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A little update to the Hack Submission Guidelines :)

Originally posted by lexy
Will this change include crediting the staff of original SMW in its entirety as well?
Since, you know, without them no SMW hack would've ever been possible in the first place.
If it's so important to everyone to get credit, where is the credit for the original creators?

In my opinion, the staff list of the original SMW is already well known, so just write something like "Original game by Nintendo" is enough. But for putting custom resources into a hack, there are endless possibilities. Thus, excipltly crediting custom resource makers is more necessary.

Also I don't think the guy who created that hack is doing stuff in bad faith; they just considering how detail of crediting in different ways.
I personally think that when it comes to these things, it's more about crediting the original content, including code, music/ports, and the like. I don't think you necessarily need to credit graphic rips in particular given that they're, well, ripped from another game; user can choose to credit the company, like say include "Capcom" or be a little more precise and say "Megaman X3" or something. But like, all of the background music (if AMK is used I mean), almost all porters put their name in the TXT file so it's literally just a matter of looking through your music and patches. That's probably the only tedious part should one fail to keep a list... like me. #tb{:p} And even then, SMWC is here to sift through. The hardest thing to do would be sifting through graphics actually because there's not necessarily a label with the artist's name you can readily look at in the files. Shameless: one of the reasons I dedicated myself to drawing was so that I could avoid this issue and all I'd have to do is credit myself and whatever games I ripped from. #smrpg{:D}

Crediting the original authors and people who worked on SMW besides the standard "Original Game by Nintendo" would be redundant, as in hacks the credits generally exist as a way of giving thanks and recognition to the people who contributed towards the project, whether that contribution be through a public resource or said individual directly offered a helping hand.
Personally I think that resources should have a toggle to indicate if credits are mandatory or not.
Now by default i think that resources that deserves credits are:
-Original music/graphics.
-Rips and ports that are hard to do in SNES.
-ASM in general (except very basic asm things, like some blocks or hex edits)
-Tools made by the community (except if they are very basic)

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Simply put, I think this is a change that’s been long overdue tbh. From the events that have led up to this point, it seems that this was caused because of GPW3? I’m not sure. But if it was then It’s kinda sad that someone of high status in the community had to be the one who led to this being more important, imo this should’ve been done a long time ago. But I really can’t complain since something is actually being done about it.


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As Of 6/19/2024.
Not trying to start anything but I find the fact that a lot of people are actually arguing against this to be incredibly strange. There's zero reason to not credit the creators of the resources you use; I can understand not doing it in contest entries, but full hacks? Especially ones that are going to be played by big streamers??? I really don't understand what the pushback is about. I've personally been making it a point to compile everything I've been using and release it in a big document along with my hack (along with link every resource I use in my video descriptions). It's the least I can do since I don't know how to do much except level design.

The "but what about the creators of the original game???" argument is also in extremely bad faith because 1) many people do credit Nintendo in their hacks to begin with, and some don't change the default credits sequence at all and 2) romhacking is inherently based on a sort of unspoken agreement between hackers and game devs that the hackers will freely edit the source game. That is not the same as taking community-made assets and not crediting the creators.
Check out my WIP romhack!
I also applaud this rule and question the push back. I can assume a few people just don't want to put in the effort of keeping track who made what ressource or thing...
To that I say, shouldn't you at least spend a bit of time on that, especially when we spent our time making the ressource you are using? It's just a logicial thing to do, or am I wrong with that?

A lot of people in the game dev industrie already get burried and excluded from game credits, which is saddening to see. Making the credits and noting down from who you used what ressources shouldn't be as difficult of a task, right? All you need to do is basically keep a txt file whenever you use something new and write down the name and ressouce (that is how i do it atm). It's often just 2 or 3 CTRL+C and CTRL+V motions...

I also can only agree with JupiHornet that being against it is super weird and there is absolutely no reason to not credit a creator/author of a ressource.
Also, as I like to say, more is better than less. #smw{:TUP:}
Just to start off, I think this is totally reasonable. I was wondering two things though -- one is the level of detail necessary (which was answered that simply a section with "Music by Huey, Dewey, and Louie" was sufficient). The other, related, is how much that extends to the use of base ROMs for hacks. Things get murkier here when it's easy to just throw in included blocks/sprites/etc without even realizing that these are separate resources. I realize that no one's likely going to be scrutinizing submissions in this great level of detail, but it would be good to at least have something to say about best practices for those that want to do their best to abide by the guidelines.
That would depend on how well a given baserom self-documents what is in it and nudges people to use their included credits file. I don't think the onus would be on hack makers to source everything in a baserom to construct credits, that's on the baserom maintainers. I can speak to those I maintain at least (vldc, bldc, rhr baseroms) that they are well documented as to what is in them and have credits files, so anyone using those can simply reuse or extend credits there, and to my knowledge other popular ones, like the Flux baserom, also as a credits file.
I don't really mind being left out if something is used but I support the rule that was imposed









you are a great person :3

I'm not from fairy tail
Heavily in support of this! Even since my first "big" hack release I've made an effort to include credits in the hack proper, though maybe I should also start including them in a credits .txt with the hack as well. Can't hurt, isn't too much effort and having more opportunities to credit resource creators is never a bad thing. I don't see much reason for pushback on this.
Ultimately it just feels silly that a rule like this is necessary. Crediting resource creators should be common sense, but hey.

Folks who don't keep track got some homework to do...

Man, my name is gonna go viral on graphics credits for my Mario-only block graphic :P (You don't have to credit me for that really, I always find it funny when people do)
One thing I didn't understand here and I only found out about these changes now.
If you make a credit txt file with this more basic format:

Originally posted by Credits
Graphics:
Listed Users

ASM:
Listed Users

Musics:
Listed Users

Even if we don't annotate their resources, which in my opinion would be a lot of work to look for each resource that was used to annotate, is it still acceptable in hack submissions?
Originally posted by Heitor Porfirio
Even if we don't annotate their resources, which in my opinion would be a lot of work to look for each resource that was used to annotate, is it still acceptable in hack submissions?

If I understood correctly, you don't need to cite the resources themselves, just the authors' names under their respective sections (e.g. d^4 under Patches).
#thp{O_O1}
I've seen a couple resources say something like "credit is not necessary", do you now have to credit these resources? Good rule btw.


Keep your spirits high, and your noodle sweaty!
Originally posted by SweatyNoodle
I've seen a couple resources say something like "credit is not necessary", do you now have to credit these resources? Good rule btw.


Short answer is: yes, site policy overrides what is written in resource descriptions. Edit: official answer is you can use your best judgement as whether to do so or not, but I'd recommend doing so anyway.
will be updating text to this, assuming there is no critical issues with it:
Originally posted by hack core values.com
If you use resources from the community, you should make a good effort give credit to the authors of those resources, this includes things submitted to the site as well as off-site resources that have known authors.

What we look for in included credits:
  • either a formatted text document or in-game credits (you can do one or the other, you need not do both)

  • that good faith effort was made to include all authors of resources used


  • When you can leave things out:
  • if an author states that credit is not necessary (if it is unclear, we recommend going with crediting them)

  • you have an appropriate reason to not include an author in your credits

  • if the author of a given resource is unknown

  • if the resource is a Tweak (hex edit) since it constitutes a very minimal change


  • Including credits is a good way for resource makers to know the impact of their contributions and for hack makers to acknowledge that. So we recommend providing as detailed credits as you can.


    it is wordier, sure, but given all the questions regarding semantics of the core value, perhaps it will be more useful.

    Originally posted by SweatyNoodle
    I've seen a couple resources say something like "credit is not necessary", do you now have to credit these resources? Good rule btw.

    no, but it doesn't hurt to give extra credit to everything + it's a good habit. if an author says to explicitly Not give credit, sure, use your judgement.

    Originally posted by Picayune
    From the events that have led up to this point, it seems that this was caused because of GPW3? I’m not sure.

    this was not caused by gpw3. granted, gpw3 is a very recent high profile example, but when a cursory mention of the hack lacking credits was brought up amongst hack mods, it quickly turned into a discussion about how common eschewing credits in smw hacks are. we figured why not remedy that issue while it was hot on the press. i would not put much weight on gpw3 being the impetus for that change, it's a bit unfair to throw on that hacks shoulders.

    Originally posted by MarioFanGamer
    There also is the issue of derived resources i.e. if I make a sprite which is based on an existing one (not just a disassembly but one made by a different user), who should actually be credited in this situation?

    generally just use and trust your own judgement on how to approach it - whatever feels more fair to you.

    Originally posted by lexy
    Will this change include crediting the staff of original SMW in its entirety as well?
    Since, you know, without them no SMW hack would've ever been possible in the first place.
    If it's so important to everyone to get credit, where is the credit for the original creators?

    no

    Originally posted by JP32
    I personally always have credited but I think it's bit much to force it, as it can be hard to remember exactly what assets I used and what I never ended up using or used something at some point but removing it later,

    it'll be a one time annoyance to go back and work on credits for a project you're currently making or nearly finished making. just keep a log of what you use going forward, strike stuff that goes unused, or find some method that works for you.

    Originally posted by SF - The Dark Warrior
    That is why I didn't think a rule like this needed to be made formalized in the first place but is because of how the site has been stress-tested with the release of GPW3 made by Barb, and whom I assume does not share the same kind of values SMWC has.

    please don't make these kinds of assumptions about people, it's not a good look. the site going temporarily down has nothing to do with anything in this thread (and, furthermore, was not barbs fault - and i hope he does not feel bad about it, shit happens).

    Originally posted by Daizo Dee Von
    does this mean Barb doesn't actually have to do it since his hack was already waiting by the time this rule was made? Unless it's rejected, he doesn't even have to do it. (Silent updates are a thing)

    weird making this solely about barb and gpw3 aside - any hack currently waiting does not need to go by this change. any hack accepted will have to comply if an update to it is submitted, and any hack rejected from the waiting section will have to comply.
    My personal opinion:
    I don't think it was necessary to make it obligatory, as including credits already was a common sense rule. But if it's a formal rule now, I'm not opposed.
    I highly suggest to all current romhack creators, to make a document where you list all the resources you used with their authors (a simple .txt will do). When you insert a new resource in your game, edit that document right after. If you don't know the author of a resource, go check the resources sections on smwc to edit that document. I know it add some work, but when you will make the credits of your hack, you'll just have to look at that document to have all the authors to include. And if you can't have credits ingame, you can just include that document with your game.
    For my hack, I did it in a google spreadsheet with all resources used, the changelog of each version, all hexedits done, and more. So when the game was finished, I put all the resources creators in the ingame credits, and also made that sheet public. Now if someone ask me "what is the name of resource X used in Y level" I can just redirect them to that sheet, it's quicker to respond. You will get a fair amount of PM asking you that (especially about custom musics), trust me.


    I have one question that may be controversial that I need to ask :
    If a resource in a hack is from a user that is permabanned on smwc, should the creator still be credited?
    Originally posted by idol
    i would like to note that, as of november 19th 2023, we will now be asking hack submissions to abide by the following hack moderation core value:
    [...]
    thank you! 🐎🤠

    Personally I think it would be helpful, if you linked your clarifying post in the intial statement. Just my 2 cents.


    Originally posted by AmperSam
    It is not mandating extensive in-game credits be in hacks either, because that is unreasonable, but it is not an excessive requirement that makers keep track of things they used (or just who's stuff they used) in a project in a txt document or what not to include with a submission.

    However I am supposed to find all the resources I've used for my hack I've been working on for the past 7 years out of a sudden; especially as some of them became unavailable meanwhile.
    I guess, that's where the "good faith effort" kicks in?


    Is it also possible to include the Credits in the hack submission directly or do they need to be a seperate file in the submission folder?








    Originally posted by Sariel
    Personally I think it would be helpful, if you linked your clarifying post in the intial statement. Just my 2 cents.


    I've amended the OP with the updated text of the guidelines.

    Originally posted by Sariel
    Is it also possible to include the Credits in the hack submission directly or do they need to be a seperate file in the submission folder?


    They do not need to be in the zip file you submit if your game has credits within it.