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What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 » Link - Thread Closed
Originally posted by Sonikku
Originally posted by Anorakun
Maybe you're expecting too much when comparing hacks to movies,eh?

Remember that this is a hobby. If you don't like, why you get so upset about it? Instead of criticizing other people for the sake of criticizing, why don't you try to write some before calling them "poorly written fanfiction"? People have no moral obligation of writing good lores or learn to be writers. They can write wherever they want. The important thing will always be the levels and how it feels to play a hack. Lore is just a presentation thing.


at the risk of sounding elitist -- i'm hardly expecting anything from a site of genuine amateurs doing something as a hobby

if plot is the emphasis of the hack that's fine, but if i'm playing it, and the cutscenes take a front seat and won't let me skip them, then i immediately lose interest. if i feel my time is being wasted i won't hesitate to stop playing it immediately.

if you're going to force me to sit through cutscenes or dialog, at least make the story interesting. it's mario, it doesn't need some deep plot where mario ponders the meaning of his quest or meets with sages from the Land Of Ancientsā„¢ to discuss how bowser is going to nuke florida or something


actually on second thought that'd be a plot i would actually be interested in, so there we go. finally, a mario fan plot i can be interested in. it'd even fit with the snes era's weird "trying to partly push mario into the real world" with the cartoon, mario is missing, mario's time machine, etc.


I dont disagree with your post either when it comes to expecting anything from geniune amaeteurs doing something as a hobby and that the plot of ROM-Hacks should be written well, but I don't think that a SMW hack needs to necessarily conform to the in-universe rules and themes Nintendo sets with their creations...hell any fangame or ROM-hack of any IP should be free to deviate from the source material and shouldnt be judged badly for that because we arent constrained by said rules of said source materials.

--------------------
On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.




It's not really about conforming to Nintendo's standards for Mario so much as seeing cutscenes/storytelling as an unnecessary part of the experience. Which, personally, I tend to agree with, since there are better outlets for storytelling than ROM hacking old Mario games and I don't expect many people to really go for that. (And personally I don't really need story-heavy platformer games.)
Originally posted by DeppySlide
It's not really about conforming to Nintendo's standards for Mario so much as seeing cutscenes/storytelling as an unnecessary part of the experience. Which, personally, I tend to agree with, since there are better outlets for storytelling than ROM hacking old Mario games and I don't expect many people to really go for that. (And personally I don't really need story-heavy platformer games.)


You say that but from experience ive seen that on people seeing storytelling as unnecessary be paired up with the fact that those same people say that "It's a Mario hack" or variation thereof, as a reason to just criticize the plot being bad and not play the hack because of the hack having storytelling elements that goes beyond what the fans accept of what Nintendo establishes for Mario whether or not the writing is good or bad independent of it. That's a bit discouraging for those who want and like not having to be constrained by the official canon setting and established rules and themes Mario (and other IPs) has.

--------------------
On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.




Honest question: what makes an interesting lore for you: something more action paced? Perhaps a well written terror story? Perhaps a light-hearted adventure? Do you see the issue with defining "what makes a good lore"? Do you understand that it's a subjective matter?

I don't get why some of you are just like "eew lore". What if I want to make a lore? Do you think I would be afraid because of a bunch of randoms talking mad shit about what I wrote in a freaking hobby? The hell no! Just because of that, I'm more motivated as ever to not even let players skip the lore.

If people can't do kaizo because "bubububu it's killing standard", neither lore because "it's mario", what they can do, then? Just let people write their silly ideas, it's simple. Just as kaizo can coexist with standard, so can hacks with lore coexist with hacks that focus in Mario rescuing Peach for the 10203929392 time.
I don't know exactly what makes a good lore, I know what kind of lore I'm interested in, really I just like the idea of shooting for a goal or end game, not just randomly playing levels with no goal in sight other than "Complete everything". I like the idea of saving a princess or maybe stopping a super villain from taking over the world, something like that. Personally I love lore, though I just don't think this is the website to do it. I also feel like lore helps with setting up some very interesting locales or even helps you with coming up with settings/ideas that you normally would not have come up with.

Originally posted by Anorakun
Do you think I would be afraid because of a bunch of randoms talking mad shit about what I wrote in a freaking hobby?
It's basically putting up with 10+ years of this that has discouraged me from sharing any more of my works, at least on this site. I mean ye, back when I first started, my writing was shit, but I'm a much better writer now and I feel as if that wouldn't have been the case without doing it here; doesn't mean it will be accepted beyond a niche, non-vocal community.
I understand that nobody really wants to sit through cutscenes, pretty much ever (especially if it's more than once). There are ways to integrate story into this game that don't make the player sit on their hands. My hack is as story-heavy as any hack out there, but after the very first screen in the game, it's virtually 100% interactive and you have total control over the pacing. There are no static cutscenes, no message boxes, and no pauses in the action.

Quote
It's basically putting up with 10+ years of this that has discouraged me from sharing any more of my works, at least on this site. I mean ye, back when I first started, my writing was shit, but I'm a much better writer now and I feel as if that wouldn't have been the case without doing it here; doesn't mean it will be accepted beyond a niche, non-vocal community.


Ultimately, you should make what you want to make, you're doing it for yourself first. If you make something that you enjoy when you play, it's likely other people will enjoy it, as well.
GANYMEDE

Chapter two: Land of No Shame
Coming January 2022
Originally posted by Lazy
.


Bravo. Very well-said and insightful.

I think that in a way kaizo as a design style is inevitable because as the scene evolves, people want to do something new and creative with their hacks. They want to make a new experience or use a new gimmick. This leads to designing in such a way that the player is forced to do something very specific, something odd. And then munchers sprout up everywhere to punish anything unintended. And then this method of forcing a certain intention to create a new experience is labelled as kaizo.

This explains Twitch streams, which try to create constant variety within a certain interest. It also explains how entries to non-kaizo contests have hallmarks of kaizo design style, because creativity is a major part of scoring.

The next evolution is reincorporating elements of standard hacks into kaizo. Honestly I think this is a more fruitful topic of conversation. Many kaizo designers that want to create "standard" hacks don't understand that standard hacks have an audience, a skill set, a mentality, and a community.

I am guilty of this myself. I have come to see that players that don't like kaizo are justified in asking that these "standard hacks" by kaizo designers are not really passed off as true standard hacks. The overall experience and mentality is quite different. Kaizo has what Lazy calls an "ethos".

I would summarize this ethos as "git gud." (This is just my interpretation of what the kaizo ethos is.) Kaizo players will put up with an extraordinary amount, and standard players will rather demand that designers conform to their desired experience. Neither is really wrong, but there is a chasm between them.

Nevertheless, many of these hacks are being worked on, and there are a lot of opinions about how much kaizo someone has tolerance for if they don't play kaizo at all. Comically, the amount is ~10% of what many kaizo designers think.

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NewPointless
Kaizo still suck not is it great anyway#wario{>:(}
Originally posted by Mohamad20ZX
Kaizo still suck not is it great anyway#wario{>:(}


You have your opinions as do everyone else. Can just filter it out and not play them as im sure you are already doing. This thread has already soured people because some of y'all take it too far.

--------------------
On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.




This thread has gone way past the point of having actual any kind of constructive debate. Whether you like it or not, kaizo is here to stay. If you don't like kaizo hacks, don't make/play and go make/play stuff you do like. If you do like kaizo hacks, cool - enjoy them. Do your own thing and don't shit on someone else's hobby because you don't like/agree with it - that's just disrespectful.

End of the "I don't like kaizo" discussion. Thread closed.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 » Link - Thread Closed
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - What exactly do most people here think of the abundance of Kaizo hacks these days?

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