Language…
24 users online:  Ayami, BSideTartarus, BunBunAshly, CODEHEX4EVER, ElpoderosoBv,  Fernap, FrozenQuills, FYRE150, JupiHornet, Knetog, Knight of Time, LucasRCD, MarioMMaster, MarkVD100, MarsAmpere, ModernKiwi, ocked, Raufaser, Ringo, RollingRigatonis, Shining Hero, WhiteYoshiEgg, will___, Zavok - Guests: 108 - Bots: 117
Users: 54,921 (2,080 active)
Latest user: The_Minecraft_Furry

Kaizo hacks & Traditional hacks - what keeps you away from the other side?

  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2
Okay, maybe the title's meaning is a bit hard to understand so here goes an explanation:

For the creators/players that prefer traditional/casual dificulty hacks what keeps you away from liking kaizo hacks? what traditional hacks usually offers over them? what improvements could be done for you to enjoy them despite their dificulty?

And for the players that prefer kaizo hacks what keeps you away from liking traditional dificulty hacks? and what are the advantages of making/playing kaizo over a traditional hack? what improvements could be done on a traditional hack for you to enjoy them more?

EDIT: This topic is not meant to be a discussion or a dispute over which is better, its more like a exchange of information on what one style could learn from the other and vice versa.

---------------------------------
My perspective:
As a player I prefer Traditional hacks because of the curve of dificulty and the lack of "troll obstacles", you always receive a fair challenge and a well designed game teaches the player all he needs to know by the time the player reaches the end and attempt his most dificulty challenges.
Now outside of hacks I can give an example of a game that basically has the "kaizo" dificulty but does these two things right and that game is Celeste, it dont start exactly on a kaizo dificulty of challenge but it does eventually ramp up to that, however during the course of the game it slowly ramps up to builds the player's skills and teaches him everything he will need to know for the brutal challenges that will come eventually.
As a creator I prefer them because of acessibility for more players to enjoy the hack and not everyone will have the skill needed for a kaizo hack, however recently I have been curious on creating a "rage game styled" hack myself with inspiration on games like Celeste and Super Meat boy.
standard is simply less interesting to me and i see no issue with liking one more than the other


i love this little lego guy so much



Never been a fan of the more "trial-and-error" esque gameplay of Kaizo, personally. Standard at least lets me have some wiggle room when playing (most of the time).

I will say, I'm also not a fan of how many Kaizo hacks look same-y nowadays. I get that it's much easier to make a Kaizo hack compared to standard, but Jesus! I swear some people are just making kaizo hacks as a means of getting clout from Twitch streamers rather than unleashing their own creativity for a hack. It's why when I heard that SMWC got 200+ Kaizo hacks, I found that to be very suspicious.

These are just my thoughts though, and I'm aware I'm somewhat old-schooled, so take my opinions with a grain of salt.


LinksTwitterDiscordYouTubeSteamTwitch


Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

I lack the patience the typical Kaizo levels require. I'll watch them being played by someone else (if the videos are reasonably edited), but I'll pass on playing them myself.

In general, every kaizo I tried has been only frustrating and not fun for me. I don't like repeating thing I've already done, specially if it's a section I've already passed but need to keep passing because I died in another section just after. And the need for surgical precision in certain setups gets annoying very fast.
I like normal hacks because they are suitable for the player's
I like creating kaizo, even though I have the urge to break my keyboard into pieces sometimes, but that's just how it is. I tried creating traditional hacks in the past, and a few contest entries came out of that. However, I no longer have the motivation and inspiration to go beyond that, and truly intricate hacks are more my thing, after all.

As for playing, I prefer traditional over kaizo. Now, that's not to say I don't enjoy kaizo hacks, but I stand with Hooded Edge in that the big majority of our recent kaizo hacks look and play the same (I could cite Ultra Star bootlegs as something I'm seeing very often). Of course, there are exceptions, but the staleness is bewildering.
It isn't that I keep away from Kaizo level. However, I am bad at creating them, preferring the more open endedness of romp levels. In particular, creating set ups, as much as I have fun playing them, is difficult for me so don't expect to see them very often in my levels (I think my CLDC 2020 entry is my non-Kaizo level with the most set ups).
In contrast, romp levels are open ended in the way that you don't have think of set ups very hard but rather allows you to put fillers into the level. In addition, Kaizo levels are very linear and don't allow for much freedom. Secrets are only handled with split paths i.e. a secret exit route.

In contrast, playing them is a different story and I can beat the one or another Kaizo level without savestates and have fun with them. Maybe not necessarily Kaizo: Intermediate (or at least, I think it's so-lala with them) but I definitively have beaten some of YUMP 2's Kaizo levels as well as KLDC 2021 entries without savestates.
That doesn't mean I am against traditional levels, which I do play from time to time, particularly the contests. In fact, I'd even say that I prefer romp over Kaizo.

Speaking of contests: I think this is where I play the most levels nowadays (and create them too, considering my showoff history). I used to play and create hacks much more often (particularly pre-registration) but nowadays, I have got more fun to work on resources for others or build a single level than create a whole hack.
Most of the kaizo that gets made falls into a meta that's very boring and uninteresting to me, but occasional hacks and contest levels can be out of the box enough to make me want to play them. Incidentally, those more creative levels are generally way harder than average. While I'm not so skilled, I discovered I'm an extremely patient player, so I can grind out stuff for hours and I have a great time doing so.

Similarly, I don't enjoy most standard stuff that gets made. The difference is that here it's not about a boring meta, but rather most people just can't do good level design. Cleverly designed levels feel really great to play, and I personally love the less segmented and more platforming-based types. I also occasionally enjoy silly, VIP-like levels, but it's a not an easy vibe to get right.

So I guess those are the things that keep me away from both sides. I feel like what I enjoy playing are the exceptions.
For me Kaizo hacks dont interest me because they tend to be a lot of trial and error and like Edge said, not wiggle room for any other different strategy.

They make me think its like a platform version of Dragon's Lair (referring to the arcade version!). Its pretty cool when you can beat the level in one go, but you learn that by trying over and over again and then you get to the next level and surprise! More trial and error now with a fresh coat of paint!

There are some exceptions of course, The JUMP series and YUMP 2 comes to mind, like Cape Fear but those are a rarity to me.

I'll always go for a classic hack, maybe its me playing romhacks for over 10 years, but I dunno, I just like em, that and I feel they can offer a lot more variety, at least the better ones. This might sound weird but I feel a traditional difficult hack can be much more challenging than Kaizo one.
Kaizo back in the day was seen as unfair and bad level design which while that did kept me away from playing Kaizo hacks for the longest time, Kaizo hacks have come a long way because people have made some geniunely creative things over there that you can't really say with the Kaizo hacks of old. What keeps me away from Kaizo currently is the grind that is unlike what you see in Standard: Hard and Very Hard hacks.

With hard standard hacks, the grind is there but nowhere near to the degree of spending 15 to 30+ minutes on a single level back-to-back to complete in order to progress onward with the hack, and that is something that exists in any given Kaizo hack hosted in this very community. Standard, in comparison generally has levels that you can clear in far less time because you do have to play levels that take under 2 minutes to clear in a single run because the levels generally do not tend to stay consistently Hard or Very Hard across every level or world in any given Standard hack and do not have the properties seen in a Kaizo level (standard levels arent strict with intent, do not have short windows of time to clear for moving obstacles, arent precise and usually arent unforgiving). Even in Standard: Very Hard hacks exist both early and midgame levels are not an exception to this - they too, have easier levels interspersed with the hard grindy ones, and I can list a few of such hacks that have easy levels in them taking place in such areas (e.g. any given full-length levelengine and Anikiti hack, TSRP(R) and 2(R)).

Rather, the grind that exists in standard hacks I find tend to be levels in end-world castles or other fortified place, and in late and/or postgame areas, and final levels. The grind in those examples I list are discrete and end with those levels. You do not generally expect an immediate level after that tend to be as grindy or more than the last in a standard hack whereas for Kaizo, you do and that is a norm per how what a Kaizo level is defined as according to BeeKay's "What is Kaizo?" document.

What this can be reduced to as a TL;DR is that I simply do not have the time and patience to grind out for that long with levels back-to-back that require the dedication to spend that time to learn it, which is what Kaizo hacks requires by the nature of what Kaizo is, that standard hacks generally doesn't require outside of their hardest and most brutal levels.
On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.




I know that I'm going to sound like a condescending douchebag, but, I think a lot of the standard stuff tries to replicate too much of Vanilla SMW, and I don't think that it really works that well, the appeal of Vanilla was that it was a game you bought and you played it sparringly and the game was all about finding the secrets. Today, platforming has gone a long way, and if you don't do exploration in a completely new and unique way and just do the same things SMW did, I personally feel like it's simply not worth my time.

Even then, I gotta say some kaizos do fall for the pitfalls of trying to replicate something else in a way that feels completely rehashed, not giving it an interesting twist or anything.

They all become just like Garfield strips: same poses, same structure, same characters, same underwhelming punchlines.
Originally posted by bandicoot
For the creators/players that prefer traditional/casual dificulty hacks what keeps you away from liking kaizo hacks?

The extreme difficulty and strictness, the trial-and-error gameplay, having to keep redoing sections over and over, and the reliance on glitches and unintended behavior.

Originally posted by bandicoot
what traditional hacks usually offers over them?

Actually being reasonable. And sometimes, they still aren't because ROM hackers have a very skewed idea of difficulty compared to most people. I feel like if Mega Man & Bass got accepted into the hack section, it would be considered "Standard: Normal" difficulty. Also, it seems like Kaizo hacks don't use nearly as many custom assets as most traditional hacks do.

Originally posted by bandicoot
what improvements could be done for you to enjoy them despite their dificulty?

Well, people could pay me to play them, like maybe at least $30 per hour. Okay, I still wouldn't enjoy them, but at least then they'd be earning me money that I could spend on something that I would enjoy.

----------------

I'm working on a hack! Check it out here.
Originally posted by "imamelia"
Stuff


Very skewed idea of difficulty? Also, what Mega Man & Bass has to do with skewed vision of difficulty? What if someone likes it? What it has to do with their rom hacks? I'm failing to see a connection.

Also, are you implying that Hacks Mods aren't doing their job?

And while kaizo hacks doesn't use many graphics, they do use a lot of custom music and sometimes, custom asm.

Also, asking people for money isn't something I would call improvement, but rather pure selfishness. Are you sure that you aren't the one with skewed morals here, buddy? People test stuff for free and you want to be the cool guy that charges money for something you don't like and that benefits only you? If you aren't happy with the community, just leave, instead of pestering people with such passive-aggressive comments.
Originally posted by Anorakun
Very skewed idea of difficulty? Also, what Mega Man & Bass has to do with skewed vision of difficulty? What if someone likes it? What it has to do with their rom hacks? I'm failing to see a connection.

Also, are you implying that Hacks Mods aren't doing their job?

My point is that the standards for difficulty in ROM hacks seem to be skewed more toward the higher end than for other games. Mega Man & Bass is considered quite a difficult game, but it doesn't seem like its difficulty would even be noteworthy compared to most ROM hacks.

Originally posted by Anorakun
Also, asking people for money isn't something I would call improvement, but rather pure selfishness. Are you sure that you aren't the one with skewed morals here, buddy? People test stuff for free and you want to be the cool guy that charges money for something you don't like and that benefits only you? If you aren't happy with the community, just leave, instead of pestering people with such passive-aggressive comments.

He asked what would have to be done for people who prefer standard hacks to play Kaizo hacks, and I gave my reply.

----------------

I'm working on a hack! Check it out here.
Guys calm down please, lets remain on a civil discussion here #smw{-_-2}

Originally posted by Anorakun

Very skewed idea of difficulty? Also, what Mega Man & Bass has to do with skewed vision of difficulty? What if someone likes it? What it has to do with their rom hacks? I'm failing to see a connection.
Also, are you implying that Hacks Mods aren't doing their job?


It was just an example Anorakun, he meant that if Mega Man & bass was a smw hack its possible that its author would classify it as Normal dificulty and being honest I agree, because I actually made this mistake in the past and mods had to correct the tags I put in them at the time.
Also he didnt even mention the mods.

Originally posted by Imamelia

Well, people could pay me to play them, like maybe at least $30 per hour. Okay, I still wouldn't enjoy them, but at least then they'd be earning me money that I could spend on something that I would enjoy.

I meant what could be done in the game itselt to improve it, even if someone paid me to play Bubsy 3D, I would still consider it a bad game, however if the devs at least did something and improved the game itself then it could become a better game.
I think the same could be done in smw-hacks however you did touch on something that is actually helpful

Originally posted by Imammelia
The extreme difficulty and strictness, the trial-and-error gameplay, having to keep redoing sections over and over, and the reliance on glitches and unintended behavior.

Having to redo sections is part of the course in kaizo, the thing that could be done here is minimizing the punishment for dying in those hacks(retry system patch is great for this), however if the other things could be toned down a bit I think its possible for a kaizo to be enjoyable for Traditional hack players.
For example the glitches and unintended behaviour could be taught to the player via the level design or text boxes around the level, the trial and error could be avoided by offering a fair level design which is my main complaint on kaizo, I hate dying to troll invisible blocks or other unpredictable traps or being softlocked because I couldnt guess that the item provided earlier was needed for progress and there's no way to reset.
If I need to die 5000 times to beat a game I'm okay with it as long as the majority of these are my fault instead of faulty game design.
Originally posted by bandicoot
I meant what could be done in the game itselt to improve it, even if someone paid me to play Bubsy 3D, I would still consider it a bad game, however if the devs at least did something and improved the game itself then it could become a better game.
I think the same could be done in smw-hacks however you did touch on something that is actually helpful

Well then, I don't think there is such a thing. I feel like to make them appeal to me, the creators would have to change so much about them that they would no longer qualify as Kaizo. I don't even like the hard difficulty standard hacks.

----------------

I'm working on a hack! Check it out here.
Originally posted by imamelia

My point is that the standards for difficulty in ROM hacks seem to be skewed more toward the higher end than for other games.

I feel like this is at least partially because ROM hacks for SMW (and Mario games, or other platformers in particular) are made by people who have played the everloving tar out of platformers in general, and have gotten quite good at them. I think actually making an 'easier' level can be kind of hard as its easy to blitz through a level you made yourself as you know everything about it, you kind of need a feedback loop from other people to properly tune the difficulty.

More on topic, I guess I'm kind of in the same boat as imamelia, but probably not as strongly. The sort of changes you'd need for me to really like most kaizo hacks would probably make them not so. Kaizo, to me, feels like weird trial-and-error platformer puzzling (where the puzzles place a large emphasis on your dexterity rather than using your brain like traditional puzzles) than playing an actual platformer, and I don't really find it all that appealing. Some of the requisite entry level tricks (such as shelljumps) are very hard to pull of consistently unless you've practiced them a ton, too.
The reason why I tend to play kaizo hacks a lot more than standard hacks has less to do with difficulty and more with how cleverly the level design is thought out in terms of obstacle placements. Many standard hacks take the sandbox approach of having lengthy sections full of enemies placed in seemingly random positions. I have a preference for games where individual elements generally make sense within an environment and are there for a reason, whether it be logic puzzle games or execution-heavy kaizo hacks.

Similarly, when it comes to the pure level design I've always preferred the Donkey Kong Country series over vanilla SMW *dodges eggs and tomatoes*. SMW has a very rich engine with a ton of different types of sprites, blocks, interactions, hidden mechanics, etc. A good bit of the fun that's to be had with vanilla SMW is about discovering all of this, kind of like exploring an open-world environment or figuring out all the inner mechanics of a stats/upgrade system in an RPG. It's about 'what can I do?' rather than 'what am I supposed to do?'. Kaizo hacks and some standard hacks (many levels in JUMP Team hacks for example) just tend to take the 'what am I supposed to do?' approach. That's by no means a definition of kaizo design, there's a lot more to that, but it is the number one reason I prefer kaizo over most standard hacks.
I still like the non kaizo hacks for not only the story but also awesome levels of fair challenge
  • Pages:
  • 1
  • 2