malicious btw, I've been genuinely perplexed by this question all week.)
Originally posted by Hobz
Certainly this wasn't your intention from the beginning, and if it wasn't then why lie about it?

Not sure why you felt so compelled to come to their thread and call them liars with this unfounded assumption after they've explicitly explained it was an intentional tribute, which is very far from a perplexing concept.

I said enough with the personal attacks.

--------------------
Twitter
I don't understand this purism of ideas... There is been 12 VLDCs, of course a lot of ideas will be used multiple times. It's almost impossible to do something really new. Between both levels I disagree with these criticism of plagiarism, a lot of the setups were pretty basic, you can't just say "That setup can't be used anymore because someone else used!".

Or should VLDC have a rule aggainst using setups already used? Because then you better disqualify more then half of the entries...

--------------------
Yo Yo YOOO
Firstly I'm not in court, so I'm not forced to justify neither my design decisions nor my "how i revealed this level in this thread"-decisions to anyone. If I decide to so so nonetheless, this is my act of making a compromise with anyone who's - justifiably - complaining, that I lacked explanations about my actual inspirations from the very beginning in my initial post.

Secondly there's a life we have to live parellely to our presence on SMWC. Without going to much into detail, I'm busy enough there and since I'm quite bad at wording (writing this post takes an eternity already) I usually tend to keep my posts as short as possible. I thought it would be obvious enough that our big Fuzzy was inspired by Lazy's Fuzz-God. I didn't consider though that it has been 3(?) years since VLDCX happened and that SMWC got many new members meanwhile, which wouldn't be aware, that this was an allusion to an incredibly clever level from the past, but which erroneously thought, that this was my original work.

Thirdly I can therefore only express my apologies, that I haven't been more clear from the very beginning. The same could be said about not crediting FT in my post where I revealed the entire level. Using his Swissotel-Invisible-Yoshi was something which came up around mid of August and then got implemented for the 2nd half of the level. And for anyone who asks what the Fuzz-God's pupose has been before this change: He was meant to "guard" a moon puzzle I've never been really satisfied with and therefore at some point this idea got scrapped and I had to look for a new usage.

As said I'm sorry of where this thread eventually lead to. As said this level's main intention wasn't to simply copy 2 interesting past ideas, hoping for a good score, but making a tribute to Lazy's vldcx level by developing its idea in a new setting. As said the idea of using FT's Invisible Yoshi glitch came later, but I know I should have credited that as well.
And I know it doesn't serve as an ultimate proof, posting this here, but I hope these 2 chat extracts from my DMs with Wakana can at least support my statements above that this was mainly meant as a tribute and now as a plagiarism
> extract 1 - stating I'd love to do a level like Lazy's
> extract 2 - me confessing I even expect a lower score for only being a tribute, while underlining my main intention, after the first few comments on this level got upset

Last but not leaat I want to express my incomprehension of how some members of this site can feel so salty about such a thing. I'd perfectly understand if FT or Lazy were upset, that "I stole their level" (and I admire FT how mature he behaved not claiming something like that). You know, it's not about arguing, "this idea has been used by member X in vldc_" you cheater only want a high score by abusing his idea for your own level". As I am explaining myself to Wakana in the latter chat-extract it's about creating a fun entry and giving those, whoever will play this (e. g. raocow or some twitch-streamers, but also any private person) a good and fun experience. Most video game's main intention is being fun to the player - this level is no exception.

And being well aware that there possibly might be several other comments questioning my above statement's again I'll leave my argumentation as it is now. I think I wasted more than an hour writing this and anyone who's still upset and feels like posting any other comments of hatred should ask themself if I - some random, silly SMW hacker who isn't even capable of coming up with own unique ideas - is really worth it to waste your lifetime with?

And really last point I wanna express a big thank you from me and Wakana to anyone who arguin in favor of our entry and to Koopster for doing a good job as a mod, preventing things getting even worse. I know I might not have that many fans as some other famous hackers have, but I appreciate you and your support a lot! #smrpg{<3}

--------------------
I welcome people being inspired by the great levels of the past. I do at the same time think we should always be clear when and from where we are taking such inspiration. I think this discussion has been very valuable in clearing the air.

I apologise if my rather trenchant style of expression has upset anyone, which was never my intention (e.g. when I say 'ignorant' I mean ignorant of the previous levels). It is bewildering to me that some people get so annoyed in these situations (e.g. I would have expected Katerpie as a moderator to set a blander tone as the discussion was receding instead of throwing around swear words).

I look forward to seeing the judges comments on this interesting level.
I think the cause for disagreement was that there are two kinds of derivative works:
- ones where similarities intentional and it's expected that people get the reference to the original (like here); and
- ones that are trying to pass of someone else's achievments as their own, and hiding the connection.

The former is done all the time in SMW hacks: levels reimplement gimmicks from other games, or reference popular media as a joke. It looks like this level is of the former kind, and people assumed it was the latter.

The confusion was probably because the authors didn't communicate that well enough everywhere, and because it's a contest level (i.e. the stakes are high) referencing another contest level (i.e. both are of the same kind) so it may come off as more malicious.



Without having known it's a reference at all (and having forgotten Swiss Nazca, whoops #ab{^^;;;}), my impression was that the level is well-made and the ideas really creative! I had fun playing it.

 

--------------------


 
Look I would understand the frustration if someone was ripping off a level in the same contest, but taking notes of what works in prior high placed entries isn't a strategy that should be frowned upon. In fact, taking notes of what worked in the past is encouraged in my books. The only thing I see wrong is they didn't look at what won before VLDCX, but considering the standards change all the time, I'm not too surprised.

I know Sariel explained already that it wasn't their intent to win by taking what worked before, but I'm just saying it's not a bad idea to "learn from the masters".

That's two cents from a guy who allowed a number of fan-made 100 Rooms tributes.

--------------------
Are you an ASM coder and want to trade "resources"? Private Message me for details.
(I also offer SMW Custom Songs in exchange for ASM! I don't do ports though unless it's to remix.)

Want progress on 100 Rooms of Enemies: The Nightmare Edition? Go here to see.

Are you a sample porter and wanna help with 100 Rooms of Enemies: The Nightmare Edition? Private Message me or Mellonpizza for details. Expect trading "resources" in exchange. 4 more left.




I find impressive what people can do while following the vanilla rules. This was a very fun level.
deedoo deedoo hacking police here

it seems you have violated the smwcentral copyright act section 32.1b

you must now hand in your level making card

good day

i hope you all realize how ridiculous you sound

the level was okay in terms of gameplay imo, aesthetics were good and gloomy

--------------------
Pages: « 1 2 »
Forum Index - Important - The 12th Vanilla Level Design Contest - [Sariel ❤ Wakana] - Tarnished Tartarus (Video + Submission)

The purpose of this site is not to distribute copyrighted material, but to honor one of our favourite games.

Copyright © 2005 - 2020 - SMW Central
Legal Information - Privacy Policy - Link To Us


Menu

Follow Us On

  • YouTube
  • Twitch
  • Twitter

Affiliates

  • Super Mario Bros. X Community
  • ROMhacking.net
  • Mario Fan Games Galaxy