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MSU1 Discussion
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - MSU1 Discussion
Pages: « 1 2 3 412 13 »
Music is an important factor in a game, in case you haven't noticed yet.
Well since the only thing I'm quite good at and really enjoy about SMW hacking is music porting, I would hate to see this replace ports. Ports take time and patience to sound good. Of course SMW's instruments aren't the best but it takes skill to use them properly. But whatever, many people may not use it as stated before because of the file size.

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Your layout has been removed.
Here is a 1 hour debate me and some other users at #serioushax had about MSU-1 (there's some random stuff in there too but whatever).

I sound like I'm against it in that log, but I just wanted to start a good debate :P. I'm neutral on this, I think most people who are against it hate the fact that it ruins the fun in SMW hacking by removing music limitations and makes the hard work put in their ports not even feel special anymore. I don't think that many people will actually use this, not that many people use bSNES and besides the hack won't fit here on SMWC.

It is good for me if I try to make a hack though because I suck at music porting. {B)
I think that part of the reason why people enjoy vanilla hacks is because of that purism. Custom sprites, blocks, graphics, and other ASM additions can radically change the gameplay (for better or worse) but they also push it away from that purity. MSU1 is the next step away from Vanillaness into Chocolateness. Its neither a good thing or a bad thing. Its just going to depend on how people use it.

Without a doubt, you'll have some amateur hacks that use this but I'm sure you'll get a handful of great hacks that incorporate it as well. Personally, considering the size of the files required and that fact that you will need bsnes, I think that MSU1 will work best to create a special edition of a hack.

FYI - I have not read the debate due to lack of time but I'd love to read it after work. I may have mentioned some things mentioned in it here.
Initially I thought it was a revolution of SMW hacking, but now I think I'm wrong.
I'm not an expert in hardware, but I think that creating an expansion chip is not SMW hacking, is SNES hacking.
The hack is good, but the music and everything that concerns the use of this chip is not part of the hack, is only an amendment to the SNES


This is what I think.
Well, even if it was the best thing ever, I doubt we will ever get a full hack that uses it.

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As I mentioned so many times before, I love this new function, we can use more songs in our hacks than never before, therefore we can find more fitting musics (if you have a good taste, of course). Obviously, if you just insert these wavs because these are your favorite musics, and they absolutely don't fit to the current levels, the hack will be less enjoyable, and yes, I agree with Buu, music is a very important factor in the game. Just think about it, could you really enjoy a basically good game with shitty annoying music? I doubt it. I'm not saying SMW ports suck (even more, I love them very much, it's not an accident that I have a whole playlist of my favorite ports), but this just tops everything. Again, this is not a thing you'll have to use, it's an option (if we can ever get it to work on a new clean ROM), if somebody likes it, use it, if somebody doesn't, don't use it.

Originally posted by Kay Faraday
Well, even if it was the best thing ever, I doubt we will ever get a full hack that uses it.


I'm planning making 2 versions of my hack: a version with the "classical" ports, all inserted into the ROM, and one version with the WAV musics. This is the best choice in my opinion, different tastes, different versions. Also, my hack's going to be ~50 levels long and I think it's fair enough for a "full hack".
From the other thread.

Originally posted by "byuu"
Ah, I see. But the SNES has wholly unique games. What if you want to experience an enhanced Super Mario World or Chrono Trigger? I don't see any reason to tell someone, "no, you can't do that." just because it's less nostalgic.


Ah. I see. I get your point and have to agree. However, when it comes to Mario I know there are editors for the computer which are quite good copies of SMW, but exceed the original game's capabilities by far. They're probably not 1 : 1 copies, but fair enough to create Mario games that feel exactly like SMW. In addition to that they also offer the advantages of modern computers, though. That's a goold alternativ to SMW Hacking for anyone who wants to have modern games.

Oh well, I have to admit I also overreacted a bit. When I've seen SMO using MSU1 and everyone going totally crazy about it I kind of saw classic SMW Hacking go down the toilet already. I blamed it on the MSU1, but I guess that was a bit too rash. The MSU1 is a pretty nice enhancement for the SNES after all. I just hope what you said is true and MSU1 will be something not used in too many hacks.

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Feel free to visit my website/blog - it's updated rarely, but it looks pretty cool!
Look, I don't want to convince anyone here to use this. You don't like it? That's cool, I understand.

I added it because I thought it'd be cool to play some of my favorite games with new music. You guys can use it or not. But don't go around telling other people what they can and cannot do, please.

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File sizes will probably skyrocket with this new technique if many people adopt it


Most distributions will likely use MP3 and include a setup/conversion utility. Still going to be in the 20MB range. One could use MODs and drop it within the 4MB range.

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Unless you made it so that it worked on an actual Genesis + Sega CD system. And the same thing applies to this MSU1 thing.


It does work on the actual SNES:
http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?p=19154#p19154
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sd2snes/4898965544/

Data is stored on the SD card slot.

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Here is a 1 hour debate me and some other users at #serioushax had about MSU-1 (there's some random stuff in there too but whatever).


Only skimmed it, but all I saw was "fan game fan game fan game". I'm not going to keep repeating myself: it's a lot easier to hack an existing game than make a new one. This arguments works on you guys, too. That's why this site exists in the first place. Was Lunar Magic around in 1990?

Also something about cheating, even though it doesn't modify the SNES in any way. If this is cheating, then Yoshi's Island, Starfox, Kirby's Dreamland 3, Kirby Super Star, DOOM, Super Mario Kart, Super Mario RPG, etc are all cheating as well.

If anything, those "only plays in ZSNES" echo buffer music files are what is really cheating; that's something an SNES could not do regardless of what's inside the cartridge.

If you're going to complain that physical copies of MSU1 weren't officially licensed by Nintendo and sold in the 90s, well neither were any of your hacks or music files. And that ExLoROM 6MB memory map that FuSoYa created certainly wasn't ever made in the US. I guess we're all cheating.

The BS-X Satellaview supported audio streaming as well, we just don't emulate it because nothing played over it was ever recorded. It could also download unlimited amounts of data. If I utilized that protocol, would anyone feel any differently? If you are going to say a file isn't a satellite dish, then a mouse isn't a light gun and a keyboard isn't a gamepad.

There's also a Japanese piano teaching game that uses the second controller port to manipulate a CD player over IR to provide lesson instructions. What if we were to emulate that controller?

It seems many are upset that their hard work making chip-tunes is somehow negated by this. Why would you let the existence of something else diminish your pride in your own work? That's absurd. If what you're meaning is your hacks may become less popular compared to something that sounds better, then you're doing this for the wrong reason. If I worked on bsnes for popularity, I would have killed myself years ago for being such a miserable failure.

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not that many people use bSNES


You're definitely right about that.

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Well, even if it was the best thing ever, I doubt we will ever get a full hack that uses it.


I already have a finished Der Langrisser hack that has the full orchestral CD inserted. If you're meaning just for SMW, it seems kind of rude to indirectly predict SMO 2.0's failure.

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I'm planning making 2 versions of my hack: a version with the "classical" ports, all inserted into the ROM, and one version with the WAV musics.


You can make it one hack, just read out $2002-2007, if you get back "S-MSU1", silence the music and send MSU1 playback commands. Distribute the music files separately via megaupload or rapidshare.
Originally posted by byuu
Only skimmed it, but all I saw was "fan game fan game fan game". I'm not going to keep repeating myself: it's a lot easier to hack an existing game than make a new one. This arguments works on you guys, too. That's why this site exists in the first place. Was Lunar Magic around in 1990?


What I was trying to say is that BMF's hack felt so similar to a fangame (which is actually good to me, I prefer hacks which feel totally different to SMW) compared to most hacks hosted here.
Originally posted by byuu
It does work on the actual SNES:
http://board.byuu.org/viewtopic.php?p=19154#p19154
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sd2snes/4898965544/

Data is stored on the SD card slot.

Looks cool.

Originally posted by byuu
it's a lot easier to hack an existing game than make a new one.

No it isn't. Or are you seriously claiming I could implement a gun system with 9 different guns onto SMW with about 10 minutes of work?

Originally posted by byuu
I already have a finished Der Langrisser hack that has the full orchestral CD inserted. If you're meaning just for SMW, it seems kind of rude to indirectly predict SMO 2.0's failure.

Well okay, I admit, that sounded a bit rude.

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Well, everything I wanted to say was previously said by byuu and BMF, so I'll just say, doesn't this have more applications than music expansion? Being able to stream 4gb files has to have other uses than making your game sound cooler, but correct me if I'm wrong.
Another fun test case, curious to hear what you guys think.

For about $20, it is possible to buy two cables, splice them together, and connect the second SNES controller port to a PC USB port.

Once this is done, the PC can talk with the SNES, sending and receiving unlimited amounts of data. This data can contain commands for the PC, such as "PC, please play track# N". Now if you have your PC and SNES outputting to the same speakers through mixing, the net effect is the same, although far more garish than MSU1.

This cable not only really exists, multiple people have them working right now, and all you have to do is twist a few wires. No special chips, no SNES hardware abuse, no console mod needed, works right on the real thing, right now.

Is this better or worse than MSU1, and why?

More information:
http://www.byuu.org/serial

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No it isn't. Or are you seriously claiming I could implement a gun system with 9 different guns onto SMW with about 10 minutes of work?


I was under the impression we were talking about adding WAV music to the game.

But yes, there is a threshold. The more you want to do, the easier it is to make a new game. What I am curious about is why adding ten assembly instructions to a game to play WAV music means you're better off making your own game; but spending months in Lunar Magic totally redoing a game is better off as a ROM hack.

Remember, the "cheating" argument works against Lunar Magic, 6MB ROMs, larger echo buffers, etc. I'm asking strictly in the sense of, "what exactly crosses the line for you to warrant porting an entire game instead of hacking it to do what you want?"

For me, that line is difficulty, and MSU1 is not difficult.

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Being able to stream 4gb files has to have other uses than making your game sound cooler, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Near-infinite levels, no need for any decompression when you can DMA raw uncompressed graphics and text, and movie playback support. Probably lots of other things you could do, but the serial controller above would have a lot more possibilities.
Originally posted by byuu
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No it isn't. Or are you seriously claiming I could implement a gun system with 9 different guns onto SMW with about 10 minutes of work?


I was under the impression we were talking about adding WAV music to the game.

Me too but you clearly said
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it's a lot easier to hack an existing game than make a new one

which is false (and has next to nothing to do with adding WAV music to SMW so yeah).

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Originally posted by byuu
Quote
Being able to stream 4gb files has to have other uses than making your game sound cooler, but correct me if I'm wrong.


Near-infinite levels, no need for any decompression when you can DMA raw uncompressed graphics and text, and movie playback support. Probably lots of other things you could do, but the serial controller above would have a lot more possibilities.

Exactly, so should the really be a discussion about adding in music "cheaply", but about what can truly be accomplished with the MSU-1, and if all of that is cheating. Honestly it seems the reason most people are against it is:
A) It doesn't "feel" right.
B) They don't want to get their hard work surmounted by your hard work. (That's right all you music porters, for as much time as you spent porting music, byuu spent making this chip. Think about it.)
Originally posted by Kay Faraday

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it's a lot easier to hack an existing game than make a new one

which is false (and has next to nothing to do with adding WAV music to SMW so yeah).


I believe byuu means "hacking with an existing tool" (like Lunar Magic) is much easier than make a new one from scratch. Of course, it'd be harder if you start exploring the ROM by yourself, finding out how the level system works, etc, etc.

Also, we've talked a lot about this thing, but now I'm really curious: how can we start this MSU1 music feature on a new expanded SMW ROM? I'm pretty sure many people would be so happy for a little tutorial (included me), so could anybody tell us how to start? I really want to try this on a new ROM, and I think I'm not alone.
Originally posted by Hadron
I believe byuu means "hacking with an existing tool" (like Lunar Magic) is much easier than make a new one from scratch.

If he means creating a new game for the SNES, then I completely agree. I assumed he meant a computer game (what with the talk being centered at fangames and all).

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Seriously, what's up with people? If you don't like it, don't use it. Feeling that this new feature is "cheating"? Then ignore it. If someone wants to use this method, then let him use this method.

I thought you guys are trying to take hacking to a whole new level but now where we got this great MSU chip thingy, it's suddenly something that ruins SMW's "nostalgia" feeling. So, does adding new music (ports in this case) or graphics not ruin that feeling? It's not SMW's original music or graphics anymore. You're changing the player GFX? What's with the nostalgia, playing as Mario?

If you don't like it, don't use it, don't pay attention to it. But let others enjoy the new gimmicks byuu is showing us.
While I think the advancements being made via bsnes are amazingly impressive, I don't know yet whether I will ever personally make use of them, particularly with my current project, just for the mere fact that working within the 1990s system's limitations does provide for more of that "retro" nostalgic feel. Plus, something tells me that the mere process involved in upgrading your ROM to work within this development system is going to be prohibitive for some people.

However, I do not understand whatsoever the complaining that is happening because of this. I can understand why music porters might feel a little bit disgruntled by this, but think of it this way - before, it was like you could only compose music on an out-of-tune piano with only half the keys, and now you might as well have a full orchestra at your disposal, complete with singers and voice actors if you wish.

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[?] Miscellaneous Helpful Hints
If I moderated your hack, there was apparently a 90 percent chance it was rejected.

Originally posted by Weeabuu
Seriously, what's up with people? If you don't like it, don't use it. Feeling that this new feature is "cheating"? Then ignore it. If someone wants to use this method, then let him use this method.

I thought you guys are trying to take hacking to a whole new level but now where we got this great MSU chip thingy, it's suddenly something that ruins SMW's "nostalgia" feeling. So, does adding new music (ports in this case) or graphics not ruin that feeling? It's not SMW's original music or graphics anymore. You're changing the player GFX? What's with the nostalgia, playing as Mario?

If you don't like it, don't use it, don't pay attention to it. But let others enjoy the new gimmicks byuu is showing us.


QFT.
But seriously, all I'm seeing in this damn thread is arguments and obvious rage. I mean come on, a person just gave SMW hacking a whole new level, and you guys are giving a certain excuse saying it's "Cheating"? Seriously? Basically what Weeabuu said, if you don't like it then don't use it and don't even talk crap about it too. It just makes you look like an ass.

I for one am very hyped about this new feature, and is waiting for a public release for anyone to implement this feature on our own hacks. It'll be much better. And don't say it'll ruin the "nostalgic" feel.
Wasn't SMW hacking meant to make the game better in many ways, and make it, it's own game?

Seriously guys. Being an asshole wont help. And please don't accuse me for calling anyone an asshole. I'm just making a point.
Nothing to put here at the time being.
Thanks to Tom Servo for the awesome new layout!
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