Zero Tolerance Approach to Harmful Beliefs and Discrimination - Announcements

Originally posted by Samantha

Originally posted by Naro

Again you guys are just assuming stuff.

We're literally reacting to things you say. Its not an assumption, you just don't want to take responsibility.

Originally posted by Naro

But i dont think each ones personal lives is relevant to anyone other than to themselves, and maybe (big maybe) their close friends or family.

It may not feel that way when you aren't subjected to the kind of bigotry and societal mistreatment minorities have to deal with. No one wants you to feel bad for having that privilege, just acknowledge it exists.

Originally posted by Naro

If i were to say anything about me, im sure some of your arguments would change in a heartbeat..

Don't hold your breath.

Originally posted by Naro

but attaching anyone to any group is the worst thing you can do. And I sure dont want any kind of attachment.

Its worse than being harassed in the street because you look a certain way? Its worse than being called nasty slurs in real life and on social media? Its worse than being assaulted? Grow up.

Originally posted by Naro

I just hope none of my personal choices (granted when im not doing anything intrinsically bad to anyone else) come in to play if i were to be judged.. neither if this 'judgement' favors me

Just say you don't want to be held accountable for the things you say.

Also you're not responding to the core points I or Slash Man have made so this entire post is just you outing yourself as ignorant lmao.

Right.. im just ignorant.. call whatever you want

You win.. you know it all.. you know what my experiences are.. and what i go through.. and of course, you just KNOW i cant relate to anything.. because im just a 'normal' 'perfect' person.. thats kinda nice to know

Originally posted by Spy

This claim sounds rather weird when you just did so yourself on your latest post :

i dont understand.. im just too dumb.
Thats just a known issue. There are psychology studies about that. But people can change that. Its pretty easy.
And I mean, some of the bans and attitudes ive seen can only be explained by 'revenge'. But im probably wrong.. idk..
Ill not get further though.. i hope everybody will be happy sooner than later.

Just remember there isnt just black and white.. theres a whole grey area in between

For the record, lion, Samantha and NaroGugul have been given 24 hours off to calm down, as the argument was quickly turning hostile and falling into petty jabs. Let's keep it civil.

◆ LINKS ▶ Twitter | YouTube | SoundCloud | Fortaleza Reznor
to hear birds and see none.

How such news possibly sparked any arguments at all is genuinely beyond me, especially since the first post specifically said this applied only to cases of bad faith. Like... genuine bigotry literally should not be tolerated, this should just be common sense lmao. I suspect that in cases where it's unclear, the users in question would be approached about it or investigated further before action is taken anyway, so it's not like there's going to be "rampant censorship" or anything. And yeah, if someone's being blatantly awful outside of the site, the mods should still feel justified in banning them here too.

I'm really happy to see this progress, though. If anything I was actually kinda surprised to learn it wasn't already site policy, but I guess I haven't been active enough lately to really tell. And hey, for any baffling "controversy" that's sparked by the newspost, at least that's a way of weeding out the people who would be bound to say horrible stuff eventually anyway.

Synodic Link (webcomic)

Art Thread | My Hack

Tumblr | Twitter | Youtube

Originally posted by Samantha

Yeah that's a better way to put it. I wasn't really sure what to take away from your earlier post coz on the outside it could be interpreted a few different ways.

EDIT because I don't think making a new post is necessary:

Originally posted by leictreon

I want your respect, not your pity

This is basically how we all feel.

These kind of policies treat us as some kind of "endangered species" who needs "special protection" or something. It feels like it's done out of pity more than anything. I mean it's basically standard everywhere, but at the same time it even feels redundant because as far as I'm aware, trolling and being a jerkass were always against the rules. If it makes a lot of people feel better, okay, but don't expect me to applaud that.

i just lurk sometimes

Before I go into this, I should give out a bit of background info before I'm doxxed for having an opinion on the internet: I am a low-class asexual/aromantic atheist. Though, I'd rather not use these labels and instead just view people as people. My friends, one of whom is MTF and the other Aromantic and Black, have this same exact stance mind you.

I am totally fine with expunging legit bigotry as harmful outdated worldviews are, well, harmful and outdated. I have no problem with this whatsoever. My concerns are in the possibility that this could spiral out of control and result in otherwise not bigoted people being falsely labeled as such, y'know, like how extremist communities on Twitter tend to behave. I think it would be wise to not go that far to the point where you'll end up demonizing an entire group because one person of said group wants to be a huge ass. I am also a bit concerned with how things like satire and dark humor overall will be handled. Yes, I am fully aware that you'll have people using the "its a joke nerD" copypastas as a get out of trouble free card, but in some cases it IS just a dumb edgy joke on the internet. Humor IS subjective of course. I mean my two closest friends have a rather dark sense of humor, namely jokes at the expense of spree killers. But if you don't want me to make jokes about Elliot and his lottery tickets, then I understand and I won't do that here. And just so we're clear: None of us think "slur = funny", but rather Eric Andre, for example, isn't automatically racist for making a stereotype joke on his program.
Last concern is that of political prejudice, the thing that makes me afraid to say anything on sites like Twitter for example, despite having views that aren't even remotely right leaning. People on those sites just have this obsession with blowing everything you say out of proportion or trying to over-analyze stuff to find non-existent hidden meanings.
I don't really believe in the stereotypes that all left-wing people are radical terrorists or that all right-wing people are racist nazis. We shouldn't assume that someone falls into those stereotypes because they favor this or that candidate or whatnot.
Overall, I'd like to see everyone get along and co-exist regardless of being a "minority" or "majority" or what have you. We are all the same species and should work towards uniting as one instead of tearing each other down.

Originally posted by leictreon

These kind of policies treat us as some kind of "endangered species" who needs "special protection" or something. It feels like it's done out of pity more than anything. I mean it's basically standard everywhere, but at the same time it even feels redundant because as far as I'm aware, trolling and being a jerkass were always against the rules. If it makes a lot of people feel better, okay, but don't expect me to applaud that.

Honestly this. I just want to be referred to as just a person and not by a bunch of labels. If I was say; shoplifting, I would want the same punishment that anyone else would get. Special treatment makes me feel like a novelty.

Don't eat the sandwich

Originally posted by leictreon

These kind of policies treat us as some kind of "endangered species" who needs "special protection" or something. It feels like it's done out of pity more than anything. I mean it's basically standard everywhere, but at the same time it even feels redundant because as far as I'm aware, trolling and being a jerkass were always against the rules. If it makes a lot of people feel better, okay, but don't expect me to applaud that.

I understand your thoughts on this, however just know that while you may feel a specific way about something (such as this), other people may not feel the same way. I can assure you that the intent of this policy is to not give anyone "special protection" nor pity, or anything else like that, it's merely a reiteration and reinforcement of Rule A3. Also, there's a big difference between just being a jerkass and expressing bigoted beliefs. This was technically something that was always against our rules, but previously we had a lenient response to it; the only difference is that we're reinforcing our stance on this.

Originally posted by RollingRigatonis

My concerns are in the possibility that this could spiral out of control and result in otherwise not bigoted people being falsely labeled as such, y'know, like how extremist communities on Twitter tend to behave. I think it would be wise to not go that far to the point where you'll end up demonizing an entire group because one person of said group wants to be a huge ass.

For what it's worth, we aren't an extremist community on Twitter. That said, we have the entire staff team contributing to this policy (that's well over 50 diverse members of our community!), and we're making it a point to be consistent and fair in our analysis of users who are in violation of Rule A3. I feel like this fear of things spiraling out of control are possibly misplaced, because so long as you aren't violating this rule, there shouldn't really be anything to worry about.

Originally posted by RollingRigatonis

I am also a bit concerned with how things like satire and dark humor overall will be handled. Yes, I am fully aware that you'll have people using the "its a joke nerD" copypastas as a get out of trouble free card, but in some cases it IS just a dumb edgy joke on the internet. Humor IS subjective of course. I mean my two closest friends have a rather dark sense of humor, namely jokes at the expense of spree killers. But if you don't want me to make jokes about Elliot and his lottery tickets, then I understand and I won't do that here. And just so we're clear: None of us think "slur = funny", but rather Eric Andre, for example, isn't automatically racist for making a stereotype joke on his program.

This is a complicated subject and one that we've brought into question ourselves. Generally speaking, as long as what you're saying is not against our rules, it should be fine. But, obviously, if people are making jokes at the expense of a marginalized group of people, that's not cool and is definitely breaking Rule A3. Whether you're part of that marginalized group or not doesn't really make those kinds of jokes an okay thing, no matter what context you put it to. It might just be a better idea to keep jokes like that to yourself and your inner circle?

For the sake of clarity, so long as you aren't actively breaking Rule A3, there shouldn't be anything to worry about. We are not going to be using this policy to censor anyone, and we're going to be making it an effort to analyze each violation as they occur before making a final decision as a group. This is something we (the staff team) are taking extremely seriously and are approaching rationally, and if a problem does arise in the future, people are free to dispute it with us.

Bio.
Twitch.

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

Don't eat the sandwich

No one here is going to make unilateral decisions on a whim. Any incident will be looked at on a case by case basis to determine whether it was intentional or not.

I think a post layout goes here somewhere...

I am single, But I tend to not date anyone for many reasons, But I also want to say that my Mom and I does not mind Gay, Lesbian, Asexual, Bisexual, or other sexual types of people as it's part of culture, and I agree with my Mom,

But my Dad is very old, ten-ish years older than my Mom, is still stuck in the 1950s mindset, where everyone is white, technically part of the KKK movement, and hates/bigots on anyone other than straight people,

That being said, You did the right thing and stuck up to the bigots here, Give them no mercy!!! They deserve servere punishment.

Congratulations.

Most of you in the thread are for the policy (barring aside some nuances, maybe), so as a minority myself I am very thankful. The site at least has been kind to me so I'm not here to call out anyone here.

Honestly, I hate the hypocrisy in people who hate this rule. Again, not that it's anyone on the site, but for a long time I tried to ignore my racial identity and upbringing in an attempt to blend in more easily, and be the person that "doesn't bring up their race" like said before. What happened? People did it anyway. Try finding any other South Asian dude born in 1996 that plays romhacks, let alone also watches hockey, and listens to 80s pop and rock. Odds are, you won't find those. And people let me know that, saying that "I'm unique", except in less savory ways.

If you don't want a conversation about race, sexuality, gender, or anything else, don't start it. If other people are having it, ignore it and scroll on. People who complain about "everything being about race/sexuality/etc" are basically saying that they're offended by other people saying things that aren't offensive.

Wow it was nice reading all those pieces of opinion, even the heated ones.

As matter of fact I researched a define for bigoted since I was unsure what it meant, and got this: obstinately or unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, in particular prejudiced against or antagonistic towards a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group.

so just a friendly reminder that bigoted views can occur in all sorts of topics and "sides" of an argument, not only the ones that are unpopular here or on twitter. I understand it, as zealous expression of ideas, that's done at the cost of respecting basic decency, or any PR.

I will read again rule A3 to be sure where I go from there. //Edit: yeah, I probably am in the clear about it.//

May I add something; I think I could easily be called out on jokes, dank humour, political views, etc, if I wasn't cautious. As I stated before, some things are not too obvious, since by nature I won't be able to do the guesswork of all the userbase's specific pain. I have a hard time self-censoring on some selected political topics that I consider a matter of logic, but I do it for the sake of peace. Being European, I did not understand all that much how painful racial and sexual minority issues can get. Our communication style is way different than the one in North Amrica.

I find it weird sometimes, that assumptions and attacks can be done from things I can say, but I finally got used to it.

In conclusion, I dislike that a bit of a manichean approach is used behind the scenes, some sort of "us vs. them" thinking (only my opinion). But then that's alright, I prefer that, than a place where verbal abuse is the norm and no one feels safe. Even being strongly opinionated, I am not willing to take this special extra mile that makes my fellow netizen suffer. Anyway I cast the wish to make these discussions off-topic in my interactions, for talking my favourite international politic topics, absolutely isn't my main goal on a video game hobby forum.

Good luck yall. I may not know or understand all about the minorty struggles, but so far I was given good technical advice or feedback, and emotional support when I needed it most, and that's what I expect from the relevant discord channels and forums. Whatever may be your private life situations, I value a lot sharing here.

Originally posted by NaroGugul

And I mean, some of the bans and attitudes ive seen can only be explained by 'revenge'. But im probably wrong..

Naro, after all the horrible things marginalized groups of people have experienced, you would know if we were being vengeful. All we want is to feel safe.

I honestly can't tell in what way the rules changed. Looking at how it's worded it's still pretty vague. I think 99% of the time if you just act reasonable it won't be a problem but I agree with the people saying that things like jokes are put in this weird place where they're kind of legal and not at the same time. It's easy to understand the spirit of the rule, but when the rule has such a loose definition it also becomes necessary to understand the spirit of any comment you'd be interested in evaluating based on the rule. I don't think there's a fool proof way to word the rule but it probably could be more clear. Ultimately we're just here for ROM hacking though so unless things get really hostile I don't really care about things like this.

allow shy guy emojis in post footers you cowards!

I’m not sure what you mean when you say the rule is vague, nor do I know how to make it any clearer. Can you elaborate?

Originally posted by Von Fahrenheit

I honestly can't tell in what way the rules changed. Looking at how it's worded it's still pretty vague.

It may seem vague if you're only looking at this thread, but the way it's written in the actual "rules" section is a bit more precise:

Originally posted by The first paragraph in rule A3

Treating users or non-users differently based upon their apparent social, financial or physical class or category, individually or as a group. This includes the use of slurs and the sharing of images or other content with discriminatory messages, implied or otherwise, in earnest or as a joke.

That makes it pretty clear honestly. Even bigoted """jokes""" are frowned upon.

I think the people focusing solely on the in-depth nuances of the rule are overthinking it super hard, to be honest. Just be a decent/accepting/loving/etc human being and I can't imagine that it would ever be a problem. If one of these supposed trickier examples ever occurs then that bridge should be crossed when we come to it, but worrying about it before anything even happens is only gonna create problems that aren't there yet.

Twitter
The handomest people in the world are ones who follow my Twitch

Just wanted to chime in with my support for the Staff on this decision. I'm not hugely active on the forum side of the smwc community, mainly frequenting twitch and twitter, but I appreciate motions like this being put into place nontheless.

There was talk in this thread of this being 'pandering' or 'belittling' but I don't feel that at all. It would only be pandering or belittling if it were an empty motion, with no real intent behind it. Bigotry exists and has claws. Harassment exists and has teeth. It isn't false because you don't experience those things. This just helps protect others who do.

I’ve definitely left one SMW Central a few years back and returned to an entirely different SMW Central, one I am genuinely so much more excited to be a part of. The sheer difference in the way the staff is quick to handle freedom, expression, and identity, as well as the protections of them, is like night and day. I wouldn’t have thought we’d be here a decade ago. When I came out as gay here, I was met with overall positive reactions and support, but now I know for sure that you’re guaranteeing an open space for everyone like us. Props to you guys.

I do trust the staff’s “case by case” approach. People make mistakes, and much of the progressive language nowadays is still relatively new. If you have basic human decency and a sense of accountability, you’re fine. We’re all here to own our past and strive for a better future.

Originally known as A Yoshi (2006-2009), Aquifer (2010-2011), and Azurik (2012-2014).

well, I was going to give more of my thoughts regarding this issue myself, but it seems that most people here have said exactly what I think of this issue (in particular RollingRigatonis and leictreon's comments sum up my thoughts perfectly), but I will say this as well:

basically, I always had a bit of a problem understanding these kinds of things thanks to my family (namely, my dad) not really doing anything to teach me about them and what should I do when it comes to this, and was mostly left on my own to figure things out; tho like I said, my dad in particular was always extremely bigoted in general, so it isn't a surprise that his views on this matter have bled onto my subconscious in some way without ever realizing it until much later... which is why I always had a bit of a inner struggle regarding this and it, as you can tell, has manifested in certain ways that I wouldn't really say is something I'm very proud of to let it happen in the first place, so yeah. that's mostly what I have to say about this issue that hasn't been said before I think :V

Layout by Mathos

Yeah I'm happy to see this happening. Although my hack development is put down indefinitely for various reasons, I would much rather be in a community that is open and tolerant towards others, rather than one that would make light, fun of, belittle or discriminate towards others and overall being crude and disrespectful.

I've in my past been more tolerant of jokes regarding bigotry (i.e. Filthy Frank), but now I've realized that such a thing would only fuel legitimate hate and bigotry, even if such jokes were ironic and all in good fun. Not only that, legitimate bigots would hide behind this, claiming that their jokes are all in good fun, but are in reality a way to express their hate with as minimal backlash and consequences as possible.

I may not have experienced any of SMWC's darker history with it's community, but I do look forward to seeing it make a better change.

Hey y'all, Scott here!

PFP by: https://twitter.com/GinCalico (🔞 Warning)

I seriously respect the site moderators/admins for enforcing this zero-tolerance policy.

"Blasted!"