00A: Lily Swamp Romp - Milk

Have you got a name for the level?If not, how about crocodile creek?Just thought of it now.

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Your layout has been removed.

I've already removed the shadows altogether after reading agie's and Axem's thoughts. And with that, I will likely move the darker water over solid objects to show where the water is solid. (Honestly, not sure why I didn't do that since I typically do whenever I build levels of this sort.) As far as the layer priority trees stopping at the water's edge, an obvious priority conflict would arise regarding Mario (qv next point)...


While I understand this belief, I feel it would hamper overall vision too much as well as create unfair and/or unwarranted difficulty. Personally, I've never liked when level designers prioritize opaque water, despite whether or not it actually looks aesthetically pleasing. Typically, I try to side with aesthetics as much as I can without hampering mechanics, but this is a situation where I would definitely side with mechanics/ease of play over looks. Maybe some other opinions?


Thanks for pointing that out - I'll get on that. In fact I think in very early development I knew I was going to have to code such a block as you suggested and then it somehow just slipped my mind once I started actual level construction. Oops...


Yea, I've already fixed up all of the glitchy areas plaguing the bottom of the level. I re-tiled the entire bottom when I went through and removed all the shadows.


As of yet, no. I'm still leaning towards Dreary Drifting or Axem's suggestion of Dour Dour Drift, but I'm always open to more suggestions/opinions.


And finally, apologies for not having any updates in the past few days as I've been out of town. Like I said, I fixed up everything that's been pointed out so far. I'm hoping to have a new ips up in the next couple of days.

Er, I know I said I should have a new ips up, but unfortunately I'm still troubleshooting a few block/sprite issues which renders the newest area completely broken at the moment. However, I do have a screenshot to show off some of the stuff I'm trying to implement into the third area.



Ignore cutoff etc - basically, this is just a test area. Anyways, I'm showing off two different items here: a new type of lilypad and a swamp gas bubble. The lilypads are a variant of the appearing/disappearing block (obviously with water) and includes the proper ledge/water interaction that Lightvayne had mentioned was absent. Right now, they come in only one variety (with an alternate sequence type) where they are on for 0F frames and off for 0F frames. You can see a pair of them on the left in mid-phase and a solitary one on the right that currently is in its "disappearance" phase. I've made a second variant that alternates every 08 frames as well, but I haven't tested it as of yet. ($7FC080+ hasn't been too kind to me as of late.)

The swamp gas bubble is a reskin of the YI balloon with some minor tweaks. However, I'm still fighting a strange issue where every now and then, Mario will suddenly warp to the left by 1 screen when touching the sprite. I've noticed this strange bug in the past when using these on my own hack in an unaltered state as well, so not sure what that's all about. If anyone has some insight, please let me know. Also, is there a way to make them pop when they come in contact with an object? Not entirely sure how to do that.

I'm pretty sure someone else is using this sprite as well (can't remember who at the moment), and if that's the case, I want to see if we can come to a tilemap agreement regarding this sprite (as is, the default tilemap clashes with the blargg). I'm also fairly sure other "bubble" sprites have been requested/are being coded? I may look into this as well.

Also, I know the coloring looks pretty gross - I made it that way to allow for some transparency. Trust me, it looks better in game than it does in the pic. But if anyone has ideas for better shading/coloring etc, let me know, or if anyone can offer to draw a better bubble, please do. As is, it's based off of the goomba bubbles, so yea.... Oh, and if anyone can draw a lump of tiny animated bubbles that can sit atop the swamp water from which these bubbles can arise, that would be greatly appreciated. (I'll likely update my resource requests at the beginning of this thread with this as well.)

First up (in regards to Axem's Raven sprite), I drew up a couple of additional frames:



(Ignore coloring, was using some test colors in YY-chr.) Personally, I'm not too happy with the "wing-up" frame I drew either, although the animation itself has improved with the new frame. I also drew a "perched" frame (since I planned on using it as a Swooper reskin). I'm actually pretty happy with the way the perched frame looks in-game. Axem, if you have any thoughts/improvements, adjust as necessary if you wish.


Reading through his thread, it sounds like he's planning on modifying the sprite as well, but a bit differently than how I'm wanting to use it. Hmm, I wonder if we could set the sprite/shooter up with our differing mods to utilize the extra bit so we don't have to waste sprite slots (more so for the shooter). I'll have to talk to him about that, but it looks like we're still both in the process of trying to get the sprite to act exactly how we see fit. (more below)


Thanks! I've been worried I have too little/too much gimmick-wise. The above additions are the last of the gimmicky platforms I plan on using. I plan on introducing the bubbles in the second section and the appearing/disappearing lilypads in the third section, which will then combine all three platform varieties together. I'm struggling to fix one last bug with a particular set of the appearing/disappearing lilypads. Once I get that sorted out I should finally have a non-broken level I can post.


If there was a way to sync up the animation with the sprite's creation, that'd be great, but I don't see that happening. An alternate method would be to recode the sprite to have a 16x16 or 24x24 frame when it first forms. I don't have the coding expertise to pull that off, but I can throw the idea into the Resource Request thread. But if it isn't made, no big deal.

As far as it being greener/clearer, I suppose either could work really. I'm just wanting to avoid a completely opaque look. I plan on using them in conjunction with the giant green bubbles in the second area (although that's not entirely set in stone yet) - so I guess maybe they should look more like those? I'm not sure, honestly. I was thinking that giving them a clearer look might help indicate that they are safe to touch? I know that probably doesn't help much. I guess I'm pretty open to ideas here.

I thought about adding the claw into the "wing-down" frame as well and then just sort of neglected to do so, but yea, that may look better. Overall, I think I did a pretty crappy job on the up-wing. I originally had it positioned even further to the right, eventually moving it left. I tried positioning it left by another pixel overall but couldn't get the wing/head transition to look right. (Hmm, I wonder if your original "wing-up" frame would be fine if the leg was repositioned towards the back, because I do like your wing graphic. I'll try that out.)

As far as frames, I left yours in there as a comparison. Of course, I think it'd look really cool to have "swooping" poses (your wing-up frame etc) for Swooper's actual "swooping" phase and then normal flight frames for the horizontal phase, but that's likely needless sprite modification and wishful thinking on my part.

Also, minuscule textual update: I started constructing the raft area last night. Amazingly, I did not have to deal with the same positioning nonsense that Hadron had to deal with - strange. However, I do have some priority issues I need to sort out. Hmm....

Thanks! I inserted the update into my level last night. It's still a little funky, but nothing to cry over and besides, it's much better than the original animation. I'm waiting for the next Base ROM update to post an ips since half of my sprites/blocks still aren't working properly. But once I get the new ips up, if you haven't had a chance to see the animation in action yet, they'll be in there so you can decide whether or not they need any further adjustments.

As far as "swooping" frames, like I said, it would be nice to have, but I don't think its worth making an additional sprite just for an aesthetic enhancement, so don't worry about it.

Sidenote: I just realized I haven't tested the level with the FastROM patch applied yet. That could potentially alleviate some of the lag/sprite issues I've been experiencing when buoyancy is enabled. Hmm...

Ok, now that the new Base has been posted, I can throw an update up.

Please take note of all of the following known issues:

-The second area (0A5) is not meant to be judged in any way, shape or form so far. It's only there to make sure the gimmick works. I'm well aware of the priority issues, graphical issues, lack of content etc etc...

-Ignore the following graphical anomalies:
--Venus Traps: I think the correct graphic file was submitted for these - didn't check, plus these are NOT the same Venus Traps that are already in the Base (more on that in a bit).
--WYE's Cabins: I had to rearrange ExGFX112 to accommodate my own ExGFX file that uses these cabins as well. I'm uncertain as to the status whether my remap worked or failed - my guess is that it failed since the original ExGFX112 is still in the Base.
--I'm aware of the ExAnimation bug when the goal is grabbed - I'm still thinking on that.
--Muchers will eventually be replaced with something else entirely, since I really don't want them present in this level.
--BG is added just to see how it works. I'm still undecided if I actually want to use it. Opinions?

-Ignore the following sprite issues (for some reason, the Bubble + Shooter sprites I requested appear to be in the Base ROM but are not working - not sure why (wondering if they were accidentally skipped although they are on the signup list). Therefore, I had to reload all of the custom sprites manually that I'm using. Obviously, as a result, only those custom sprites I manually uploaded are present.
--Venus Traps: I'm actually using Imamelia's Venus Trap (not sure what version the Base uses, but it appears to be different, hence the position deficit for the upside-down version and the additional graphic anomaly all around).
--Level 0A6 does not have a ceiling generator yet since I didn't manually enter that sprite.
--I had to use a normal goal sphere for now since I don't have access to the one in the Base ROM.

Also, I've included the FastROM patch in this update, so please let me know of any slowdown you find as it will be imperative that I fix it since I will no longer have the patch to fall back on. Buoyancy is still unchecked, and will likely remain as such.

And, please let me know if you encounter the screen warp bug regarding the bubbles. If you do, I need to know which screen you were in and what shooter was involved. I'm a little suspicious that it may be a result of the bubbles and Mario crossing screen boundaries, but I can't seem to prove it as of yet.

Oh, and Axem, how do those ravens look?


vv--------- READ AFTER TESTING ---------vv

Questions:
1. Is the sprite setup on screen 0A of 0A6 too much of an ambush/think quick situation? I added the Koopa at the last minute before I made the ips - still undecided if it works or if it comes across as unfair.

2. Overall, do the bubbles feel like they are spawning too slowly? I've already upped their Y-Speed slightly. Anymore and I think it would look unnatural. However, I'm very worried that the bubbles just aren't spawning fast enough - although this doesn't necessarily seem to be an issue for every instance.

3. Is the 3rd area outright too difficult for World 2? Personally, I feel the 1st area is very easy, but I'm beginning to think the 3rd area might be a tad too hard - although it still seems simple enough to me, especially since you can swim.

4. Speaking of slow, does the level feel slow overall? Due to the types of moving platforms I'm using, I'm wondering if certain parts just feel like needless waiting around. Although, for the moment, nothing is preventing you from swimming, so yea....

This is my first shot at this level, and I think it's probably one of my favorites that I've played in this collab so far. I don't find it slow at all - waiting for the bubbles may be a tiny bit much, but honestly, they spawned fast enough that I was never really waiting for more than a couple of seconds at a time. I'll point out some issues I have, address your questions, and then provide some overall thoughts.


This is the first tree you encounter in the level if I recall, and it seems a little misleading. I jumped into it, and thought I was literally in it, but I ended up sinking to the bottom. I guess there isn't really much you can do about this though .. maybe I was just being dumb, or something.


Those serve no other purpose besides acting as decorations, right? Just wanted to confirm.


I'll grab that file and throw it in the base right after I'm done with this post.


A little piece of me doesn't agree with the bubbles going into the roof like this, since weird things happens (such as what is pictured above). What I'd suggest is breaking down the ceilings here and putting a ceiling generator in instead (think you mentioned it in your post, assuming this is level A6).



Warp bug happened here. Halfway up the bubble in the second screen, I warped to where the first screen is. This is the only place I encountered it, and I played around with the bubbles quite a bit.



I wish I had read these questions before playing the level .. but anyway, I don't recall any sort of major "quick-think" situations (and I've been known to point these out in previous levels), so it must not have been that big of a deal.



They're fine.



Actually, I don't think so. I can't even recall any overly difficult situation in the level - however, I do have a rather major suggestion which you can find in my overall thoughts at the bottom of this post.



Not really. It's not an athletic level by any means, but it acts as a nice, calm introduction into world 2.

Also, the BG works well in this level (in my opinion).


As for my overall thoughts, I think it is very close to being cleared. Something really intrigued me when I played this level. I feel that the progression is there, especially with introducing and utilizing the bubbles. The enemies aren't overly saturated, and the architecture and atmosphere are both very interesting.

...however, as I promised, I have a suggestion which you may not like. In the level's current state, I find it to be just right in length, or maybe even a little longer than it should be. I don't entirely know if you should even add the raft section since I think it'll make the level too long. It took me about 3-4 minutes to beat it as it is now. If you really DO want to go through with the design of it, then I'd suggest the following.

Either:
a) Chop the end of the first area and some of the third area down, or
b) Create it, and use it as a sublevel linking yours to Shellface's within his level, or
c) Use it in a different part of the forest world entirely.

I feel really bad for saying that, especially since you came into this level with that as your main idea .. but honestly, I think what you have right here is already good, and the raft gimmick would oversaturate it at this point. I know the others may have varying thoughts, so you might want to read what they have to say before taking my suggestions into consideration.

Regardless of what you do, good job on the level overall.

Wow! Honestly, I really didn't expect that kind of response. Thanks!!

Now to answer some questions/concerns:


I guess I can turn this tree into a low priority tree. Looking at it again in LM, I guess I can see how it could be misleading since it is the first broken double-wide stump.


Right.


Yea, the whole ceiling interaction hasn't quite sat right with me either. Ideally, I would like them to pop, but the ceilings could still cause some havoc. I wonder if I could get them modified to pop after a certain amount of time or once they reached a certain Y-position. And yes, ideally, the ceiling would be replaced with the ceiling generator in most of these areas. (Oh, and color me impressed - I haven't even managed to stuff Mario into the ceiling yet, even though I've tried just to see how bad the bugginess is.)

As far as the warp bug, it seems the one you had an issue with is one that lies directly on a screen boundary. That bubble is actually one of two that I've had this issue with. I'm going to slide some stuff over and see if I can fix it, if it is the boundary causing the problem.


I just wanted to see what your natural reaction was to these questions before going into the level with them sitting in the back of your mind. I'm just glad to see that these worries are for naught.


Trust me, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. It's funny how I initially went into this level with one idea, had another secondary idea hit me, and managed to take this level in a whole other direction. Honestly, I don't mind if I have to drop the raft area. If we'd still like to see it somewhere else as a sublevel, fantastic, but I'm not going to push for that. But, I may still build it anyways just in case a decision is made to use it somewhere.

Oh, and just to throw out a fourth alternative, I could use it as a short off-the-beaten-path sublevel for the third SMWC coin, since I don't actually have that inserted yet - something that's just a few screens in length. There is a group of pipes near the end of level 00A where I originally intended to place a bonus room but in the end decided against it. And don't take this as me trying to keep the area, like I said, I've been contemplating dropping it for a while now myself - I think I might have even made mention of it when I uploaded the first version of the level.

And yes, I guess a new name would be in order now, hmm..... Ideas?


Yea, that's because the Swooper seems to animate at a quicker pace than most sprites. My thoughts, it's not perfect, but it's nothing to whine about either. I think it's ok.


I assuming that's down to available sprite slots and I can't really do much about that, at least with my extremely limited asm knowledge. Causing them to "pop" would probably help. As long as the "waiting" for the next bubble/set of bubbles doesn't feel like an eternity, I'm good. And really, for me, there's only two spots where I ever feel like I'm "waiting" which would be screens B & C.


I caught that too when I was testing the ips. I didn't have that problem with the original goal sphere (the one that's in the Base ROM), but I'll look into it. I noticed the last Koopa in level 00A had the same problem when I tested the ips. I meant to note those in the original post, but forgot while trying to remember all the other little issues I wanted to point out as well.


I've found that to be true as well and have been moving them around nearly every time I test the level. Just haven't found that sweet spot for all of them yet.

Anyways, thanks for all the suggestions/concerns and (whelp) praise!

And don't forget, I'm still looking for someone to draw up some animated bubbles to serve as a spawning point for the large bubbles. Also looking for a possible redraw of the large bubbles themselves.

Just to try out the rafting area as an optional sub-level which houses an SMWC coin, I cooked up this test section. I tried to create something that shows off the idea ever so slightly while remaining simplistic enough as it is just a sub-level for an SWMC coin like I said. I'm not entirely sure if it works as is, and I'm rather expecting suggestions to change the end of the area no matter if this idea as a whole is approved or rejected. I guess it's a matter of whether or not the SWMC coin should be a guaranteed prize at the end. (Oh, the sub-level can be reached via the first pipe in the large group of upside-down pipes in the first area that has a block of four coins and a ledge underneath.

I've also moved the midpoint to its official area. To note, I thought about having the sub-level bypass the final section of area 1 and dump you into the beginning of the final area (0A6), but figured the idea of skipping the midpoint wouldn't be too hot of an idea. I could place a midpoint at the end of the sub-level though. However, without remapping a large amount of graphics and ExAnimation, I can't place the midpoint in 0A6 - I'd rather avoid that if I can.

Things to note in this update:

This is NOT a full level ips - it is broken!! What I mean is that since the bubble shooter/bubble sprites are still dysfunctional, I did not bother manually inserting the sprites on my end, so the second half of the level is impossible to finish as is. For those who want to test the final area, refer back to my previous ips that I posted. This ips is meant purely to show off the sub-level.

Please note that I am aware of the following graphical gremlins:
-The midpoint's ugliness. I just haven't gotten around to shifting all of my pipes to palette 5 yet.
-The lilypad's drawn against the dirt tiles are using the incorrect dirt tiles. Honestly, I'm surprised no one's caught that yet.
-I think I fixed all of the priority issues in the sub-level (0A5), but there may still be a tile here or there (mostly looking at branches here) that I may have missed. If you catch one, please let me know.

And before I forget, though I'm not expecting the end result to work anyways without some rather unwanted priority shifting, but how exactly would I go about shifting all of Layer 2 down by roughly 4-8 pixels? I know it can be done through LevelASM, likely using $20 I'm guessing. I've never messed with Layers before, so I really don't know. I think it could help improve the aesthetic of the raft "floating" on the water as opposed to "riding" on the water. And on the subject, what is the easiest way to test LevelASM code with the Base ROM? What address is LevelASM using?

Anyways, depending on the thoughts regarding the above area, my to-do list is now fairly small. I still need to tweak a few of the ravens' roosting positions in 0A6. I also need to shift a couple of sections near the end of 0A6 because of the bubble-warp issue. And finally, I just have a couple aesthetic issues I need to polish up.

Hmm, Lily Swamp Romp has a nice little ring to it. What's the thoughts regarding "Lily" being in the name in regards to the rhyming/alliteration rule that's imposed. Would that fly or not?

Yea, I was aware of that. Seeing as only one is really affected by that, I figured it wasn't that big of an issue, but I suppose I can create something a tad "blockier" for that landmass if it is bothersome. I'd prefer not to lose that one bubble if I don't have to, but....

Also, I should point that the area could see a few minor tweaks once I have a working bubble shooter again - we'll see.

It's a simple fix in tweaker. Maybe SNN will consider doing it.