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What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 » Link - Thread Closed
Originally posted by Ice Man
Hate Kaizo. Never liked it. I just want normal hacks with nice level design, some puzzles, etc.

Kaizo is anything but fun. Should be removed completely and forbidden imo. It ruins the SMW hacking scene.


If you get upset because of a hobby, maybe the problem isn't the community making kaizo, right? Maybe you should rethink and see your priorities. People will do whatever they want, and what their hearts desire, like it or not. Sorry, buddy, we aren't in 2012 anymore.
Oh wow this gained slightly more traction than I thought. Guess I hit a controversial topic, huh :itcantbehelped:

Anyways it's fine if you don't like Kaizo but I've noticed some people here saying they think it's ruined the hacking scene and should be banished from the internet together and uh... yeah that's a little too far :dying:

I think Kaizo has come a long way since it's reputation as "Asshole Mario". I'll quote some things my friend Frazbright said about this

Originally posted by Frazbright
Kaizo hacks are pretty legit these days
Kaizo SMW hacks are more like what you'd expect from precision platformers, with difficult gameplay that's ultimately consistent
They still have a penchant for trolling though.


Originally posted by Frazbright
The original was just a bullshit hard hack
But people refined the formula into something legit


So yeah, like Fraz said, Kaizo hacks have come a long way since the days of the original hack, and are definitely more focused on the player's skill as opposed to just throwing some bullshit at them.

Also, as everyone says, if you don't like them, just filter them out, it's not that hard lmao.
I do wonder if both the Kaizo and normal hackers would benefit from having separate communities. It might help with the feeling of overcrowding, stepping on toes, and one kind getting more attention, and it would mean less stuff to have to filter out constantly.

Also, creative and interesting gimmicks aren't necessarily good or fun, certainly not to everyone. When you think about it, Tubular basically had a unique gimmick too (other levels used the P-balloon, but not for an entire level), and it seems to be fairly universally considered bad. I remember seeing a level once that wasn't even Kaizo, focused on some unorthodox applications of existing enemies (I won't mention any names, but there were a lot of dolphins involved), and it looked absolutely horrendous. These days, wanting to play or design Mario levels that feel like something that could be in an actual Nintendo game actually seems to be frowned on. But then, I personally don't even like hard or very hard normal hacks. I can play and even enjoy some games that are considered more on the difficult side; I've beaten every classic Mega Man game perfectly fine, as well as every Donkey Kong Country game (and even then, the professionals slip up sometimes and create something more irritating than fun or add unnecessary fake difficulty...Mega Man & Bass second fortress stage, or the lack of checkpoints in every secret level of Donkey Kong Country Returns and Tropical Freeze, anyone?). But I really don't think that that kind of strictness and precision suits Mario games, nor do I believe for a minute that many people in a ROM hacking community could pull off professional-quality level design that challenges the player but does so fairly.
Originally posted by imamelia
I do wonder if both the Kaizo and normal hackers would benefit from having separate communities. It might help with the feeling of overcrowding, stepping on toes, and one kind getting more attention, and it would mean less stuff to have to filter out constantly.


I just... really don't see how this is necessary. Even ignoring how they're (at the core) simply different design styles for the same video game from 1990, Kaizo and standard have become inextricably linked, in my view. It's not a bad thing that they draw influence from each other, I think the overlap reinforces the philosophies of each in different ways.

As for the attention bit, I guess all I'd say is a reason standard doesn't get as much attention is because it generally just is not as interesting (to me, at least). If you want people to play and make standard stuff, it's gotta be interesting. There's nothing wrong with having to aim for high standards set by Kaizo: if the genre is to continue to evolve, it must hit this mark.

Frankly it's kind of exhausting reading all of these anti-Kaizo replies, it's saddening to see how much blind hatred people have towards things that aren't for them.
I don't think the ascension of kaizo has anything to do with the decline in interest in standard hacks. If anything, I feel more like without kaizo SMW hacking would still be in the dying state it was at a few years ago.

I really think you guys should stop being this hypocritical and be thankful for kaizo hackers, if only just because a very significant portion of the revolutionary resources that have been coming out recently are being made originally for the sake of kaizo hacks.

idk what else to say at some of you honestly. You just sound like weird old fashioned people that can't let go of older times, and it's not even like anyone's stopping you from keeping doing your thing.

e: I've been missing the good posts. I think Teyla hit the nail on the head with her comment about the state of standard hacks. It's frankly a motivator to me to know I could make a difference in the scene by putting out something well designed, because there truly isn't a lot of it.

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Avatar by Magi!
Originally posted by imamelia
bunch of text


Your notion of difficulty and level design is not the same as mine. You may want to play something that feels like a Nintendo, but the kaizo crowd wants tough platform and cool tricks, while I want tough stuff like Act Raiser 2 and Mega Man & Bass style. Yeah, surreal that "unfair" games have their public, right? Difficulty ain't so objective like one would think. There's people like me who embrace the unfair stuff of older games, the insane difficulty, the platforming, the thrill of the challenge, the pain and reward of beating these games.

Why different styles can't coexist? Why? I have to know what "kaizo people" did so bad. Segregating a community will not solve the issue, but rather create a bigger one.

What do you plan to achieve separating a community that hacks SMW Hacking? By excluding people, you'll make the situation worse. Just because your friend do kaizo, he doesn't deserve to be in this community?

Also, there's a fatal mistake in your logic. Very Hard and kaizo tend to blend and be hard to distinguish at times, so how would you separete "both communities"? Spinjumping in saws, riding torpedo teds, using dolphins for tough platforming aren't inherently kaizo. Anikiti used these in Luigi's Adventure, in certain parts of their hack.

Kaizo for a long time was seen as bad, evil and mean. Now that people have freedom to do their stuff, people decides to yell because "wowwowow, too many kaizo, I don't like". Why?

Instead of that, why you don't question: " why we don't have more standard hacks that stand out? ". If people feel that standard is "dying", so go and make the difference. I just want to be clear that complaining about kaizo will achieve nothing.

A lot of people that I talk to are nice and they make kaizo,so, it's not fair to exclude nice people just because they do a style of hack you dislike. I'm totally opposed at your idea of separating the community.
This is a topic that's been on my mind a lot recently, so I'll use this opportunity to dump my rambling thoughts here, even though this thread is kind of a mess.

It's hard for me to take the few people who are still carrying on the torch of early-2010s kaizo hate seriously. The backlash against kaizo used to be significant years ago, but since then, kaizo hacks have so clearly established themselves as a part of SMW hacking that the remaining detractors just feel amusingly quaint to me. There's no way to stem the tide.

For a bit of context as to where I'm coming from: I've been consistently active in this community since about 2015, so I was around to experience the rise of kaizo as well as some of the period before it. I had a good bit of success making nonkaizo levels for contests and collabs in 2015-2019, but looking back, I feel as though many of them were really just kaizo levels trying their hardest to pass for nonkaizo. I don't look back on those levels very favorably, and I likewise find it weird that this awkward would-be kaizo "jump style" has managed to catch on considerably. Nowadays kaizo is my default design style, and it wasn't until I played SMW: Gaiden recently that I also found a way to properly express myself in a nonkaizo context.

I've come to feel that the current kaizo-centric era is the first time the SMW community has been truly healthy. This is because the kaizo/twitch scene has managed to establish a number of absolutely vital core values for itself: that hacks are meant to be played, that you can watch other people play your hacks, that hacks are (usually) played without tools, and that deaths are an expected part of the experience and not anyone's fault. Everyone there understands these things, and this has allowed for a sense of self-evidence that has never existed in the nonkaizo scene. There are no significant arguments about difficulty and visuals, the contests go well, designers get plenty of feedback, people make ASM that is actually usable for designers - all things the nonkaizo scene has notoriously struggled with. Whether or not you agree with these values, there's no denying that this has allowed the kaizo/twitch scene to flourish. Many incredibly talented people have joined the scene, there's more innovation than ever, and the general appreciation for hacks has managed to encompass many niche works (including ones outside the kaizo genre, such as Gaiden and the Hyper series). Even some of my friends who were initially very sceptical of the streamer craze have since come around to appreciating the diverse environment it has created.

Certainly the kaizo scene has its flaws. Some streamers are impatient and narrow-minded. Designers often fall back on the many design tropes that run rampant in the scene. But I'm counting my blessings, and even if the kaizo style doesn't last, I hope the ethos and the people it has brought in stay.
I honestly do not get the animosity towards kaizo hacks, level design, etc.

It is definitely not my preferred style of hack to play, but things made in that vein are often creative and unique in their own way. It takes away absolutely nothing from standard, and may even help it depending on techniques or glitches being eased down from their harder applications. I also don't mind when a standard hack will have a kaizo technique required for an optional puzzle or shortcut, it creates a great opportunity to learn something without being inaccessible. I definitely do not feel like the two should be separated as communities and the very suggestion of such strikes me heavily as "stop liking what I don't like".

In any case standard still significantly outnumbers the amount of kaizo hacks we host and barring a complete shift away from standard by the community at large, I don't see kaizo ever overtaking it.
I exactly don't care about it. I don't play kaizo hacks and won't do it in the future, so I just ignore anything regarding them and it's fine, I'm aware I'm not the public for them :P

I just don't enjoy playing that kind of levels, regardless if they're the most creative thing in the world or not.


Originally posted by brickblock369
Frankly I'm curious how kaizo style is taking over the abundance of SMW hacks these days. Do people just really like the stunt-like movements of kaizo?

I honestly feel it's more like people know that's whats popular, especially with streamers. People like watching others perform really insane technical feats in a classic game so some try their hand at making their own versions so that maybe their favourite stream will play. Of course this is nowhere near the majority but it is possibly a large reason a lot of people got started with making Kaizo.
Ofc many just enjoy playing Kaizo hacks, but I still don't understand the reason for why it takes up at last 80% of all recently submitted hacks. It's really making SMW Central more of the "Kaizo" central than SMW if you ask me as many normal hacks dont get nearly as much attention as Kaizo, which makes many discouraged further increasing the appearances of Kaizo.

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Originally posted by Anorakun
Instead of that, why you don't question: " why we don't have more standard hacks that stand out? ". If people feel that standard is "dying", so go and make the difference.


I have a pretty straightforward answer to this, it's hard to predict what will be appreciated by the audience or not. Also I believe we've been missing resources on how to do good level design since it's too subjective and what not. Maybe it's a matter of being real committed, but I feel my progress in level design and setups is too slow compared to others.

I always admire the Kaizo prowesses in design because it makes use of the assets, that I couldn't think of. Not the right mindset. It shows that it takes a lot of work.

I grew a bit bitter at myself for not understanding how a good level design is done, and that really is what drives me to enter contests still, although at some moment or another I'll have to face critic. I just hope I can catch up with the general level of skill here.

Also I think one shouldn't take the Kaizo haters too seriously, it's not like they will be able to chase Kaizo away any time soon.

I've liked Lazy's explanations, too. It is true that lot of good assets were created to ease Kaizo setups and then were used in standard romhacks.

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Previously known as Darkslayer (2008-2020)

My video game resume
kaizo isn't for me, but it is for some other people and that's cool i guess

not much more to it than that. it doesn't affect me except in having to filter kaizo:light hacks out when looking for something to play, which, while slightly inconvenient, isn't worth crusading against or even particularly caring about
Kaizo hacks are too hard for me to enjoy, and I don't even attempt to play them. On occasion, I will enjoy viewing someone else play them, but for the most part, it's got nothing at all to do with me, and my personal style of design is almost polar opposite to it (a slow burn with a gradual difficulty curve that starts out almost harmless).

But, Kaizo totally does have its place in the community, I welcome its presence and appreciate what the creators are trying to do. All in all, I find Kaizo to be more interesting than vanilla hacks, as they are attempting to do something different and novel compared to it being another person's take on a format I'm entirely familiar with already.

For sure, we could do without the gatekeeping, and I am 100% in agreeance with the thought that, if you think standard hacks are underrepresented, you have the tools to do something to balance the books.
GANYMEDE

Chapter two: Land of No Shame
Coming January 2022
Kaizo hacks aren't my style and never will be, but if you enjoy it then that's pretty great.
Something I do have a problem with is how, for a lack of a better term, manufactured it is. Go on the SMW Hacks section and click on some of the dozens upon dozens of Kaizo: Light hacks and I gurantee you most of the screenshots are just Mario flying or hopping through a neverending hallway/pit of the cockroach infestation that is Munchers.
I don't like to dog on or criticize people for creating in a specific style, especially one that I don't really understand or even support that much, but at which point does enough become enough?
Help me get the VLDC11 collab fixed and done.


Originally posted by AnEvilGhost
Kaizo hacks aren't my style and never will be, but if you enjoy it then that's pretty great.

This is the strangest thing about kaizo imo
so many people say "I dont enjoy kaizo" or "kaizo just isnt for me" in fact this is the majorities opinion, so who exactly is the audience for kaizo hacks?????
Who is playing them???
If its only a handful of the community that just begs the question of why is there so many different ones

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Originally posted by Rammy
so many people say "I dont enjoy kaizo" or "kaizo just isnt for me" in fact this is the majorities opinion

Majority from what, the forum? The kaizo community is really big, they just don't frequent here a lot.

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Avatar by Magi!


Originally posted by Koopster
Originally posted by Rammy
so many people say "I dont enjoy kaizo" or "kaizo just isnt for me" in fact this is the majorities opinion

Majority from what, the forum? The kaizo community is really big, they just don't frequent here a lot.

Anywhere I go I see the same statements of "kaizo just isn't for me" and what have you, twitch, youtube, discord, etc etc
Maybe im just looking at the wrong places but im not sure

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Originally posted by Rammy
Anywhere I go I see the same statements of "kaizo just isn't for me" and what have you, twitch, youtube, discord, etc etc
Maybe im just looking at the wrong places but im not sure

This thread isn't really an unbiased estimator of people's opinions on kaizo for the SMW community, as Koopster said. Most of the people who respond here are staunchly against Kaizo existing in the same sentence as SMWCentral. I don't really agree with where you're coming from about Twitch specifically, Standard hacks make up an exceedingly small percentage of hacks streamed. I'm not as familiar with YouTube, but as far as I'm aware there are many popular Kaizo mario channels.

Originally posted by Rammy
so many people say "I dont enjoy kaizo" or "kaizo just isnt for me" in fact this is the majorities opinion, so who exactly is the audience for kaizo hacks?????
Who is playing them???
If its only a handful of the community that just begs the question of why is there so many different ones

The only possible explanation for a large supply of kaizo hacks is a large demand for kaizo hacks.
Other than on twitch, kaizo stuff isn't getting that much more attention from what I've seen. The reality of it is on top of romhacking being relatively niche, most hacks will only ever be viewed, not played. On youtube longplay vids of standard hacks rake in the same level of views as most kaizo streamers do, and shit like MM2 vids dwarf both by comparison.

Anyway, I love kaizo hacks, it's basically just the "endpoint" in terms of how demanding a stage can be, I obviously get that most people aren't going to want to get to the level to play them, but the whole beating one's chest over not being able to clear them makes me just ?????

It goes without saying most of the stuff being made at any given time just isn't going to be of very high quality or stuffed with originality. This fact hurts even more for standard from a high level player's point of view, in the sense that at least bad kaizo hacks are still something to fiddle with for a couple hrs and use some random tech, whereas bad standard hacks just feel like a total waste of time except in some extreme cases.

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shirt status: not on
Originally posted by AnEvilGhost

I don't like to dog on or criticize people for creating in a specific style, especially one that I don't really understand or even support that much, but at which point does enough become enough?


At the point when people gets tired for real from kaizo, which will not happen so soon, as long there's some great hacks coming every year. That's a question that I don't get why are you asking. This is a hobby for many of us. And while I don't make kaizo, I'm quite bothered at how people can get so easily scared of seeing kaizo.

It came to a point that I saw people comparing my levels to kaizo, just because of some tight setups. Ignoring if it's tough or not execute a trick or jump. I think it's bad faith comparing tough platforming with kaizo, because, difficult jumps or maneuvers aren't inherently kaizo per se. Older hacks had a lot of these "GODDAMN IT!" moments. So, here's a question for the people who depise kaizo: if I put a saw surfing section in a hack, does it make kaizo? Or if I put a "sprite" gate?

So, where do we draw the line? Very Hard sometimes are way more harder than most recent kaizos, although, for different reasons, obviously. And it's very easy for both very hard and kaizo to blend sometimes.

That's why I find dumb that some people just can't accept the coexistence of standard and kaizo hacks. I find quite funny how when we say "Standard", people often forget about the VERY HARD hacks.
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