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What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?
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I do not support the rising Kaizocon Empire.

I have no problem with Kaizo creators as people, but I feel like their creations are choking out traditional hacks. The Kaizo style may even be bleeding into Standard-difficulty hacks if the prevalence of Very Hard difficulty hacks is any indication. It's even infiltrated non-Kaizo level contests as early as 2017, when I raged out quite a few times at the Kaizo submissions from the first OLDC. Thankfully, it seems like newer non-Kaizo level contests are disallowing Kaizo submissions, which is what I'd do if I were running a level contest. There are, after all, Kaizo contests for the Kaizocons to participate in.

When it comes to allowing Kaizo on the site, I feel that there should be a separate Kaizo Hacks section.

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Quintesson Judge: Silence, or you will be held in contempt of this court!
Hot Rod: I have nothing but contempt for this court!
- Transformers the Movie (1986)
Originally posted by Gamma V
When it comes to allowing Kaizo on the site, I feel that there should be a separate Kaizo Hacks section.

I mean, there is? Kaizo light, hard, and pit exist for a reason. Or do you mean splitting the two up as “SMW Standard Hacks” and “SMW Kaizo Hacks” on the side menu?
Originally posted by Gamma V
long text


A separate Kaizo Hacks Section? So we can segregate people even more and continue this silly "standard vs. kaizo" war that never ends? Sure, what could possibly go wrong, right? I think you do not understand the consequences of this action. By doing that, you'll say that people who makes kaizo can't coexist with people who makes standard hacks. Or it can be way worse...Think, Gamma, think. If kaizo gets a separate hack section, some people will feel that they have special treatment and thus, it will make the situation of standard hacks even worse. Kaizo will be highlighted even more. So, by trying to solve one problem, this would create another, even worse.

Also, could you provide evidence about the prevalence of standard very hacks? I counted here, and there's only, like, 77 Standard Very Hard? Meanwhile, we have 264 Standard Hard, 564 Standard Normal and finally, 218 Standard Easy. As I speak now, there's only one Standard Very in the waiting section, while there's six Standard Hard, two Standard Normal and one Standard Easy. So yeah, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Also, here's another question. Who influenced who first? Standard Very Hard or Kaizo? Saw surfing isn't exclusive to kaizo hacks. Precise jumps are neither.

If you're so worried about Standard Very Hard, they're niche at most. I talk a lot with kaizo people, and they say that most Standard Very Hard hacks are tougher than most kaizo hacks out there. Kaizo is not only about difficulty, but it's a level design philosophy.
Originally posted by Gamma V
When it comes to allowing Kaizo on the site, I feel that there should be a separate Kaizo Hacks section


the search filter is there for that...
Quote
I mean, there is? Kaizo light, hard, and pit exist for a reason. Or do you mean splitting the two up as “SMW Standard Hacks” and “SMW Kaizo Hacks” on the side menu?

I'm pretty sure the latter is what she meant, yeah. Though I personally wouldn't agree with making a change like that either; If you press ctrl+f in the Hacks section and filter out the kaizo or non-kaizo hacks in a search, then the section basically turns into one or the other for you anyway. Same effect.


As for my opinion on the main subject here ... meh. I'm frankly not sure what people expected. As someone who's followed the ROM hacking community in general for many, many moons now, hacking in general has definitely been on a pretty steady decline over the years. I'm not at all surprised that kaizo has been reaching more and more of the public eye over time, since it's the main "genre" of hacks that still consistently has something different to offer than your typical SMW hack†† or even your typical video game in general, meaning that they're still interesting to watch and react to on a Twitch stream or something.

I mean, hell, the vast majority of the ROM hacks I hear friends and non-hackers talk about outside of hacking forums are "novelty" hacks anyway ('the, I Hate You, Mario's Mystery Meat, Radiation's Halloween hack, Pokemon Clover, Chaos CompleXX, automatic levels, graphical re-skins, "improvements"/bugfixes of games, hacks that take a game and slightly alter the levels to make them harder, etc etc etc). ROM hacking at its core mainly appeals to people in a novel sense, since ROM hacking itself is/was a fairly novel concept. Most people who are truly interested in playing an actual, serious game aren't going to come to a site like this; they'll play whatever was made by their favorite game companies, or play some homebrew / indie game. Most people who are interested in seeing fun corruptions of Mario-style levels will either go for something in Mario Maker, or will look for more "silly" hacks that usually don't get accepted on a site like this anyways. "Ridiculously hard" hacks satiate this need well enough for a lot of people.

tl;dr: The fact that kaizo is becoming more popular nowadays is completely natural and should have been seen coming a long time ago, and there's nothing SMWC can or should do about it anyway.

...

Kaizo hacks usually aren't necessarily my favorite hacks either, but I play them from time to time if I'm feeling bored and hate myself one fine afternoon. They can be pretty fun if you're patient enough, so the outright hostile attitude that some people have towards the very concept of kaizo just baffles me.

††Yeah yeah, people usually try to counter this point by mentioning hacks like A Plumber for All Seasons and Ganymede, but it should be kept in mind that extremely-high effort, professional hacks like this that basically reinvent the original game are pretty rare and are more of an exception rather than the rule.

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Yeah, I suppose you guys are right about that. Maybe I'm just a bit old-fashioned...or just plain old. 37 is pretty old for an SMW hacker. Either way, Kaizo just isn't my thing. I'm a Standardbot (Ugh...that doesn't sound as cool as Kaizocon. Transformer Reference Fail!)

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Quintesson Judge: Silence, or you will be held in contempt of this court!
Hot Rod: I have nothing but contempt for this court!
- Transformers the Movie (1986)
Hello,

I've now read the whole thing and honestly I'm surprised that (some) people tend to separate the categories and choose one side.
Personally, I see myself on both sides as I enjoy playing standard hacks as well as kaizo hacks. There is no good reason why the different genres can't coexist successfully side by side (at least I can't see a single one).
To be honest, I am pretty disgusted by the reaction in this forum.

As you may see by my stats I'm relatively new and don't participate too much in the forums. My main passion is exploring all the Music ports this community makes.

I come mostly from a fan of watching Kaizo on twitch / youtube and dabbled in some of it myself (unsuccessfully). One thing I always loved about it was how inclusive and positive everyone seemed to be (among the twitch community at least).

I'm disappointed to find this forum pretty toxic. Why are people insulting and saying (abridged) "there's no room for you [kaizo fans] in this forum, you need your own space".

Like aren't we all here because we love Mario and the creativity of the community? Why would anyone suggest limiting this? It'd be the same as me saying "Standard hacks shouldn't show its face cause I don't follow it". It's absurd.

Honestly some of you should really be ashamed of your posts to this thread.
Originally posted by socool111
I'm disappointed to find this forum pretty toxic. Why are people insulting and saying (abridged) "there's no room for you [kaizo fans] in this forum, you need your own space".

I don't think most people arguing against kaizo are necessarily toxic. In the same vein, you shouldn't generalize an entire forum over misconceptions others have with the inclusion of kaizo, especially since they have already been sufficiently rebuked countless times in this thread alone.
Originally posted by socool111
I'm disappointed to find this forum pretty toxic. Why are people insulting and saying (abridged) "there's no room for you [kaizo fans] in this forum, you need your own space".


Interestingly enough, I've seen an old reddit post from 2015 or 2017 from a person claiming that smwcentral was ableist because Kaizo requires quick reaction and thinking. So both Kaizo and anti-Kaizo are toxic if we go in both these logics, there's no way out of it, right?

As stated in my previous comment, there's no use in berating a vocal, small anti-Kaizo minority. I'm pretty sure the administration of the community has been pretty clear already, that no segregation will be done, not now and not ever.

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Previously known as Darkslayer (2008-2020)

My video game resume
I can see why one would be displeased by seeing what happened this thread, but if you look back, it all was no more than 4 people saying silly stuff like that. They just got each heavily responded to which made it seem like a huge deal, but they're a certain minority.

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Avatar by Magi!
Originally posted by qantuum
Interestingly enough, I've seen an old reddit post from 2015 or 2017 from a person claiming that smwcentral was ableist because Kaizo requires quick reaction and thinking. So both Kaizo and anti-Kaizo are toxic if we go in both these logics, there's no way out of it, right?
In that vein, most of gaming is ableist because if you don't have quick reaction time and pin-point accuracy, you're going to lose. It all simply falls to "Get Good", if you can't, then tough, figure out something else.

Over all, it's a pretty stupid argument all things considered. People should be able to make what they want to make barring certain guidelines are followed. Filter exists, if a person is too lazy to use the filtering system, I don't know what else to say.
I blame twitch streamers. I hate kaizo for non-difficulty reasons. I actually enjoy more harder hacks (not too hard), my reason for hating it, is aesthetics.

I don't like the aesthetic of how kaizo levels are constructed, they look like rube goldberg machines, with all the upside down bridge railing blocks all over.

Havent played many so maybe there's some that don't look like this, but most I see seem to fit this description. I'm also just a contrarian, and dont like it cause it's popular
i'm a contrarian contrarian, and love kaizo because other people hate kaizo because other people love kaizo

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this thread is funny


kaizo hacks are literally only popular because of a few things:

- they can be tough to figure out
- they take a while to complete
- they test the abilities of the player

because of this, they are top-tier content for streaming; a streamer usually won't run out of content for a good few hours if it's a difficult project, which is good for reactions or just displays of skill

usually kaizo hacks aren't plot-heavy either, which means they aren't filled with the awkward, poorly written fanfiction people usually throw into otherwise mundane hacks

it's like watching an action movie over something more plot-heavy, solely because it's cool and full of explosions

if you're against kaizo hacks being increasingly popular, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. why aren't you putting out an interesting, non-kaizo hack?


that being said, i don't play kaizo hacks because i have no interest in them
i also don't play "normal" hacks because they are usually not interesting or i get weirded out by an awkwardly written plot



Originally posted by Sonikku
this thread is funny


kaizo hacks are literally only popular because of a few things:

- they can be tough to figure out
- they take a while to complete
- they test the abilities of the player

because of this, they are top-tier content for streaming; a streamer usually won't run out of content for a good few hours if it's a difficult project, which is good for reactions or just displays of skill

usually kaizo hacks aren't plot-heavy either, which means they aren't filled with the awkward, poorly written fanfiction people usually throw into otherwise mundane hacks

it's like watching an action movie over something more plot-heavy, solely because it's cool and full of explosions

if you're against kaizo hacks being increasingly popular, then you have nobody to blame but yourself. why aren't you putting out an interesting, non-kaizo hack?


that being said, i don't play kaizo hacks because i have no interest in them
i also don't play "normal" hacks because they are usually not interesting or i get weirded out by an awkwardly written plot



Maybe you're expecting too much when comparing hacks to movies,eh?

Remember that this is a hobby. If you don't like, why you get so upset about it? Instead of criticizing other people for the sake of criticizing, why don't you try to write some before calling them "poorly written fanfiction"? People have no moral obligation of writing good lores or learn to be writers. They can write wherever they want. The important thing will always be the levels and how it feels to play a hack. Lore is just a presentation thing.
I would personally love to see more hackers attempt to insert narrative elements and original stories and characters into their works.
GANYMEDE

Chapter two: Land of No Shame
Coming January 2022
Regarding writing/lore: One thing I've learned in my 10 years of being on this site is don't be a writer if you're going to hack SMW; unless you're a very popular and accepted individual, it's best to just stick with making levels and going elsewhere if you're looking to write a story in a platformer. Plot/Story in an SMW Hack is a very niche thing, you'd be better off not inserting it unless you're looking to be the subject of mockery and insults for the rest of your stay here. Just don't do it. There's tons of other places/communities that exist for writing purposes, and your writing will be more appreciated there.

Keep in mind that a majority of the people who enjoy Kaizo probably are not even active on this forum nor care to be active; they just come in, download their hacks, play/stream and go to the next one. There's tons of people who enjoy traditional hacks too, I'm looking in the section's WTBM section right now and I see a healthy mixture of Standard and Kaizo, nothing is dying out. The people that absolutely want Kaizo out of their searches when looking for hacks, the hotkey Ctrl+F exists, it's much quicker and easier than clicking the filters button. That will filter out what you don't want in less than two seconds.
Originally posted by Anorakun
Maybe you're expecting too much when comparing hacks to movies,eh?

Remember that this is a hobby. If you don't like, why you get so upset about it? Instead of criticizing other people for the sake of criticizing, why don't you try to write some before calling them "poorly written fanfiction"? People have no moral obligation of writing good lores or learn to be writers. They can write wherever they want. The important thing will always be the levels and how it feels to play a hack. Lore is just a presentation thing.


at the risk of sounding elitist -- i'm hardly expecting anything from a site of genuine amateurs doing something as a hobby

if plot is the emphasis of the hack that's fine, but if i'm playing it, and the cutscenes take a front seat and won't let me skip them, then i immediately lose interest. if i feel my time is being wasted i won't hesitate to stop playing it immediately.

if you're going to force me to sit through cutscenes or dialog, at least make the story interesting. it's mario, it doesn't need some deep plot where mario ponders the meaning of his quest or meets with sages from the Land Of Ancients™ to discuss how bowser is going to nuke florida or something


actually on second thought that'd be a plot i would actually be interested in, so there we go. finally, a mario fan plot i can be interested in. it'd even fit with the snes era's weird "trying to partly push mario into the real world" with the cartoon, mario is missing, mario's time machine, etc.



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