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Attention music porters.

I actually missed forxen's final point while responding earlier, so I'll address it now:

Originally posted by forxen
If a more "accurate" version of an existing emulator is supposed to cause more glitches than the last version, I'd personally stick with ZSNES 1.51 rather than 2.0.


We are the ones causing the glitch. The emulators we have been using are just too inaccurate to actually catch them. Heck, as far as I know, even the newest version of SNES9X 1.51 causes the game to stall at points because of this error.

I should also add that if you know what you're doing, you don't need intense echo to make a port sound awesome. Some of the best ports I've heard don't use any at all. I'm not saying I'm thrilled that we can't use heavy echo on the newer emulators, but I'm willing to adapt, as well as many others.
Good to know. None of my ports use over 4 (highest is 3) in echo, but still.


As for "newer versions causing glitches..." SNN's totally right. We're causing the glitch. If you don't want to be subject to SNES limitations, don't make games for the SNES.

I was a little peeved when I learned I couldn't modify the VRAM out of a v-blank, but I got over it. Why? Because I'm making an SNES game. If I want to make something without limitations, I'd go program something. And if I wanted it easy mode, I'd load up Game Maker. My goal is that if someone wants to dump my hack onto a blank cart and play it on the SNES, they could.
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We are the ones causing the glitch. The emulators we have been using are just too inaccurate to actually catch them.


This should be stressed some more, the only reason custom music authors are able to get away with this is a long standing defect in popular emulators. There should be no reliance on flaws in emulation to achieve greater quality, infact it's very easy to put a spin on this: Super Nintendo music that does not function on a Super Nintendo, where is the quality in that? All I'm hearing are clicks and pops, this is quality? Relying on errors of the past instead of adapting to reality isn't the way to go. I know alot of custom music authors will disagree with this decision but it's not impossible to adapt as already mentioned. You don't need an impossibly large echo buffer to make fantastic music, ask any talented musician who worked on a commercial SNES game =)

fake edit:

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I was a little peeved when I learned I couldn't modify the VRAM out of a v-blank, but I got over it. Why? Because I'm making an SNES game. If I want to make something without limitations, I'd go program something. And if I wanted it easy mode, I'd load up Game Maker.


Totally. Any hacker who played with VRAM uploads can very easily take the easy way out and just upload it during active display, and brand their hack "ZSNES ony". When I made VRAM patch I had to optimize that code quite a bit to satisfy real gameplay conditions, but that's so much better than not giving a shit and saying "ZSNES only fellas, sorry!". I try to make sure nothing I ever release will fail to work on a real SNES and its not hard to actually test this for yourself with good emulators like bsnes.
  
  
 



Now, is that number a time (ie, in frames) or a percentage of note length? Like, would $F1$08 with tempo 30 be the same as $F1$04 with tempo 15? If so, that makes things a lot easier (though more tedious). If not, then I have to re-do about a quarter of my soundtrack to make it sound okay with the new limitation...


 
 
       

Fluffy video games by me and Raibys!
 
 
   
 
 
That's a good find, I will check my echoes better now.
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SMWHacking? I rest my case.
SMWCentral? I leave it to rest.

hm, well what of the possibility of expanding SMW's echo buffer?

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I feel I should pitch in my opinion on the decision to reject music with an echo delay exceeding $04. As a music porter since late 2007, of course I care about music quality, but functionality is far more important, because without it, as smkdan said, where is the quality at all?

I use SNESGT v0.218, which does have the echo buffer bug that allows all delay values to work. I am aware that this is not a very popular emulator among most gamers in comparison to ZSNES and SNES9x, and they have fixed this bug in the new release of ZSNES. Logic only tells me that ZSNES users who stay up-to-date are going to upgrade or at least try the upgrade. Not to mention, bSNES tries in every respect to be hardware-accurate, and does a wonderful job of doing so thus far, and already has echo delay limits as what it should be.

My point in the above is, just because I am using SNESGT v0.218 which has this flaw and allows me to have an echo delay over $04, does not mean I should expect other people to switch to an emulator that has the echo delay flaw to be able to play the hack that uses the music. There's a lot of variety in SNES emulators and people pick what they want.

Even though I (and even if you) personally don't care for real hardware compatibility since the number of functional SNESes will gradually decrease over time, and not a relevant fraction of hack players have ROM copiers with which to dump hacks to cartridges anyways, or some other viable reason you can think of, like it or not, this is the future of emulation, and it just so happens that the developers of several emulators frequently used by people may care more about accurately mimicking the actual hardware's functionality (hence "emulator") than keeping a flaw that is "beneficial" to music hackers, and any emulator that can run SMW should be able to run a SMW hack just as well IMO. (So indirectly, I do care about real hardware compatibility. Heh.)

Fictional-but-realistic scenario time.

Let's take this from the point of view of a gamer who uses the new ZSNES and is not a SMWC regular - there are a lot of people who do not frequent SMWC to take into account in terms of people who could play your hack and probably will. He just removed his old ZSNES version because he likes the new upgrade. Later, he hears about this great SMW hack from his friend, and his friend's going on raving about what a ride it is from start to finish, so he has to try it and asks for it.

His friend links the download and tells him how to apply it, then he loads it up. So far, the game is great! He just beat level 1 and digs the design, and the visuals... he thinks it's going to run smoothly. Then, when he gets to level 2, suddenly, ninjas. Thousands of them. Making strange noises in the BG. They even stole the music. What in the hell is this?!

Then he understands that he really does have to downgrade or switch to another emulator to be able to enjoy the rest of the game as it was meant to be. Ummm... no? That would be a waste of the player's time, and take up more space on his computer/flash drive, all for one hack. How annoying.

Now, let's say that this was one of your ports that triggered the glitch. The player doesn't know it was your port specifically since he doesn't hang around SMWC, and the author of the hack receives the complaint which says it messes up in stage 2 on the new ZSNES. So the author, having read this announcement, forwards the complaint to you, to be sure you are aware that this is going to happen to other people who use your port.

The general idea of this situation will likely be commonplace, not infrequent. I'm going to end up revising my submissions some time soon, but probably wait to upload them when the waiting music count is down so it's less of a pile on the music moderators, and I hope more will do the same so that the bug does not become an annoyance to hack creators and players.

Azure's solution, which I am fairly certain would work if you adjusted the tempo and note values accordingly, is a reasonable alternative if an echo delay that you would otherwise have to sacrifice/alter is crucial in your opinion for the best quality while being functional.

Support +1 for echo delay to be taken into account in music moderation, in spite of the reduction of flexibility for echo delay. It's important, though, to allow as many people as possible to be able to play more SMW hacks without technical problems.

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If it's something that can be stopped, then just try to stop it!
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Now, is that number a time (ie, in frames) or a percentage of note length? Like, would $F1$08 with tempo 30 be the same as $F1$04 with tempo 15? If so, that makes things a lot easier (though more tedious). If not, then I have to re-do about a quarter of my soundtrack to make it sound okay with the new limitation...


The time doesn't vary with note length.

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hm, well what of the possibility of expanding SMW's echo buffer?


Must remove sample data until there's enough free space but then everything has to be shifted down. It's not a simple hex edit. If you had 8KB of free space you can double the length. It can go in units of 2KB.
What about all the existing hacks that allready have the echo over $04? If the new zsnes 2.0 whill make hacks go def if the music has a echo over $04. Then that means that all hacks that used music that echos over $04 will have to change the music so there game dose not go def with the new zsnes 2.0.

Maby when Hacks are made and posted here the description of the hack would tell you if its capable with zsnes 2.0.

for now I would stick with zsnes 1.51.

When zsnes 2.0 comes I would STILL STICK WITH ZSNES 1.51!!

unless I see some really good reason why I or anyone eals need to upgrade just to get better sound emulation.

I would stick with zsnes 1.51 (this is the emu I use).

I MIGHT upgrade when zsnes 1.51 gets terrably out dated but yea.

(no ofence to people who like zsnes 2.0)


  
  
 



Originally posted by smkdan
The time doesn't vary with note length.

I'm not sure if you understood correctly (I worded it very weirdly, and even if you did understand, I need confirmation - I don't really have working speakers at the moment to test myself). If you halve the tempo but have the same value for $F1$xx, does the time before the echo plays stay the same, or does it double because of the tempo change?


 
 
       

Fluffy video games by me and Raibys!
 
 
   
 
 
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for now I would stick with zsnes 1.51.

That's fine. No one's telling you that you have to update. They're just saying that any new music should be compatible with the new ZSNES, so unless you port music, this doesn't affect you.


There's not much that can be done about old hacks with this issue. If the creator is gone, the best that can be done is adding a "ZSNES 1.51 only!" tag to it.

HOWEVER, this new rule change applies to NEW stuff. Then, at least, the number of hacks with the "ZSNES only" tag won't get any bigger. Plus, hacks hosted here will have a higher chance of working on an actual SNES, since some people really do dump such things onto carts and play them that way.
Well I'm not really a fan of the type of music that causes the problem so yay. At least a new ZSNES is coming. Maybe my rom hack TAS will stop screwing up now!
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Originally posted by Mario VS Santa
Well I'm not really a fan of the type of music that causes the problem so yay.


lolwut
:( can someone give me some info on this? thing is right when i make my first port, (which is still in progress because of a long pause issue when it loops) i learn about this which only brought my mood down TT_TT
omegazeroINFI: All it means is that if you're using the echo command the first of 3 bytes after $F1 cannot be higher than 04. You're free to use 00-04, but not 05 or anything past that.
Originally posted by Red Chameleon
omegazeroINFI: All it means is that if you're using the echo command the first of 3 bytes after $F1 cannot be higher than 04. You're free to use 00-04, but not 05 or anything past that.

uh im a newb at this, basically open a hex editor and oh i dont even know what the echo command is so i guess it doesnt fully affect me then.
but still, it would help to know.
$F1 $xx $yy $zz
$EF $xx $yy $zz

That's the echo command. Sometimes it's also accompanied by:

$F2 $xx $yy $zz

I have no idea how it works, but the $F1 has xx, yy, and zz beside it. You can only set the xx in $F1 to 00-04, nothing higher. Otherwise it'll cause an issue with the new ZSNES.

Oh, and no hex editor is needed for working with the echo command - you just place it in the TXT of the song you're inserting.
Originally posted by Red Chameleon
$F1 $xx $yy $zz
$EF $xx $yy $zz

That's the echo command. Sometimes it's also accompanied by:

$F2 $xx $yy $zz

I have no idea how it works, but the $F1 has xx, yy, and zz beside it. You can only set the xx in $F1 to 00-04, nothing higher. Otherwise it'll cause an issue with the new ZSNES.

Oh, and no hex editor is needed for working with the echo command - you just place it in the TXT of the song you're inserting.


oh so were in the txt do i place it?
I think it works anywhere, but it's best to place it at the top of the TXT. I always do that.
So this is why my music instantly crashes on BSNES? Well, I could care less about deep echo. What's important is that the songs could work on an authentic SNES. That is what the art form is all about.