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Kaizo thrash talk and motivation ???
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - Kaizo thrash talk and motivation ???
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Mod edit: Spoilers are slurs. Read at your own discretion.

Originally posted by MistaX88
"Oh, this guy probably did this/added this mechanic because he was
retarded
."


Thats the thing about streamers. I usually dont like blaming them in general because they dont even have to be playing the hacks in 1st place.. they could just stick with AAA games and be always happy.

Problem of kaizo is it is a largely 'ego' oriented style. So you will have people who barely beat half of dozen of hacks auto denominating themselves as connoisseurs of kaizo. Problem gets worse when just because they beat one really hard hack in 100+ hours (and maybe even speedran it after just to massage their own egos and impress little kids) they feel like they know it all.

Sometimes it hurts when a streamer like Dode (as example, because hes here) who is quite experienced dislike something about a hack. But at least you can take something from it, even if in disagreement (pro tip: hes not always right). But when i see one of those Dode wannabes complaining about everything about the hacks, i just shake my head and think "no dude.. its not the game.. its just you"
Mod edit: Spoilers are slurs. Read at your own discretion.

Quote
But when i see one of those Dode wannabes complaining about everything about the hacks, i just shake my head and think "no dude.. its not the game.. its just you"
Sounds like a serious case of Notice Me Senpai. The only feedback that matters is when people can tell you why they don't like it coming from a place that is genuine and not motivated by salt.

Quote
Problem gets worse when just because they beat one really hard hack in 100+ hours (and maybe even speedran it after just to massage their own egos and impress little kids)
Ah, the elitist poser. But let's be serious: there is no prestige in playing video games, and especially not like that: that's so physically and mentally unhealthy that I can see why they become such sour personalities. It should be a hobby, not a lifestyle or career.

The "
retard
wrong corner tile!!!" thing only sounds pompous and bitter, and would attract or mold, as people are Playdoh, such lowbrow followers. This is a critic trying to compensate with edginess that they and their followers might find funny, because they are also noticing the most popular things out there are usually funny and (agree or not) it's an easy way to get liked. I believe this is why review styles moved away from hack removal logs here: it was kind of promoting edgy feedback and gave flaws in the complaint visual staying power which took away from the constructive attributes by coming across in a condescending manner. Not a thing to mimic if we want to affirm one another.

If people really would be happy playing AAA games (which funny enough, I think they're the most miserable things nowadays in gaming that I wouldn't take for free and I would happily give the money indie developers are asking for their little retro-inspired game on the eShop) and instead choose an inherently ballbusting genre like Kaizo to promote themselves on, could it be that they want the thrill of being upset? I can see people who don't do fun stuff offline get addicted to that adrenaline rush of being pissed off because it offers a natural high to fill that void of boredom... (and I think this would best explain the rise of cancel culture itself, especially how people easily unify in their hatedoms and feel emboldened by one another.)

All things considered, neither of these sorts of people seem like there is anything valuable to gain from listening to. It really seems like these streams are for people outside the craft altogether. "WHOA LOOK AT THIS REALLY HARD GAME" is what it's all about.

I always preferred written or level-headed spoken criticism. If there is no detail, I don't follow up unless I can reflect upon it and see where the basic word is coming from.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
Originally posted by Counterfeit
But let's be serious: there is no prestige in playing video games, and especially not like that: that's so physically and mentally unhealthy that I can see why they become such sour personalities. It should be a hobby, not a lifestyle or career.

Its every kids dream.. no wonder why it attracts so many people.
But in the end its entertainment business. It can be a good distraction or background noise. Its interesting, at least, that some of the biggest streamers have even redactors and directors for the streams. So i kinda understand it being a career choice. I honestly dont see much difference between this and other entertainment jobs, like being a musician for example (despite the "art" side of thing.. gosh, i hate that word).. and of course, some just want to be street musicians, some just want to play in pubs every friday, some want to be Heifetz, some want to be Madonna, etc
When my level got played by an LPer I do remember seeing comments insisting that I just didn't know how to do things that I deliberately chose not to do out of my own taste, or taking my joke message boxes seriously + as proof that I was arrogant or something. I was prepared for people to not like the level but they chose these random things besides the gameplay to fixate on.

I didn't think about it when I first saw this thread though because it wasn't kaizo and I don't really understand anything about kaizo + stream culture. But to be clear with you, I have been fighting against people making personal comments about level makers for a while. That's just a different subject than how most people took your OP.

--------------------
Very very very shortly, this drab, workaday world and everything in it will be changed forever! Follow us into the golden country, into the empire of the senseless!
Originally posted by 1337doom
That's just a different subject than how most people took your OP.

not sure if 'most'.. and not sure if the ones who didnt understood the original post 'took' anything.

And just to be clear about the topic, im not really concerned about isolated comments. Those are easy to ignore. But theres a point where it gets difficult.
People have different thresholds. Some have 'thicker skins', some have a 'support system'.. others are alone.
Dode mentioned he knows about 8(ish) people who considered just quitting. Thats the sad part.

Who to blame?
At this point i dont think it matters. Its almost a 'cultural' trend. Like some sort of 'racism'. Some feel the hit real hard. Some dont, and laugh about it. And some just dont get it.
See it's this kind of comparison that confuses people

--------------------
Very very very shortly, this drab, workaday world and everything in it will be changed forever! Follow us into the golden country, into the empire of the senseless!
Originally posted by 1337doom
See it's this kind of comparison that confuses people

Interesting. I guess i have to be more careful about using analogies/metaphors. Will probably be really difficult to me.. lol.. but ill keep that in mind.
Originally posted by marathonx
One other big issue imo: like Naro said, when streamers are having reactions to what they're playing (which obviously is totally fine), the problem is when the chat thinks that a streamer's frustration at a game is legitimate anger towards the creator.

those things are different, but they have something in common: negativity. negativity is powerful, more so when there's people in an audience who identify with what they're seeing. there are all sorts of people in that audience: people who are enjoy the negativity, feed on it, and spread more of it; people who are swept up in negativity without awareness of what's going on, going along with the crowd anyway; people who admire the streamer and re-interpret the streamer's attitude without thinking about it; people who see what's going and choose to leave the chat, or else leave the stream altogether. there can be more to discuss when you consider that there are children in the audience.

i know that it's hard enough to deal with my own negativity. still, i know that my negativity has effects in the world. a person who streams SMW hacks on twitch has their own negativity, and that negativity has its effects in the world. it's easy to say that everyone is responsible for themselves, and to say that what the audience does is out of the streamer's control. i think that's a cop-out. i think that a streamer can't fully control their audience, but that streamers can influence their audience to some extent. streamers can choose to let their audience do with that what they will, or commit to feeding their audience in constructive ways.

to be clear, i am not suggesting that streamers should never be negative, because that's unrealistic. negativity exists, and we can commit to trying to do better.

i am also not suggesting that nothing should be criticized. criticism and negativity are two different things.
I dunno, Naro, I get that your native language is Portuguese but a lot of your posts kind of go on weird tangents and feel mad vague. I do agree that there is a lot of assholes in the Kaizo community (who barely count as part of the community considering they're just watchers and not players or creators) as well as the non-Kaizo community (LP youtube comments are a cesspool) but I feel like you could be more clear about the toxicity you're complaining about.

Sorry if this is backseat modding.

EDIT: I personally hella dislike people who stereotype all of ASM hacking as barely functioning crap or critique custom bosses without knowing the sheer effort people go through to make one that isn't just Noob Boss 2, when they're made by hobbyist programmers in their sparetime for an ancient console from 1991.

--------------------
HackPortsASM"Uploader"

Originally posted by lion
I dunno, Naro, I get that your native language is Portuguese but a lot of your posts kind of go on weird tangents and feel mad vague.

Well, im sorry about that. But i cant really communicate any better.
I dont think the issue is because im trying to communicate in a foreign language. Apart from gramatical issues, which im sure everyone is able to bypass, i usually dont find trouble on saying what im thinking. And this difficulty people have to understand whatever im saying isnt exclusive to english;; oh well;;
There was a very similar conversation on #kaizo a few weeks ago about this very topic. I think Naro is talking about twitch chat reaction to streamers playing hacks. I'll give you guys an example since I haven't seen many in this thread.

MDBattleFrog made an amazing kaizo hack called Ultraviolet. Streamers started playing it imediately. But it was a bit flawed in some aspects and streamers didn't enjoy certain parts and they were really frustraded at times, which is completely normal in kaizo. But man, twitch chat was simply insane. People were trashing the hack, calling all sorts of things, it was brutal

I'm glad to see Dode's point of view on this since his chat was one of the worsts in that aspect while he was playing Ultraviolet. Apparently Dode wasn't enjoying the hack very much (which is 100% fine), but every time he said something even slightly negative about the hack, his chat thought it was OK to trash talk it like crazy

I remember whispering to a friend (who was a playtester for that hack) during the stream. I said: "Are you watching the chat? The chat is trashing the hack LUL"

I even said: "Dode hates it, people automatically hates it", but now looking back at it, I don't blame Dode. He was just expressing his frustration like any normal human would

After that, MD removed the hack from SMW Central. I asked him on Discord why, to which he responded: "I removed it due to it being an evidently broken mess and also not wanting to supply content to a toxic community".

He was clearly very frustrated with the reception the hack got. So much work put into it, by many people too, I believe it has an entire soundtrack of original ports by KevinM, and a bunch of ASM stuff never seen before. But it had some imperfect setups that annoyed some streamers and that was enough.

Very sad. I believe one solution would be more strict chat rules. And better chat mods too, because damn
Yeah, I completely understand with his reasoning to withdraw his work. That's a significant loss for us and I feel bad for him since he probably sunk a year of work into it only to be put down for it in such a public manner. It'd make you think, why did I ever bother? I know SMW Central can be far better than this, but I am also aware beyond the forum there are some really awful chats. This thing can't continue. People want to find a home for their work, not feel like they are putting it on a sacrificial altar in the fires of humiliation. Content creators are the blood of this community. Without that blood, the body, SMWC, dies. The creative people being chased away are more valuable than the bashers. There is a stark difference between criticism and bashing: criticism points out an attribute and its effectiveness, gives something which can promote growth; bashing labels one or one's work as inferior, works to destroy morale rather than build it, to defeat someone. They're functionally opposite. On this board, criticism is promoted, and bashing earns escalating reprimand.

I am a firm believer that sanctioned events and official streams should hold the same community standards as the site because it strongly reflects on who we are when people act like this, vocal minority or not, even if it sends the wrong impression, and it sounds like people making their first steps largely find streams are their first big exposure both in their work and to the community. I can see why it's personal. Stricter chat moderation might help. Impressionable watchers get proud of expressing a more intense "opinion" than the e-celeb they are watching, a sense that they are 'true' and 'real' for doing so but can never admit why they're even expressing an opinion let alone with the tone they choose, and these sort of people that, when feeding on negativity, are the kind that are going to ruin the entire hobby. Self-policing tone or being proactive otherwise as a streamer might help in not evoking or in calming these personalities (it is a chain reaction most of the time, think like innocently lighting a cigarette at a gas station and accidentally conflagrating half a city block: intentional or not, without the event at the source, the series probably would not have taken place. A little mindfulness of your surroundings goes a long way.) Consistency with enforcement is important too.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
What is being talked about is very true, I have noticed this the year and a half I have been watching SMW on twitch.

The only solution I came up with was to not follow some of these streamers due to toxic twitch chat, which is truly a shame because some of these people are very genuine nice people, but no twitch chat means no twitch career which means streaming games for a career isn’t viable... adapt to twitch or find a job.

I plan on releasing a kaizo hack in the near future and it will be my first (probably only one). This topic has honestly been on my mind because I don’t quite know how the community will handle it and the scarier thing is if my heart can handle people criticizing something that took me well over a year to create. I’m a very prideful person and sone person crappying on my game who has never opened lunar magic to begin with will seriously get under my skin. It’s scary and exciting.

I have thick skin, but I’m also a very sensitive human being... I’m an introvert and I’m artistic. It’s a difficult thing to work around

I have a daughter, she is my pride and joy, if anyone took a shot at her it would set me off the deep end really fast. I could imagine people who don’t have kids take this situation in the same manner due to hours and hours of work just getting crapped on by a nobody... it’s your pride, it’s your work, it’s you.

This problem exists and naro wasn’t wrong to bring it up, unfortunately a large chunk of the community who fuels this issue won’t know this conversation is happening simply because they don’t Know these forums exist.

My suggestion is communication with the streamers, TW and Ldad do a fantastic job keeping twitch chat in line. That’s why they are mods. These big streamers don’t understand their level of influence on the community.

That’s my 2 cents
The only real complaint I have is the amount of Kaizo hacks and how most of them feel like I'm playing the same thing.

I don't really watch streamers and I couldn't care any less about them. Just don't give them any attention. I'm sorry if I cant bring anything interesting to talk about but people here praise them like if they're God's gift to earth
Originally posted by Aram
The only real complaint I have is the amount of Kaizo hacks and how most of them feel like I'm playing the same thing.

I don't really watch streamers and I couldn't care any less about them. Just don't give them any attention. I'm sorry if I cant bring anything interesting to talk about but people here praise them like if they're God's gift to earth

I always disagreed with how most kaizo hacks have the same level design philosophy, but that's to be expected no matter what, as they were made for RTA-viable people (most of them being streamers) to play and get inspiration from. That's a trend we as mere mortals will witness for a long time and there's no way to cut it.

--------------------
Você é a razão da minha felicidade.
Perhaps many of these streamers should think about what they say beforehand, especially the toxic chat. Words can actually hurt a lot.

--------------------

As I said in my reply, I don't necessarly blame Dode (or any streamer) himself for the whole Ultraviolet situation. It's more their chat than anything else.

But it would indeed be very helpful if a little more effort were put into chat moderation and rule enforcement. It can be a big source of unmotivation (is that even a word?) for creators for sure

I'm glad MD decided to fix some things about the hack and resubmit it, so we didn't lose Ultraviolet. But we might have lost MDBattleFrog, I don't if he's gonna continue making hacks or not
Even if the hack is a poor or mediocre work (e.g. vanilla edits), no one deserves rude words or being treated like a trash. Even if the creator thought it was a great idea to make the thing he/she did in the hack, there's no reason for people to attacking personally in the way we've seen in twitch chats. That being said, I wouldn't blame that philosophy of how kaizo hacks are being created these days.
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