First, this is not an announcement or something just a bunch of questions and random thoughts about a possible (?) project.
Second (because this question will come anyway), no news for TSRP3. At the end of 2009 I decided to do nothing at TSRP3 in 2010 because I had too much other stuff which needed to be done, so it's on ice for this year. I know that's not what you want to hear, but if there's something positive to tell it's the fact that all the stuff I wanted to do this year worked out pretty well so far, so I have no doubt I'm back into TSRP3 next year.
So... what is this thread about? Since I did TSRPR there were some people asking about a possible TSRP2R and there were even some people who wanted to do this by themselves. So far I said no to all that, because (as I probably said a lot of times before) there's basically no free space left in the rom and wrapping it up in the first place was really painful, so doing any additional stuff was totally out of the question. Thanks to the new version of Lunar Magic that changed now, because TSRP2 wasn't full because of some endless ASM-codes, no it was because of the level data. Almost all the levels consists of lots of single 16x16-tiles because of the ExGFX and that takes up a lot of space. At least, until now - now you have the option to combine tiles and I have a feeling that would do wonders to TSRP2.
But, that's only one of the issues. Second, I haven't thought much about this project yet, because doing a project like this would be obviously a lot of work. Actually, some people talked about combining TSRP2 with addmusic and that would be it - I don't agree because something like that is pretty lame and not really up to my standarts. :p
Take TSRP1 for example: Lots of people told me that all I needed to do was to make a custom overworld and that would be it. I couldn't agree, I had much more in mind, and TSRPR is actually very, very close to what I had in mind for the remake, so... point is, I think TSRP2 needs much more rather than adding custom music and as I said before, it's much of work no doubt. And if you remember what I said about TSRP3 you get the idea why I don't think I will do this project: I really don't know where I take the time. When I'm back into TSRP3 I'm sure it will keep me busy for a long while. I was thinking about turning it into some kind of team hack, but right now it's too early to think about that because that would mean I need time to work on it as well and I don't have it yet.
Back to TSRP2R:
The only way I can see to get this done somehow would be making TSRP2R into some kind of team hack as well. Unlike TSRP3 this might work right now, because all the levels are already done. But the problem is, of course, because the fact I don't have much time for it, someone else would have to do the work, while I'm doing nothing I would be more some kind of supervisor or something to keep things organised and whatnot. And yeah, compose some music for it of course. I can't see TSRP2R happening without new music from me. xD
Let's see. This is of course all theoretical for now, and whether this project happens or not mostly depends on you aka the ones who wouldn't bother helping me out with it. But before we think further about that, we should look into the kind of stuff I think needs to be done to TSRP2 to reach "my standarts":
-The first point is obvious: Custom music. It's also the one point I will probably take care of myself. Overall I would want to use quite a few ports (mostly ones to fit the areas which means a Kirby-track in a level with Kirby-GFX and so on) - I'm also planning on using many tracks from SMBAllstars to keep the connection to the original TSRP2's music. And at last, new compositions of course, no doubt about that. But I hope it can be done with ports in most places to keep the work minimal. :p
-Second point: Now it gets tricky: The graphics!
TSRP2 has lots of graphics/tilesets and while some of them are still great, some of them needs to redone or upgraded. I'm mostly talking about levels where I used gameboy-GFX which resulted in a NESish look. Another point would be a somewhat consistent graphic-style which mostly means: adding black outlines to solid objects, like I did in TSRPR. So far, this may sound easy, but it's not. We have to keep in mind that we want to use LM's new object-feature and I'm afraid we need to get rid of all the Map16-setups in TSRP2 and start rebuilding everything from scratch (like I did in TSRPR) along with some clever thinking about the objects and whatnot. I think the best way to handle TSRP2 wouldn't be doing it on a "level by level"-basis, but instead doing it on a "doing by GFX-set"-basis.
For example: I would skip Mario's Castle-level at first, starting with the first regular level, remaking it with the new graphics and so on, and then I would do the same thing to all rooms in the game which makes use of this particular graphics. Then, I would move on to the next grahic-set. Overall the whole approach wouldn't be too bad, because there's also the chance to upgrade not only the GFX, but the GFX-files themselves. Most of them just aren't that great and have a horrible setup.
Overall that's pretty much it. I know after the release of TSRP2 a lot of fancy stuff was made, but I'm not sure if this hack needs it. Besides, it would also depend on the space we have left in the rom after the "important" stuff is done, before we look into all that "gimmick" stuff which is only there because it looks good or something. I never cared much for that. ;) Either way... now it's your turn! What do you think about it? Would it work, would there be interest at all in a project like this or is this just not worth the effort? Let me know what you think... because that's the first step anyway. :p
I pretty much agree with your statements, FPI. When I saw that people were asking for a TSRP2R, I thought something like this: "but it isn't a vanilla hack like TSRP, has a big bunch of custom graphics and lot of custom things". The Reloaded version of TSRP was somewhat "needed", since (although it was an awesome hack in its time), it wouldn't be an outrageous hack in the new, graphics, ASM and music oriented SMW hacking era. It was very cool to play, it's still an outstanding SMW hack out there.
Although, I'm not saying I wouldn't enjoy a TSRP2R at all! It may not be "needed", but if FPI works on it, it's sure going to be awesome. I'm pretty sure it would be also as famous as TSRPR, people would love it, so theoretically it's worth it. If you take the time, and create something great, it's not really important that you make a remake, a completely different game, or something else. But true, it would take a lot of time, insanely lot of work, and TSRP3 would be released in 2020 (just joking =P). So before this post becomes a wall of text, in a nutshell: I think TSRP2R would be as great as TSRPR (or even better), but I think you *should* finish TSRP3 first. Personally I'd like to see a sequel first...I'm soo damn excited about the story!
Well, it seems like you got quite a plan here FPI, and I can gareentee the posts of a lot of people coming in saying "LET ME BE YOUR PARTNER" simply b/c they might want to just work with you or get ahold of some of your stuff. But I would love to say this
your sense of remaking a hack seems very cool, but GFX wise would probably not be the best decision. To maybe do this (since you want to start from Scratch) you will have to have two Lunar Magics open and go through hell remaking the levels the way they seem on the other Lunar Magic. Plus, there are custom sprites and more importantly, Custom Blocks you will have to sort through and MAYBE regather. When I recharged Hunter's Revenge, I had to go through hell remaking the levels and making them alot easier than what they were on the original game. It turned out very nice, took up little room with the consistant GFX style of the game and the OW turned out amazing (especially the last now that I know how to make ExGFX submaps). Thing is, if you just watch and keep things organized and just compose music, you may have created the levels, but if someone else does all the level stuff, it's kinda thier hack too, mostly yours ofcourse, so don't be afraid to sign up for that one... wait, I'm confusing myself here, hang on.
Okay, remaking a ROM from scratch is a GREAT idea, but what method are you planning on using? Copy and paste level and polish the GLITCHED looking GFX crap on the level with new tiles and better looking GFX. ALL the way, that's what I did with Hunter's Revenge Recharged. Your method of doing it GFX wise instead of Level World wise, seems a bit um... hard, seeing as TSRP2 used ALOT of different GFX, so maybe GFX wise in remaking would be hard. Now, if you mean like, get some good looking GFX, and remake all the grasslands first, then desert, then castles, ect... that's easier to do than level wise or the more complicated way.
And lastly, I would love to work with you on this, seeing as how I have wanted to maybe learn from you a bit, but seeing as how I don't even have the time for my OWN hack, I have to say no, sadly. Anyway, I hope you get yourself a GOOD and RESPONCIBLE partner, not just someone who looks up to you as a god (you would be surprised of how many people do, not listing names or evidence) in SMW hacking.
Edit: Look at the post above and you may see what I mean in the terms of, looking to you as a god...
But anyway, don't let anything discourage you from doing this, TSRP2 was a great game and I hope this makes it better. GO ALL THE WAY AND DON'T stop! ;)
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Well, I think it would be a great idea. Us here at Devious Four, (reluctantly Metalgearhunter and myself) are great team hackers. As in, I myself, happen to be an experience custom graphics maker. I'm not sure if it'll fit your style, but I'm more than capable of helping you out with this.
If you do decide to let me on your team, we've got to find a way to keep in constant contact, (Skype maybe) either that or E-Mail. Doing things like this requires constant communication. Lucky for you Heck, lucky for anybody that PM's me, I'm not the kind of person that ignores people when they ask a question. (Thank goodness)
I really like "The Second Reality Project" series because, for one thing, it seems very stable, and has a well built story line. If TSRP1 was remade, why not do the second? You do; however, need to limit the amount of people that will work on this with you, or else we'll have another SMWC here. When you recruit a member, besure YOU know what they are capable of NOW. (I say that because people still judge me by the work made like... 3 years ago???) Besure that they know what they are doing. I myself may not know ASM or music composition, but that is because I'm a drawing artist, and that is what I specialize in... I just happen to be good at making levels as well.
Your standards I will agree to; however, it is your choice whether or not to recruit me... and please don't look back at time that are 6 months- 3 years from now.
If you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about two things:
• The Chocolate Level Contest from last year.
• The days when I was making Fourth Sector... which was two years ago.
Holy hell, I wrote a lot... I don't even know if anybody will read all that!
Why hasn't anybody made ledge grabbing and crawling ASM yet?
This whole situation is a bit funny: Yesterday evening, a good friend of mine reminded me of TSRP2 and asked me: "Do you know the level called Rhino Oil?" I said no, I haven't played TSRP2 in ages, and he wanted me to play that level and as I hadn't had the secret yet, I played through a bunch of levels of TSRP2 with him.
Now, just a few minutes ago, I rated TSRP2 and read through some reviews and saw someone talking about TSRP2-Reloaded and now I find this thread.
Away with the slight off-topicness:
TSRP2 Reloaded! Whoah.
This sounds like a huge pile of work, but I fully support this idea as I always have been a big fan of the TSRP series. (TSRPR is actually the standard I want to reach with my hack.)
I am sure that if this project ever gets finished, and I don't care how long this would take because I would with no doubt at all be playing this, another top hack would be created.
I, personally, would like to see the difficulty of those levels a bit decreased, though. Not much, just a bit, making it quite as difficult as TSRPR.
Nevertheless, I personally cannot help you out with this project even though I badly wanted to, but I need to work on my own hack, too and university starts right on this Friday for me, restricting my spare time a lot.
On the other hand, though, I would also like to see TSRP3 coming out, but I really don't care which project you will put priority on if you ever start creating TSRP 2; that stays your choice.
As every TSRP series, TSPR2 Reloaded will be an amazing project if it ever gets done. I fully support the idea.
-------------------- I play different games on Twitch, currently I speedrun Pokemon Gold or play some other shit, can also include SMW hacks. Check out my twitch!
Exits done: 45, Overworld: 85% Play through Taomb Demo 3
Taomb is alive again. For how long I don't know. But it's "only" four more levels to go.
No, I never meant it as an insult. But if you read it one way, and then another, it can sound like you were sounding as if you were saying that anything FPI was involved had to turn out good, even if a three year old were behind the project. I'm not trying to say you said anything, besides, I sad "may" not will.
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I've heard this rumor about TSRP2R. Well, particularly, I finished TSRP2 twice. I liked the way most levels were developed. TSRP2 was one of the best hacks I've ever played.
About doing a remake of it would be interesting. Despite TSRP2 lived with many graphics limitations (because the Lunar Magic at that time was not as good as today), most of the graphics were excellent. The music from SMB3 were well on some levels, but now, it's already tiring. They are totally outdated. As you did in TSRPR, you've developed excellent musics, and they all were quite consistent (I have the TSRPR OST in my computer).
But, remaking all TSRP2 levels can be tedious and uninteresting, because all levels have been edited. To make a hack from scratch is much bad at the beginning. When we got to the end, we realize that it was worthwhile! If you could put some more extra levels it could be interesting. But I know that you used in all levels from SMW because I've looked at this hack into the Lunar Magic. (It is not locked). This is a bit bad because it would be interesting to have cutscenes in this new version. We know that cutscenes use many levels and there is no space available for it. The way to solve this problem would be to use interactive cutscenes such as the Romi Cutscene Tool and some others I've seen out there.
And about the good tilesets (which has no way to substitute for other), there is a way always to improve a little more. Everything can be better than it already is! You can use the patches as the ExGFX Revolution Set for this. You always used the default SMW statusbar and it would not matter if you use the Sprite Statusbar.
This hack was good for those times when a lot of things was not possible. It certainty impressed many people. Now imagine this same hack in times where all is possible: It can return to doing the same success as before! (I would like to be your beta tester if it's possible. I've said it before when you were still developing the TSRP3).
I fully support this idea and for sure many people will want to help you develop this project.
Although a remake of TSRP2 isn't as necessary as it was for TSRP, it would sure be great to have.
However, I think it'd be best if you finished TSRP3 before working on this.
If this project really goes somewhere, I'd love to participate. Don't know exactly where yet, maybe something graphics-related. Redoing levels in general is also something I'd imagine being fun, so I'd be willing to do that as well.
Yeah... I gave the whole thing a few more thoughts. There was one thing I totally forgot about and that's the added map16-space available. With that I think it might be reasonable to keep the existing map16-pages intact after all, so level rebuilding shouldn't be that much of an issue anymore. We could place our object-replacement stuff on the later pages, right? Overall this should decrease the amount of work quite a lot, I think. With that in mind I probably would be even able to do most of the stuff myself, and in the end I would mostly need help with upgrading/replacing some of the graphics, probably.
I'll look into it a bit more and maybe I have some news up soon!
Regarding "TSRP2R vs TSRP3", as I tried to point out I hope TSRP2R won't affect TSRP3's progress much. Overall, I sure would love to have TSRP2R ready before TSRP3's out so that the story development in all three hacks will work better together. There's a lot of stuff happening in TSRP2 but it just "happens" without any explanations thanks to the lack of any cutscenes - and most if not all of the message box text messages are horrible.
What I would like to archive in the end would be, that you theoretically could play through TSRPR, TSRP2R and TSRP3 and it would feel like one big hack because of the story and how everything works together and so on... right now TSRP2 stands out a bit, not only because of the graphics or lack of custom music, but also because of the badly presented plot.
But whatever - that's for now, I go to bed now and I'll try to wrap something up as soon as possible!
My honest opinion? If it was my hack, I wouldn't do it. You've listed many challenges that would arise in remaking the hack, and if it was me making it, I don't think I'd want to put in that much effort for a hack I've already released and moved on from.
Now, I'm not trying to stand in your way of your decision. Of course, if you have a true desire to move forward with this, you should go right ahead. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't feel pressured to update your old hacks to keep them current. Players should appreciate them for what they are and not how they stand up to current advancements, in my opinion. I have no doubt people would love TSRP2R, and if that's enough motivation for you, I say press forward. However, you gave everyone a very well-received interim with TSRPR. I'd personally rather see TSRP3, a brand-new hack, before I see a second consecutive remake. Who knows...by the time you finish TSRP3, there could be even more resources in the SMW hacking world to make TSRP2R that much better.
I just said all of his works are awesome (which is true, in my opinion).
Does this include Chaos Complexx?
(smacks Moose several thousand times)
Well, TSRP1 was... Um, needed a remake a lot more then TSRP2. Not that a TSRP2R wouldn't be nice, it's just not needed. New music and making the plot make a bit more sense would be rather nice, but right now, TSRP3 should be a major priority.
If you do feel like starting TSRP2R before TSRP3's finished, I won't complain, but it really should either be a side project, or as mentioned in the first post, somebody else would work on it while you're a supervisor/composer. Or something.
You know, I understand the argument that TSRP2R isn't really "needed" in the way the first was--in fact, Ive probably used that argument myself--but I've go to admit, I've been secretly hoping for a [not-actually-an] announcement like this since TSRPR was released. TSRP2 has some of the cleverest and most original level design in all of SMW hacking, and it seems a shame that it should be fated to feel like the weak middle chapter between TSRPR an TSRP3 due to a comparative lack of polish, just because it happened to have the bad luck to be made a few years earlier. Sure, aesthetics and story are secondary to level design, but that doesn't mean they don't have a strong effect on the playing experience all the same. Playing TSRPR and TSRP2 back-to-back, it struck me that as much as I enjoyed the game (the levels themselves are, on the whole, even better than the first), I really, really missed the music. The story, too, to be certain, but the music most of all, as it gives the game a huge amount of atmosphere--something TSRPR is brimming with, which non-coincidentally makes it feel like one of the most "complete" hacks out there. TSRP2 tries to build up atmosphere (and, to a certain degree, a story as well) to the best extent possible at the time, and it does a pretty good job in the circumstances, but I'd love to see it developed to its full potential. In short, TSRP2 is indeed a great game already, yet I would argue that it is precisely for this reason that it deserves to have all the shine of its more recent siblings.
Still not too fond of the BG, though. The glitched castle is fixed (and has some more colours), and it won't repeat a dozen times in the BG thanks to the new "slow horizontal scroll-option, but overall the whole thing still looks somewhat NES-ish, if you ask me. But overall, I don't want to get rid of the castle as a whole, so that's the best I can up with for now. Either way, if anyone have some suggestions or skills to spice it up let me now. It's pretty much the only BG in the game I don't know what to do with, so... :p
Anyways, as you can see I tried to make the level easier which means all the pits are gone. Most of them are filled with water, but some are replaced with munchers. Despite the fact that the level now has more objects because of that it's still smaller than before, but not much of course. With 6kb is was already very small to begin with, and one of my next actions would be to take care of the "labyrinth Zone"-levels since these are by far the biggest in the game and since there are quite a lot of them there's a lot of potential for new free rom space. :p
That looks really cool. If the whole game would look like this, that'd be awesome.
The difficulty was... yeah, a bit over the top. No, downright cruel. At some levels, I had to stock up on capes to fly over a few parts and some sections were inhuman because some jumps were almost impossible (Rice Beach secret exit anyone?). At least since the third world, I had to abuse savestates which I'm usually strictly against.
Enough of the bitching about the difficulty, if you would tone that down a bit, that would be great.