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72hoKaizo #1: RESULTS
Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - 72hoKaizo #1: RESULTS
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I was hoping to get top 5 but im really happy about top 3. Definitely would like there to be more quickbuild contests like this in the future. Also huge congrats to gbreeze and quills and everyone else that participated :D
16th. Nice.

Definitely wish I could've done more with it, but that's what I get for learning about the contest a day late.

Congrats to the big money winners.
Congrats to the winners!
I should participate in more of these contests.

Please pardon the eye.
atari keepin me afloat i owe him my life

not bad though. i wasnt very familiar with other faux water levels so i didn't realize some of my setups were not the most original. monkey sea monkey do am i right.
Very surprised to see that all judges apparently had problems with the keyjumps and/or springjump in my level. Especially because I thought the setups were relatively lenient. Makes me wonder how many smw players actually like these tricks and can pull them off. (no blame on the judges obviously, people like different things in smw).
Any links to the patch files for all the entries?
I didn't make a level so I don't really have any skin in the game. But a lot of snoruntpyro's comments and scoring comes across as pretty subjective and unconstructive, with level design scores were much lower than the other two judges', many of which seemed to come from a place of not enjoying the particular style, rather than being judged objectively. It just seems like this particular judge's scores were pretty significant outliers compared to the other two. You get the vibe that she didn't have any fun/disliked most of the levels ("I'm running out of negative adjectives to use in these level reviews so this level gets to be called "putrid"") and felt that grinding out kaizo levels was a waste of time. The note on several entries that tools were used, where the other judges didn't, then all of the levels where tools were used received extremely low level design scores.

I really don't mean to rag on anybody, just an observation after looking over all of the score sheets. It's just really unfortunate to see levels that were scored much higher by the other two judges get dragged down by seemingly arbitrary 0/35-5/35 level design scores, just because the particular judge wasn't into the style or choice of tricks, style, or difficulty in a level. I mean, a level design score of 0/35, with the only comment "why", and that they had to use tools "obviously" in a level proven RTA viable, in a kaizo:light competition, is pretty lame imo.
For one, "proven RTA viable" doesn't mean anything if it's by the author. It's the author - of course they can do their level reasonably, they know how it's supposed to be played. I'm sure that if I grinded it out for hours and hours I would eventually get it, but the issue is that this is a contest where there are a ton of other levels, and if a level is demanding that much time from the judges then I feel that's fairly disrespectful and unreasonable to expect in a contest environment. If it's its own hack, sure, whatever, but in a contest, I'm not a fan.

As for the main point, though, I feel like a lot of people who've been critical of my judging don't really understand what being a contest judge means. "Objective" judging doesn't mean anything (unless you give points for the bare minimum of a level being playable or something, which I think is stupid). The point of having multiple judges is to get these differing perspectives, not for there to be a bunch of people to arbitrarily assign "objective" scores to levels. I specifically said yes to judge the contest because I knew I had vastly different tastes than the majority of the "Kaizo community" (I dunno if generalizing like that means anything but I hope you get my point), especially after I was critical of KLDC 2020 for having a judging panel with very similar tastes.

It's also very easy to take my scores out of context without considering the overall picture - I just straight up had lower scores overall because that's how I scored things, while Atari and Sariel had overall higher scores. If it's a consistent scale, it averages out just fine, which I think it did. You're correct in assuming I hated the majority of the levels, because I'm not a fan of the precision acrobatics level style and this contest had a whole lot of it, moreso than I was expecting. That's where a lot of the low scores came from. I don't like the style for specific reasons I stated many times in the comments - I think it's boring and cheap (not in the 'unfair' sense, but the 'lazy, easily spammable') difficulty. I also am not a fan of "trolls" or traps in levels as I feel many of them are unoriginal and huge drains on time for grinding out the levels (on top of the fact that I rarely think they're funny in the first place), so I tended to score those levels lower as well.

There were a few levels where I gave particularly unconstructive comments but I did that because I felt the levels spoke for themselves. Nobody is complaining that I gave the YOSHI'S ISLAND 1 level (the 'frankenkaizo' one) or MAUVE COUNTERPOINT joke comments because everyone knew those levels were strange, short, and lacking in substance. It's similar logic for my most "controversial" comments (how'd I get up here, bloodclot, glitchcat's level, vanilla star etc). I felt a lot of those levels were extremely unreasonable to complete in a good amount of time and the incredible precision required would speak for itself (especially in glitchcat's stage which is just a nightmare). I've heard that especially the former is controversial as some other players beat the level in ~20 minutes, whereas it took me nearly an hour to get up to the pipe cannon in the first place before I got killed by the surprise mega mole. I have different skill sets than other players, and that's the point of having multiple judges. You can see this in my DINOSAUR CLIPPINGS score - I gave it a much higher score than the other judges because it was more puzzle-y and played to my strengths, so I had much less trouble with it than the other two judges.

Was my language a little harsh in my comments? Yeah, probably. I'll be a little more careful in the future about that. But I feel many of the other criticisms of my judging are nonsense and expecting things that just weren't going to happen. It feels like that because I don't have tastes that align with popular opinion that people think I judged too "subjectively" when judging is all about that person's opinion in the first place. "Objective judging" is an oxymoron.
As for the main point, though, I feel like a lot of people who've been critical of my judging don't really understand what being a contest judge means. [...]

i actually agree with this entire paragraph, it makes no sense for people to get angry at a judge that judges differently from the rest; like i said elsewhere, if people don't want that then just clone a judge 3 more times. having consistently lower scores than the other judges is not a problem either in my book.

that said, i think there's definitely things to point out; i was taking a look at a couple of reviews that had really low level design scores and most of them were given to levels that in my opinion really didn't deserve to be that low. in particular, the azure lock and vanilla star really stuck out to me because those are most certainly not levels deserving of 0 and 2 points out of 35 in level design. for me it's fine to hate a design philosophy with a passion, but as a judge i think you should do an effort to be as fair as possible too, and flat out giving a 0 to a level that very clearly isn't a 0 doesn't sound very fair. imo a really really low score should be given to levels that can almost objectively be seen as thoughtless or contentless, and a lot of levels you gave such scores to certainly aren't so. they may be thought out to be something you absolutely despise, but they're still thought out, and i think crediting that is not the same as gifting points over nothing.

the other thing i saw was that some negative commentary was needlessly rude or it wasn't constructive at all. it's one thing to openly express frustration and another thing entirely to call someone's level "putrid". giving a non-troll level a "why" as its entire commentary is obviously not helpful in the slightest, and giving someone the advice of "stop making levels like this" is kind of condescending; like i said before it's ok to completely disagree with a design philosophy and you can score such a level accordingly if you want, but it's ridiculous to genuinely advice people not to practice it just because you don't enjoy it, especially when it's a style a lot of people do enjoy. it's definitely doable to say you really really dislike something while remaining tactful.

this is my unsolicited judging opinion but i think it's a great thing to do when a judge hates something yet still comments on something they did like as to encourage it and not just leave them with a feeling of "well shit i really suck at this apparently #tb{:(}". well sometimes you just absolutely hate the fucking thing altogether and it can be next to impossible to say even one nice thing lol, but i know i try doing it as often as possible when it's my turn to judge. it's a great help for the participants.

E: forgot to clarify, i don't at all believe pyro's judging was done poorly, nor that it was bad, or anything like that. aside from what i have mentioned here, her judging was very good and she clearly knows what she's talking about. i'm just pointing out and focusing on the more controversial bits, so if my post came across as me thinking the opposite then my bad.

tl;dr in my opinion the negative commentary and extremely low scores were overdone, unnecessary or undeserved in many cases. a judge giving consistently low scores in general is not really a problem tbh, and i don't agree with complaints regarding that.
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Maxodex definitely put it better than I did, I don't think having lower overall scores is inherently bad, or that judging something like a level design contest could every be 100% objective. It just seems unfortunate that levels like The Azure Lock and Rex and Relaxation, which were complete Kaizo:Light levels with a decent flow to them, had a third of their level design score weighted as a 0 because a judge doesn't prefer a certain style of tricks or thought it was too hard for a kaizo contest or whatever. It's pretty discouraging to see that when you enter a level design contest on smwcentral, take the time to craft a unique level under serious time constraints, that your reward could be an arbitrary zero score (if you use the "wrong" tricks) coupled with some insults.
Welcome, somekaizoguy678 ^^ I hope you will participate eventually. You do bring important concerns up.

(Sorry if I am behind. I started this post 4 hours ago and been squeezing it into downtime at work.)

I think a good part of the discrepancy is the interpretation of the scale: some people feel it in them that halfway is average, others use 7/10 for average (seems like a school grade thing,) so the former style is going to give a lot higher numbers for the same perceived quality. I don't think there is any getting around this. It is also not the first time this sort of thing has happened, and I don't think there is a perfect rubric, and I think this issue is one that goes far beyond just contests or SMWC.

72 hours is not a lot of time for thorough conceptualization plus building a level either, not enough time for most people to show their potential, so to do really well in this sort of contest and impress everyone is rather extraordinary. It's more of a reflection of how well you manage what little time you have than your quality as a designer... and you have to think in real life, some people might actually be getting just 6-10 hours out of this 72 to even work on the entry at all. It is a very challenging event.

I do think snoruntpyro's gameplay feedback was mostly informative, and though I did not play anything to see whether or not I could agree (which ultimately is meaningless no matter how differently I might think: she is the judge and it's not my authority to "fix" hers or anyone's opinion,) I think it was clear what issues she centered her feedback around. Where ingenuity is assessed, you might have to go out of your way to ensure that "freshness of salad" because sometimes people will taste when its "ingredients" are old no matter how well it is put together, or might not like garden salads but fruit-and-nut or meat-covered salads instead and there isn't anything you can do to please everyone (not even chocolate can do that!) Think of it more as, "Exposure to a larger variety of opinion within the kaizo player and maker community draws attention to the areas kaizo hacking can see more growth," and it becomes a valuable insight rather than a Gordon Ramsey-style Hell's Kitchen trashing. If everyone is always content, why think to try anything new, after all.

The same exact situation happens in "regular" contests where judges might have to save-scum or slow down a level or just outright dislike its gameplay while others like or even love it. It's just the way it is.

As for the condescending pieces, I skimmed so I missed it or I might be comfortably numb. But in general, apart from judging altogether, If you really like what you made and someone tells you to stop making it, just keep making it, even if it spites your critic for your levels to exist, because no one can stop you from doing what you like and if it feels good, or you got the base you want and they are happy too, then that's all there is to it. If it gets so far it's like harassment, this user is personally attacking you and driving you away, you're really hurt by it, then you deserve some help in getting that under control too. Speak up if it makes you want to quit: no one should be in that position.

The site has a goal of being welcoming to anyone. This obviously doesn't preclude honest feedback but should be reflected in the way it gets expressed in a sanctioned event, absolutely. As a judge too, you can't expect to please everyone either (this judge is too harsh, this judge is too lenient, this judge is mean or isn't actually mean at all) and it's impossible to gauge how people will handle negative feedback. Everyone is different. A consideration that is rock-solid is that it can be hard to tell what seems like a blatant joke entry apart from someone's first venture into this sort of hobby, so to choose to be detailed even if it seems like the author didn't give you the time to make it worth it can be its weight in gold in meeting that aim.

Just look above you...
If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
I agree with the interpretation of the scale argument. It's pure opinion of whether or not a level "deserved" a 0 - I think Maxodex's post is fine with some good points but I also feel that it didn't take into account what I said about essentially giving levels free points because they have the bare minimum functionality. The levels I gave low scores in design I thought were complete unfun travesties with severe playability issues or levels that lacked substance. Because I scored lower, that meant I used the very bottom of the scoring range for those levels. I think too many people interpreted my 0s in the categories as meaning that the level is some glitchy unplayable troll garbage or worthy of being compared to it or something, which obviously isn't the case.

And similarly @ somekaizoguy, saying that The Azure Lock and Rex and Relaxation were "complete kaizo:light levels with a decent flow to them" is 100% opinion. I thought both levels played terribly and required too much precision from the player to be fun, let alone grind out, which doesn't line up with what you're saying. And that's your opinion, that's fine. Just keep in mind what's actual criticism of my judging (eg the strong language) vs. disagreements in opinion.

I so desperately want to play out this contest, but I am terrified for my sanity.

Originally posted by somekaizoguy678
It's pretty discouraging to see that when you enter a level design contest on smwcentral, take the time to craft a unique level under serious time constraints, that your reward could be an arbitrary zero score (if you use the "wrong" tricks) coupled with some insults.

This particular thing seems to be a recurring problem in a lot of design contests; arbitrary scoring based on personal preference. Definitely something that should be addressed!

Twitch < > Dailymotion < > Youtube

Originally posted by admacXx2

Originally posted by somekaizoguy678
It's pretty discouraging to see that when you enter a level design contest on smwcentral, take the time to craft a unique level under serious time constraints, that your reward could be an arbitrary zero score (if you use the "wrong" tricks) coupled with some insults.

This particular thing seems to be a recurring problem in a lot of design contests; arbitrary scoring based on personal preference. Definitely something that should be addressed!

The way that judging works in a creative/subjective setting is that a judge considers submissions with respect to their own values in the respective field. I would suggest that you first read pyro’s comments above, and second, leave the topic alone, as I don’t think there’s anything productive that could come out of talking about this further.
yeah i just wanted to reiterate that objective judgement doesn't really exist anywhere. people are people and the world is always going to be filtered through their own mind - aka, No Objectivity!

our judges do their best to be fair to a level, but there's absolutely no way you'll ever have a judge who doesnt imbue their opinions or personality into their judging. that just... doesn't work.
I don't have any problems with any of the judges for this contest.

My only 2 cents- it actually is potentially problematic (at least from a theoretical standpoint) for there to be differing scoring ranges from judges. For example, if judge A gives every level between 50% to 100% of the possible points, and judge B gives from 0% to 100%, then judge B's personal scoring is worth double the points (assuming point totals are average without weighting, such as in this contest).

This isn't necessarily a huge problem- when judges are in agreement with their scorings on levels, this has no effect. But when Judge A really dislikes a level that Judge B really likes, it will do better than when Judge A really likes a level that Judge B really dislikes.

Did this happen in this contest? I don't want to make any claims to that degree- the range of scoring could reflect the level of like/dislike, meaning that maybe there just were not as many levels that Atari and Sariel heavily disliked as how many levels Snorunt heavily disliked. It's a difficult thing to consider, and quite difficult to prove that this was a problem.

In the end, I only added this because it is an interesting note in considering the potential problems of using different scoring methods across judges when there is no cross-judge discussion. I have never participated in an artistic/creative contest anywhere where I thought the judging/scoring method was perfect, and many of the others pay their judges quite a but more than here.
I think that all this situation it's just the top of the Iceberg. And all this isn't just a matter of "I have personal problem with the judge itself", it's more... technical.

First, i don't play kaizos but i'm a judge myself (Kochobo Dourado, brazillian contest) and since the past 2 years i saw a lot of mistakes in the contest judges, they are:
- There's 2 people that know whate are doing and one not.
- If they want to put your level down, they will.
- They choose their friends instead of people with experience.

Since the day that one of the VLDC11 judges said to me "This isn't even a level" i quited. I was hurted, for real. I tried my best for a elitist say whatever he wants and nobody cares. Last time, he accused SammuUuU (without evidence) from stealing ideas from another hacker even that my friend don't had played their hacks first. It's ridiculous!

Second, it'k okay to have a opnion and a vision about level design and other things, but as judge and human, you should have sensibility to see that a person like you spend a lot of time doing something that likes. But no, Pyro with all their spite normalizade by their friends can complain because "It's their opnion".

And no, Idol, this is not how it works.
What you are doing is putting the community inside of a bubble of ignorance. You aren't even accepting that Pyro was wrong, you just finding good excuses because she is your friend. Just see all the people affected by for her "opinion", what you gonna say? That they are wrong?

Hell, think with me: you're is a smwhacker too.
Do you believe that receive a "Please don't make level anymore" from a people that should be more experienced is motivating? Are things like that people like me don't even want enjoy contest anymore and i have guts to say: i'm a better judge that all of you.

Well, at least i have sensibility to know that the participants are human and have feelings...

"If you imitate someone, you can never surpass them."
Seeing all this chaos, I can't just ignore and say that everything is fine. It breaks my heart to see people "killing" each other because they took pyro's opinion too seriously and went full rampage. At same time, I think we some glaring issues about how pyro's judging was done . I'm not here to pick sides, but I understand why people were so mad about that. But before going to the 72hoKaizo, there's something that's been bothering for a while.

Like mentioned by The Morganah, Morsel made a commentary about Sammuuu copying someone's else work. Here's the comment that he made in the CLDC:

Originally posted by Morsel
It's another one of those vine races, copied from the ROM hack 'Something else' by yogui; this was not the most inspired twist on the concept, as it is merely used as a timer (in gnarly or kaizo 3 or hyper 6 (the holy trinity) you have to clear the way).

Sammuuu even said that he didn't play yogui's hack, so what is the point of this commentary? As reminder, this isn't the first time that Morsel accuses someone of plagiarizing stuff. We saw something similar with Sariel and Wakana's level at CLDC. This is not a posture that I expect from a judge.

Next time, show proofs of said accusations before pointing fingers to people. I would be very displeased if that accusation was torwards a level I'm making. The community doesn't need more drama and by accusing people without proofs, you'll end upsetting people for no good reason.

Now, the second point I want to make. I'm mostly fine about bringing different judges and having different perspectives put together in a contest. I like and I'll always embrace this idea, but there's a point about level design contests: I expect that judges analyze the levels with a critical mindset. No harsh language, no acid humor, no saltiness. You may ask "why do you demand so much of the judges?"

By making harsh commentaries for people YOU DON'T KNOW, you may make people get away from the community. More important than constructive criticism is the language that you use to communicate your thoughts and ideias. So, if pyro was harsh and gave tons of zero, you shouldn't expect the kaizo community to be happy about that. After all, people only had 72 hours to make levels. How many of you can make a fantastic level in that short period of time? I, for example, take a week to make a good level or more. This why I'm happy to see Atari and Sariel's judging. They knew that people had short time to make stuff, so they didn't went harsh in to them. This is what I expect from a judge. It's being professional, giving constructive feedback and if possible, always encourage people to get better at this hobby.

If you judge a level and say things "this isn't a level", "please stop making levels", don't expect people to open a smile in the face and say "thank you". No, in fact, if a judge made that kind of commentary to a level of mine, I would look at him with scorn.

So, to be clear, I will not tolerate this kind of nasty commentary coming from any judge here. You can be from any important team, I don't care, if you're nasty to someone, I don't see you as human being. Pyro made some very rude commentaries and I don't think that "but she has her opinions" is a valid response.

I get salty a lot playing some hacks. And yet, every time I gave feedback to any hack that I was testing, I thought: "I may be angry, but I need to give constructive criticism to the person and be careful to not sound rude". As Morganah said, we need some sensibility before judging others' people stuff.

Being unnecessary harsh and making comments like "Please don't make a level" will only enrage people even more and I can't believe I saw some of you defending Pyro just because things got out of proportion. Of course it got out of proportion! She said things in that mean tone and was expecting people to be "oh, pyro was harsh, but okay, thanks for judging my level."? Is that what you expected to happen?

For future contests, I would like that judges take in account some things:

- If's a timed contest like a 72 hours level design level, the judgement shouldn't be too harsh.

- Accusing someone of plagiarism or copy is not a thing that should be taken lighty. The accuser must have proofs, otherwise these accusations are like empty words with no value and that will only ends causing more trouble than necessary.

- No rude or unnecessary acid language. While different judges have different opinions, focusing on diminishing levels instead of giving constructive critics will only end causing more problems, so please, avoid that in future contests. The community does not need any more drama. That's not why we do SMW Hacking.

We should be examples and motivate people to continue making levels. Not bashing them and being rude to them. I want the best for this community. That's why I've come back, that's why I helped many people. The SMW Hacking Scene is my second home, it's a hobby that I'm passionate and nothing upsets me more than seeing people making this kind of unnecessary harsh commentary about other levels. I really love this community, that's why I can't be quiet anymore. Judges aren't exempt from any rule, they should try to motivate people or at least, be fair at their criticisms.

And while my words may sound a bit severe, I have to be clear: I have nothing against pyro as a person. I just don't think that her judging was any beneficial to the community. i didn't liked what I read and I think that a lot of her commentaries could be made in ways that didn't sound salty.

Even if it's a friend of mine, I won't tolerate harsh language like that. It's even worse taking account that I don't know how pyro is as person, so for a outsider, she may sound like a hostile person. That's why we should be careful about the tone we use to express our thoughts.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but I'm very sad with all this situation. While their backlash was extreme and unnecessarily aggressive, I don't think pyro was innocent either. Both sides for me are equally wrong in this case. And it saddens me to see people trying to justifing such harsh commentaries as "hey, it's only a contest. life is harsh" .

Anyway, these are my thoughts.

Originally posted by algae5
I don't have any problems with any of the judges for this contest.

My only 2 cents- it actually is potentially problematic (at least from a theoretical standpoint) for there to be differing scoring ranges from judges. For example, if judge A gives every level between 50% to 100% of the possible points, and judge B gives from 0% to 100%, then judge B's personal scoring is worth double the points (assuming point totals are average without weighting, such as in this contest).

Along these lines, one of the things I kinda thought about is comparing the scoring here to the academic grading scale.

The average score Pyro gave was 22.08 out of a possible 60 points — or a 36 on the standard 100-point grading scale (in the U.S. at least). That means that not only did most of the entrants "fail," but failed pretty miserably. In fact, going by academic grading, only 7 entries out of the 50 non-DQed entries got above an F (above 59%) at all. And only 4 of these got 75% or above.

Granted, everything here is water under the bridge at this point; but maybe in the future the judges could come to a closer agreement about the sort of score scaling they're using, and/or what it means to have created an acceptable entry. It's certainly possible that most of us "failed" in our objective to make a viable, worthy level. But I find it a bit unlikely.
I agree that having 72 hours has to be taken in consideration. Scoring 22/60 on average (32 and 39 for the other 2 judges, that's a HUGE gap), it's really not doing that. 72 hours is a short amount of time to create a full level, not even mentioning people having a life and spending maybe 10 hours on said level.
Saying a level is putrid and stuff like that is just awful and will drive people away from the community.
It's your opinion, maybe, but then maybe don't be a judge, because you end up being extremely harsh to some people who just tried to have fun.

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VLDC12 - 72HoKaizo#1
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