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00F: Treetop Toss-up - agie777
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 2 - 00F: Treetop Toss-up - agie777
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Pages: « 1 2 3 »
Owner: agie777

World: 2
Exits: 2
Theme: Forest
Music Options: 1, 2, 3, 4, or compose your own.
Additional ExGFX Recommendation(s): ExGFX 111/112 (Forest treetops with treehuts) [BG2]/[BG3]

Briefing: A two-exit level in the middle of the forest world. Keep in mind that the secret exit leads to a pipe which takes you back to world 1, so it shouldn't necessarily be too difficult to find.

It might be cool to make a level high in the treetops!
blablabla

Hurray! Not my first choice, but oh well, better than nothing.

Level name will be "Canopy Clash".
Whoops! I forgot where I had seen that name before. I'll make up something else.

Level name is going to be "Treetop Tussle" (by MrDeePay).

Anyways, thank you for this in depth review, AxemJinx.

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
Level overview:

The main entrance is in the middle. To the right you see a yellow pipe, which is inacessible. You're making your way to the left through the canopy. On the left end there is a pipe up.
You're now in above the forest. There are floating landmasses, and some tree tops stick out. You're going down a yellow pipe, the same you saw at the beginning.
Some hills are showing up, and this is where the path splits up. The normal exit is straight up front, through a dense forest.
For the secret exit you have to kill a volcano lotus, in order to hit a turn block which will summon a growing vine. It leads to a bonus area: gold coloured woods, and you'll be able to grab a star. Lots of coins can be collected here.
Then there is a pipe back to the main area, and a tunnel with munchers; the star is needed to enter this tunnel. It's not a tight muncher run, you have plenty of time. Inside the tunnel is the secret exit.

Edit 2011-04-22: 2-5 Canopy Clash

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
You should move the midpoint to the left some so that the player sees it before having the option to take the above path. As it was, I took the upper path and completely missed the midpoint.

You forgot to add the goal roulette sprite.

You probably need at least one more powerup available between the beginning and the pipe to the second area.

It's definitely better but still needs more polish for sure. Let's see what others say.
Oh uhh...I'm flattered that you like the level name enough to use it here, but to be honest I'd rather you come up with a different name even if it shares one of the words. I mean, it's your level and not mine, right?

Anyway, you've shown remarkable progress in a short time. I can tell because my following comments are going to be considerably more specific, on a screen-by-screen basis. I agree with all of FirePhoenix's comments, and have some more to add. Keep at it, because now this is starting to look like a proper forest stage.

Level 00F

0D: You know, I like how the ground the lotus is on looks somewhat like a volcano. Mario starts in a position where he can see danger but is in control. Players tend to move left->right by default, so they'll find a powerup and reverse direction. I think it's a nice way to open the stage. (Also, in response to Lightvayne's comments in the Testing thread, I think it's fine that that particular lotus can be killed by sliding, but yes, it's something to keep in mind for situations where you don't want that to happen.)

0C-0B: The blank platform gives players time to plan their way past the ninji formation, which is done nicely because players must decide whether to kill the second one and go under, or jump up to the next platform and continue, and the first time around they seemed roughly equal to me.

0B-08: This section is weak: it feels empty. The platforms are too elongated and singular/isolated, and the enemies don't make use of all the space. If you want to keep the platforms you already have, then you should consider what to add. Maybe a tiered platform with a puntin' chuck? Maybe a pitchin' chuck? Maybe a plain ol' chargin' chuck? The chuck enemies tend to fit wider platforms as long as they're not overused, and there aren't any others in the immediate area. Should the bouncing koopas stay or go? Are there any other sprites you should use? Should they be on ground-level, or on tiered platforms (above or below)? Find a way to make this section more busy.

08-07: That jumpin' chuck seems a little odd- I don't think players will see it coming because the camera moves with the winged platform. A different chuck would probably be better.

07-06: Same problems of emptiness- try to modify the spritework in the same ways I've been telling you. The football is especially odd because I think it's the only one in the level. Unless you're hinting at something, I think it's generally better to use things in plural or not at all (though I'm sure there are exceptions; this case just doesn't seem like one).

05: Hmm, generally I'm against putting midway entrances like this in plain view. I understand we might be short on sublevels and secondary entrances, so I won't harp on it for now, but keep in mind players might feel like they should be able to get in there before realizing it's just the midway entrance, so in the long term try to think of ways to "hide the implementation," if you know what I mean.

05-03: This area is seriously underutilized. You have an interesting "diving board" setup with some alternate platforms leading downward, and that arbitrary cluster of ninjis is such a waste. Here's an idea I have: put a pitchin' chuck on the first platform below the diving board. When players "dive," they'll have to avoid intercepting the baseballs. Alternately, they could try to preempt the chuck and go down those lower platforms, so to prevent that from becoming a dominant strategy, put other enemies on the lower platforms, such as ninjis or lotus plants. Get rid of the ninji cluster up top; one or two should be fine, or maybe a different enemy altogether- that's up to you. You could even add another platform to the left of the diving board and add a second pitchin' chuck so Mario can't just avoid everything by rushing through (or alternately, extend a pipe downward from the sky so Mario has to dive down instead of jumping left. Also, it wouldn't hurt to have a fish in the water and maybe also a ninji on the left end of it.

02: A few too many ninjis here. Notice how the sprites were more varied at the beginning of the stage? That's the better way to do things, so change up that spot a little.

01-00: Since that puntin' chuck won't pose much of a threat by itself, I'm wondering whether you should add a second one closer to the pipe, be it on a treetop platform or an airborne bridge platform or whatever. I noticed you don't seem to like putting bridges in the air by themselves, which is fine, but try to think of how to add another chuck there, or something else you think would add a modicum of challenge.


So, let's stop here for now. I'll post about the other areas later.

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I'm curious to know if there's any purpose to the Ninji on the lower platform in screen 00 in the main level. Is there future plans for that area or is it something that's meant to be purely aesthetic? Every time I've tested this level, I've continually looked for a way down there, figuring if there's a Ninji down there, there must be something else. Of course, looking in LM, there's nothing, so it really strikes me as odd design.

I also hope there's plans to utilize the Ceiling Generator via LevelASM since you can easily jump over the wall on screen 0E now.

On a sidenote: It's a shame that WYE ran out of space in his tileset, because it'd be really cool to see some branches in there to help break apart some of the monotony of trunks and platforms, especially in the last section of the level.
Milk: If you're talking about the wall at the start, then yes, there will be a ceiling generator, but it I wonder how you managed to jump over that. If you're talking about the wall in the higher section: that wall isn't there to stay.

I don't see how that unacessible Ninji could confuse someone. That Ninji is just jumping around at his house, enjoying the weather. But actually, it might be a good idea to put some clouds under the falling platforms, and as an award there's a 1-up.

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
Originally posted by agie777
I don't see how that unacessible Ninji could confuse someone. That Ninji is just jumping around at his house, enjoying the weather.

...what?

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Check out my music!
Updated level.
2-5

Now with extra canopy and background in the sky type area.

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
Originally posted by agie777
If you're talking about the wall at the start, then yes, there will be a ceiling generator, but it I wonder how you managed to jump over that.


Yes, the wall at the start of the level. As of now you can climb the Question Blocks on the backside, but no worry if a Ceiling Generator will be added.

Anyways, as far as the latest update, I'm thinking maybe you're now using too many Chucks throughout the level? Then again, looking at the level in LM, maybe not. Hmm, I suppose you should see what others think. However, there are three Chucks that I find a bit suspect. The first is on screen 03 in level 00F - personally, I think his placement makes that jump a little too precise for a World 2 level. If you weren't having to jump up to that platform, it probably wouldn't be of much concern. The other two are the ones on screen 0E of level 00F. The first one can possible be construed as a think-quick situation, and the one on top seems to have a nasty habit of being in the way when you try to run up the wall every single time. But maybe that's just me and my playing style where I'm just not being patient enough to wait for him to fall to the bottom before I make a dash up the wall.

Elsewhere, I'm a bit surprised at how little you've used Wiggler in this level as a whole. Although his usage in level 030 is fine, it just seems like he could be put to descent use in level 00F. Maybe a couple Chucks could be swapped out for Wiggler here or there? Also, I'm wondering if the Falling Platform should make a return appearance at the end of the level in the tree thicket?

But, yea, this is just one person's opinion, so you should see what others have to say as well. Otherwise, the level is looking better and better with each update.
Originally posted by Milk
-Everything Milk said in the previous post-

Perhaps you're right. The chucks sometimes create a situation too difficult for a world 2 level. The one on screen 3 was defenitely misplaced. The ones on screen E aren't too difficult to stop. If you look around a bit, you'll notice that the one on top of the ledge will be blocking your wall run. Just kill the bottom one before the top one even reaches you, and then you can pass him without any problems.

The falling platform runs shouldn't be over used. Variation is the most important thing, and I already have them in twice.

Wiggler doesn't fit in the level F tileset. So I can't use him. Even if I were to change the entire level just to be able to feature wigglers, they can still only be used on certain locations. Wiggler doesn't cooperate with slopes very well.

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
Originally posted by agie777
The ones on screen E aren't too difficult to stop. If you look around a bit, you'll notice that the one on top of the ledge will be blocking your wall run. Just kill the bottom one before the top one even reaches you, and then you can pass him without any problems.


Like I said, could just be a byproduct of my playing style.

Originally posted by agie777
Wiggler doesn't fit in the level F tileset. So I can't use him. Even if I were to change the entire level just to be able to feature wigglers, they can still only be used on certain locations. Wiggler doesn't cooperate with slopes very well.


All you need to do is create an ExGFX file that places the Wiggler graphics into the Ninji set. And I'm fairly certain Wiggler's tilemap does not interfere with that of Ninji's, the Lava Lotus or any of the Chucks (someone correct me if I'm wrong). In fact, even Spiny could be included (since his tilemap doesn't interfere either), thus giving you a singular sprite set utilizing all your current sprites that can carry across the whole level. (Unless there's an allowance as per how many ExGFX files each designer can use.)

Just something to think about.
Looking much better, agie777. I still have a few comments and suggestions for this part, but it's definitely more polished than it was before. Keep it up (:

Level F

9, 2: Putting ninjis next to lotus plants was a clever idea, and I especially like the addition of the jumping chuck the first time around, because it seems to confront you with perfect timing as you deal with the lotus setup (and even if it doesn't, it's placed well, between the winged platform and the lotus).

A: This chuck helps get rid of the sense of emptiness I was getting before, and it feels more natural now.

7-6: I forget what this area was like before, but if it's been changed I like this version better. Again, the level feels properly populated (without overdoing it) and has a sense of flow (few, if any, abrupt changes).

5: This is very good placement. If players have already jumped on the previous chuck they might have to unexpectedly deal with two chucks, and if they skip past the pitchin' chuck they might have to dodge baseballs on screen 4.

5-4: Since players can't actually see those bottom two platforms at first, your solution ends up being more elegant than mine :p The way the lotus fireballs poke through the floor is nicely done. However, given that you have four ninjis clumped together there, and two more on screen 2, I feel like the ninji you encounter by the water should be another enemy. You might want to use fish or wigglers here, for example (and I'm not sure I like how you broke up the water with that new platform).

3: I don't think this jump is that bad. The clappin' chuck only hops when Mario is higher up (generally), so in most if not all cases players can simply bounce on the chuck back to the previous platform, wait for the chuck to run off into the pit, and continue.

1-0: The pitchin' chuck here is also well placed in that it will likely do a jumping throw first, which might catch players off guard a little, but not without enough time to react (they'll probably land before the first baseball passes over them).

I'm not a big fan of putting chucks in front of pipes. It's not a pain here, because you can still squeeze through after the first hit, but generally I try to avoid doing that.

I like how the ninji below hints at a secret, and you've now placed a 1up there. Good work.


So yeah, I think this section more or less meets my standards for competent level design. Let's look at the next section.

Level 30

Primary issue: I like how you change the sprite set in the sky area, but there are too many places where Mario can just jump effortlessly over enemies, particularly spinies. It's probably a good idea to replace some of them with (or just add) some airborne enemies. Para-goombas, flying koopas, and flying piranha plants would probably fit well, and if you want to go even further than that (you don't have to), things like lakitus or amazin' flyin' hammer bros. might also work in moderation.

0-2: It's good that you give players to adjust before facing a super shell, but it might be a good idea to add an enemy with slow x-speed at the right edge of screen 0, such as a bouncing or flying koopa. You might also want to move the wiggler a bit left so it isn't so easy to kill it with the super shell (though I'm not sure). I like the smwcoin setup.

2: The crouch jumps that powered-up players will have to do here to avoid the gaps in the clouds here are unnecessary, especially in World 2, and it feels a bit empty. I would bridge the clouds, maybe put a couple of gaps in the question/brown blocks, and put an enemy or two on the blocks.

3-5: The other set of falling platforms was half as long and also hid a 1up (so that was fine), but this one just seems boring and unnecessarily long. You need something here to make things more interesting- some airborne sprites? Some stationary terrain and/or obstacles? The way you're using them here is just too basic; I'd say either add to this part or completely redo it.

6: The way the black outlines cut into these platforms looks weird to me, though you may want to wait for the cross-examination on that one :p

7: More interesting sprite usage; in my experience it's been somewhat uncommon to see sprites poking up from below (though I could be wrong about that). I don't know if it's necessary, but you could even try moving the chuck one tile up and see whether or not that feels better.

8-9: The midway point placement is clever, but I'm worried players won't notice it. It might just be better to use the "normal" tiles, unless you can make sure players will know where it is.

Parallel Paths Section: Personally I tend to avoid parallel paths like this because they limit my sprite options, but that's just my opinion. You probably could make this work, but I see some issues.

The top path takes you very close to the top of the screen, so most jumps (and jumping enemies) will go off-screen. I'm thinking you should bring the upper path down a few tiles.

The jumpin' chucks aren't placed very well, as they can suddenly waylay players taking the lower path. You should take care to sure they stay on the top path as much as possible, so change either the chuck placement or the platform orientation to accommodate that.

Make sure there aren't any places that interrupt the flow and feel abruptly empty. Screen A on the lower path looks like it could use an enemy. Also, keep in mind what I said earlier about using airborne enemies so Mario can't just jump over everything effortlessly. Another possibility is to use wall-running triangles to propel kicked shells into the air, although you probably shouldn't use that too often for a World 2 stage.

Finally, it might just be me, but I feel like wigglers shouldn't be used on such short platforms.

If in the end the parallel paths thing doesn't work out, you could also try consolidating them into a single path and rely on sprite variety and direction of movement instead. Which way to design is up to you.



I also have a few preliminary comments so far about the third section.

Level F (2)

E-F: Players have very little time to react to those chucks, and if the second one jumps down it kind of negates the purpose of the wall-running triangle since you can just bounce up instead.

12-13: It might just be me, but just like that other water section, I feel like fish enemies would fit well here.

14-15: Keep in mind that these throw blocks can also be used against the enemies by the goal. You might want to switch the position of the ninjis by the goal with the puntin' chuck. That way, players can use throw blocks to defeat the ninjis if they want, but still have to be careful about incoming footballs. Besides, that would make for a more climactic ending to the level.

18: Firephoenix mentioned it before, but I see this version still uses the original goal bar. Remember to replace that with the new custom goal roulette sprite.


So, let me see how you handle the above issues, and then we'll see if there's anything else of note in the latter sections.

Edit: Come to think of it, it's probably not a great idea to have the secret exit so late in the stage...but for now, focus on the above, I think.

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Another update: 2-5

The background palette is kinda strange. I copied-pasted the colours over each other but still they aren't the same.

Level changed to the critism of AxemJinx. Still don't know how to use ceiling generator/goal roulette. I really have no idea where the secret exit would fit elsewhere.

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
Some quick comments:

Level 30

The piranha plants emerging from the canopy is a neat idea, but they continue to fall until they hit solid ground, which means the first few don't come back up. It'd be better if they could come back up as much as necessary without having to make solid foliage blocks...Maybe you could request a re-coding of that sprite so it stops falling based on y-position and not whether it hits solid ground? That would probably be ideal, but I have no idea if it's feasible...But yeah, it especially causes problems for the one on screen 9 because it visibly dips into the lower path until it finds the bridge tiles.

Also, the lower path looks much, much easier than the upper one; is there any point to taking the latter? You have to be careful about difficulty balancing with parallel paths...especially when the upper enemies spill into the lower path without warning. The jumping chuck on screen A and the hopping flames can (unfairly, I'd argue) fall on players.

0-2: Still feels empty. I'd recommend an enemy on the right side of 0 and the left side of 2.

2-4: Again, feels rather empty (and flat), and I think para-goombas would work well with the flying spitting piranha plants. You could even use a lakitu for 0-6. Do you not want to use those sprites? Also, how are you supposed to get that powerup?

Maybe you should put the 3rd smwcoin in the upper path to justify the higher difficulty there, but even assuming you do that, I still think this section needs re-balancing. Upper enemies spill into the lower path, which is pretty devoid of enemies otherwise; the upper path has small platforms whereas the lower one has wide continuous platforms; the upper enemies are more air-based whereas the lower ones are all grounded. In combination, these produce very uneven difficulty. So, try to either balance the paths, intersect them, or merge them, because as is I don't think they're working properly.


Level F

3-4: This is a possible spot for the secret path. You could get a throw block on the lowest platform in 4/5, for example, and kill a fish blocking the way underwater to hit a vine block. The important thing is not to have the player trudge through the whole level twice just to get the secret exit.

I still think the football chuck on 17 should be moved next to the goal on 18, and the ninjis shifted forward, maybe one even placed on the platform right after that lotus plant.



I might have more to say about the secret path too, but for now I'm more concerned about what you do with the parallel paths section, so definitely focus on that and then the other recommendations I brought up.

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Updated version: 2-5
I think I balanced out the seperate paths in level 30. I'm thinking of completely re-designing the secret path, after you enter the pipe. The pipe has already been moved to a new location.

I still have the nooby questions of how to add a ceiling generator and the goal roulette.

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
Well, I'd say this is looking better with each iteration ;)
It would be nice to hear other opinions too, but I'm assuming people approve of the progress you're making and will comment more once it's more or less done.

Level F

This is looking pretty polished now. I especially like the complementary chuck and lotus placements right before the goal. There's a short, noticeable spike in difficulty, but nothing a tad of patience and precision can't overcome. I like this even better than my "move that football chuck further back" recommendation. Good work.

I also appreciate that you moved the chuck in screen 0 forward a bit so it's not quite blocking the pipe.

For screen 1, I'm wondering whether you should extend that cloud platform a single tile to the right, simply because it'll be hard to see where exactly the platform is after falling rather quickly on the gray platform. It's not a huge deal, but think about whether or not it would make sense to do that.

The only areas I'm not quite so sure about are the small water areas. I'm leaning toward recommending that you put one or two fish enemies in there (as always :p) for a bit of variety, but if you think it'd be weird for fish to appear only there, I suppose I'd understand. I mean, I'd argue that fish in water doesn't stand out even if it only happens once or twice in a level, and it would also cut down on the amount of chucks you use, but again, I leave it up to you, and also others' comments.

Now that the secret area is much earlier in the level (which I approve of), it would make sense to extend it a little, at least to justify the fact that if you exit the area without using the key you wind up near the end of the stage (unless you change that too, of course). I really like the palette change in the secret area; maybe you could add a small section with yellowish hopping flames, and maybe spitting piranha plants or lakitus or something? Then you could have the star run as usual. Also, consider whether you want the star to appear by itself or in a block. In this case either way is fine for me; I just want to make sure you think of all options before deciding.


Level 30

You know, I actually meant those goombas with parachutes XD But that's ok, because the level works well with the bouncing paragoombas too.

I'd like to hear what others think about the spitting piranha plants in this section. Having them only appear once is a little unconventional, but I personally don't have much of a problem with it. I do think you should consider placing some of them a bit higher, though, or extend the platforms on either side, since the fireballs tend not to reach the platforms players are standing on. Also, I'm flirting with the idea of putting an enemy on one or both of the cloud platforms on screens 2 and 4. Remember, blue and red koopas don't fall off of ledges, for example, so that's an option if you think placing enemies there would work.

I'd also like others' opinions on the midway bar placement. Do any of you think it's easy to miss, or is it fine?

Anyway, overall this section has improved a lot, but I think there's still some tidying up to do.

Let's say players die after passing the midway point, but want to use the upper path. They might get unfairly hit by some of those enemies on screens 8-9, no? Personally I think the midway entrance would fit better in between those lower platforms on screen 8.

I'm a bit worried about the piranha plant on screen 9. It's hard to tell when it's below the platform, and it seems like you have to spin jump on it to get across, which isn't necessarily bad by itself, but that jump does seem a little unclear to players. Maybe you could extend the platform just a bit to the right so players can also jump past the piranha plant and then jump up to the cloud platform, or maybe make it easier to see when the piranha plant is safely beneath the platform...do something :p

The jumping chucks don't land on platforms, which is especially a problem for the upper one since it might land on players traveling the lower path.

The high-bouncing koopa on screen A falls before you get to it, and the one on screen B is hard to see because it spends most of its jump off-screen.

With all the stuff going on in the lower path now, arguably it's a bit too much harder than the upper path. I'd say adding one or two sprites to the upper half would even things out, but you also have to worry about slowdown, so...work on it a bit more and test it, but it's pretty close to being properly balanced in terms of difficulty.

Also, it could be argued that you use a few too many clapping chucks here, given their abundance in level F. You could use red and blue koopas (since they don't fall off ledges), parakoopas that fly back and forth, or whatever you'd like so long as you introduce a little more sprite variety. Small pockets of variation throughout the stage certainly wouldn't hurt, in my opinion :p

Finally, I'm wondering whether you should merge the paths at the end of screen C rather than E (while mostly keeping the dirt/land formation on screen C). That would remove the last clapping chuck (leaving you free to put an enemy among those coins at the end) as well as some of the platforms that are very close to the top of the screen (I'd rather have Mario mostly on-screen in early stages).



As for inserting custom sprites, I believe you press the Insert key while in Sprite Editing Mode, and then enter the sprite number and whether the extra bit is set.

According to the Sprite Signups Thread, it looks like the goal roulette is #2 and the ceiling generator is #D0 (put these in the 'command' field).

The extra bit determines whether a sprite has an alternate behavior, kind of like how Monty Moles either chase or ignore Mario depending on their X position. It's just a way to include two similar sprites in one slot to conserve space (correct me if I'm wrong).

I don't think the extra bit would be set for either the goal roulette or ceiling generator, so I believe you should enter a '2' in the 'extra bit' box.

Don't worry about the graphics in Lunar Magic- I think they show up fine in the game.

Oh, and I don't think you should put a ceiling generator in the sky section. However, be sure to put them in pipe entrances, since they only activate once players come to that screen.


Everyone else, if I've missed something or said something incorrect about sprite insertion, please correct me- I've never worked extensively with custom sprites before :p

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-Not quoting all that-

Putting in fish requires buoyancy, which causes alot of slowdown with how the sprites are set up right now.

I do like to hear from other people also. I really appreciate how much time you put in these reviews, but a single opinion isn't anough. Should I post in the main "Level Testing" thread?

I need the ceiling generator for level F, because you can jump over the wall in the second part of the level. I don't know why anyone would do that, but Milk told me it's necessary.

New version: 2-5

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Violators will be prosecutedt to the full extent of the jam.
I haven't had a chance to do any SMWCP2 level testing in the past few days and so, haven't had a chance as of yet to look at you're latest iterations. However, just a couple things I can jump on real quick:

Originally posted by AxemJinx
I'd also like others' opinions on the midway bar placement. Do any of you think it's easy to miss, or is it fine?

Assuming the bar is still wedged between the hills in Level 30 - yea, I sort of found that to be a little odd myself. I think it's cool to try and integrate the midpoint into the geography in a creative fashion, but without the striped poles, it can be an easy miss.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Oh, and I don't think you should put a ceiling generator in the sky section.

I second this. I think the generator should only appear in Level F; not in Level 30 since you have a lot more platforming happening near the top of the screen in that area.

Originally posted by agie777
I need the ceiling generator for level F, because you can jump over the wall in the second part of the level. I don't know why anyone would do that, but Milk told me it's necessary.

I wouldn't say the generator is really to prevent people from jumping the wall from the backside - you're right, why would anyone do that? But I think it's very necessary to prevent cape flight from the starting area over the wall and into the final section. I can only assume the feather will be available at some point early on and seeing that there is obviously a path beyond the pipe, it allows a situation where someone could easily skip over half the level.
Might as well link to my review-or-something again.

By the way, would you like me/someone to edit the thread title? You said you didn't want to use "Canopy Clash" after all, so...

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