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Tip: Try sketching out ideas for overworlds and levels. Even if they don't manage to fit into Lunar Magic completely, at least you have a base to work from, instead of doing it all from scratch.
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018: Tourou Temple - Hadron
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 3 - 018: Tourou Temple - Hadron
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Yeah, I kinda guessed it won't be so easy to design...I feel I somewhat rushed it anyway, I've never done a level like this before. I guess I'll need a bit more help on that part, yeah.

So, do you think other kind of enemies would make it better? I've thought on Super Koopas (or maybe jumping fishes), but yeah, I rather went with the "standard" enemies. It might work, actually.

EDIT: I've uploaded the current picture of the lantern boat part for future reference.
The slippy interaction can be countered with Movement Blocks. Again, this is something that I have to guess can be fixed with a patch, but I'm not sure, and to be honest, I've never looked into Layer 1/Layer 2 interaction in all.log. But, yea, Movement Blocks do work - I've used them on rafting levels in the past. There is a slight jog performed by Mario when he first comes in contact with them, and sprites come off as a little funky (basically will walk in place), but overall, Mario will no longer have that "slippy" effect and the side effects are far less detrimental overall.

I'm guessing you're using Slow Auto Scroll. If so, you'll want a block that moves Mario right by 1 pixel every two frames (the old Slow blocks from the original BT). This will allow Mario free movement on the boat outside of the initial jog without worry of being swept away by the autoscroll itself.

As far as the level/sprite usage: based on what I'm seeing here I think it's safe to say that we will have pretty different setups. One question though: do you have any intent to use the large Green Bubbles that 2dareduck suggested? Wondering since I've actually thought of using those since it would fit in with some of the swamp gas effects I'm using. But again, I don't want our areas to feel too similar and will look into other ideas if need be.
Hey Hadron, i've updated the dragon lantern boat, if you want it, i can send you the bin and pal files.

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You might want to know that I'm porting Axem's song.
Here's how it's going so far. I'd like some criticism, please!

Check out my music!
@Milk: oh, I didn't even think of Movement Blocks, you're right, I could use them (although, all of this will be pretty new for me, but hey - at least I'm learning something). I'll try the "Slow" blocks, I guess, yeah, I have the "Slow Auto Scroll" sprite (as you can see in the image).

Also, I don't think our levels will be similar at all, I don't know if I'll use the Green Bubbles or not. I think they wouldn't really fit to the whole 'oriental' feel (if there is a feel, actually..). I definitely want to use Boos and Ninjas though (I should overuse them, though), since these are/will be redrawn to something different.

@TheGamer: sorry for the smiley, but..

This looks fabulous! Really amazing job you've done there. I didn't even know you were redrawing Snifit's boat. Amazing. Yeah, go ahead and send me the stuff (I hope the files still have some space for future smaller stuff).

@Moose: yay, it's finally "under contsruction"! I can't really find anything to criticize, maybe except the first few seconds could use "longer notes" or stronger echo (well, compared to the mp3 version). Other than that, I'm sorry, but I find it a really awesome work! If you don't feel like it, I could help with looping the song (at least something I'm good at, heh).

So yeah, thanks for all the great stuff, guys!
hah hah, i'm really glad you liked it =)
it's just a redraw, so it don't take more tiles then what it already have.

Also, it seems i deleted 1 tile in the dragon head bin file, you may want to add it to the bin before replacing the files.

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18 Just a couple of comments here.

In general, most of the chucks you use here are on the lower paths, which makes it easy in some places for players to use the upper platforms to dodge enemies. This also makes the chuck on screen 4 stand out a bit to me, because it seems like the only tricky one. I'm wondering whether you should move the chuck on screen 7 on top of that horizontal pipe- though I admit, that's a minor thing, probably :b This isn't really a big deal for the first area, but for the last area, you might consider making it a bit harder to jump over stuff with higher platforms, is all. I also bring this point up because it seems to hamper the second section a lot.

Also, the upper platform on screen B makes me think that there are two paths, especially with the two coins and the lower pipe there, but since there's nothing, that formation kind of confuses me, especially since the pipes come very low all of a sudden. That might just be my impression, though.

It's hard to control for Mario's movement here because there are three tiers of platforms on the boat, the highest of which is quite close to the top of the screen. So again, what's to prevent players from just jumping over everything by staying high? If you're going to keep the boat the way it is, I think you need an enemy to discourage camping the highest point- something that swoops down like a super koopa or appears suddenly like a bullet bill. It doesn't have to be those enemies specifically- think in terms of movement here. Since the boat has three tiers, you want to discourage players from spamming that one safe spot and rather move around between them to avoid obstacles. In that sense, the same pitchin' ninja chucks you've been using might be a good fit in this area as well. If you think that borders on overusage, you can vary some sprites in the first section. This is all just one alternative, though.

Also, personally I'd discourage boo circles, because by the time they make one full rotation, the camera has already scrolled past them, meaning that if players are in the wrong place at the wrong time, it can become quite difficult not to take a hit.

Fish might be a good idea- both the ones that move back/forth and jump, and the ones that hop->skip->jump while moving forward (if they work properly in a scrolling area). Just don't overuse them, or players will never touch the bottom of the boat if they can help it. Actually, you could also use a brief fish generator to prevent people from spamming the upper tiers as well. There are plenty of possibilities here- make players move around.

@Moose: I agree with Hadron that the slap bass (@14) should have more drawn-out notes if possible (or is it echo? reverb? something?); right now the shorter notes feel a bit too crisp and short, so it takes away from the ambiance a bit (or maybe that isn't the problem, but something about that instrument just feels a bit iffy in spots >_<). I'm also wondering but not sure if the bass section (including distortion guitar, so @4 and @17) should have just slightly lower volume and/or sound just slightly softer. The tempo could probably be just a tiny bit slower. It's too bad that the drum sounds resulting from the resampling in FLStudio are so tough to reproduce, especially the really low bass drum that makes a "dojo-ish" sound, but that's not your fault, so don't worry about it :b But anyway, wow, that's sounding really good, Moose! Definitely a lot better than what I came up with in the beginning. Thanks so much for helping with the port ^_^

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Haha, thanks for the great help there, Axem, you never cease to amaze me with your level design advices. ^_^ I see you points and I tried to fix these problems, here's a new version:

v0.2 ips

Made both parts a bit trickier but do tell me if you think they are too hard. Inserted TheGamer's boat as well (thanks again!).
Thanks a lot in advance.
Wow, Hadron, that's a lot better! You may have only made small modifications in the first section, but I think it made a big difference. Now the chucks pose a bit more of a threat without overdoing it. Just one thing: the chuck on the 9/A border does jump up to the staircase, which makes things considerably more difficult unless you have a fire flower or shell (well, I guess you could also jump from the platform on screen 9); I wonder if you should shift that staircase to the left by one tile so the chuck stays perched on the powerup block (Just a suggestion, I'm not really sure given the above parenthetical)?

The boat section is just a hundred times better. I actually really enjoyed going through it and moving between the different parts of the boat, so I was genuinely surprised. Using the bamboo to cut off the top platform is an elegant way of solving that problem, and the question blocks might make players think "Oh, maybe there's a powerup in there," but then they have to dodge more enemies to get there. The section seems to ramp up slightly in tension toward the end thanks to the pitchin' chuck + super koopa combo, and it feels great to me. I can't say whether or not it's too hard in spots until the slowdown is (hopefully) fixed by the FastROM patch, but...this is the castle stage, so I'm not particularly worried about it.

I also ran into a strange bug where the game froze because I powered down from a fire flower while half off-screen at the top of the raft section, but I have no idea what the cause could be :b Oh, and Mario still moves forward even when the boat stops, which felt a bit weird.

Anyway, this is looking really good now, and I'm looking forward to what the last section will do.

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Yay, I'm glad you like this version much better. :) Okay, I've just moved the staircase a little bit, I didn't even notice that the Chuck can escape that way.

Also, I'm happy to hear the boat part is better now. I've just tested the level after patching FastROM on the ROM, and it seems we don't have to worry about slowdown.

That bug sounds very weird, it never happened to me. O_o Hopefully it won't happen to others...

I'll most likely start the third part tomorrow, although I still need the Buddha statues + Thomwp redraws (the Buddha statues' heads), I hope someone will be able to draw some cool stuff for that part.


Pretty good update. The 2nd part is by far the best part execpt the slow down which by what i've
read is not a problem with some patch or something. Also i found that the koopas posed no threat
since i spent my time on the 2nd or 3rd levels of the boat.

Originally posted by Me in the SMWCP2 Soundtrack thread
Guess who finished porting a song?

I made it as great-sounding as I could with your suggestions, Axem. Hope you like it!

Yeah. I'm finished and I've already sent it to S.N.N.
Go crazy (I like your level, BTW).

Check out my music!
Oh, thanks for the awesome port, Moose. I really appreciate your work, and I think it will fit to my level pretty well.

Also, good news! I've finally finished designing the third part of my level, as TheGamer has finished the Buddha statue graphics (thanks again, they are really awesome!). So basically, my level is done, now I'm just waiting for beta testing, thoughts, suggestions:

v0.4 IPS

Also, here's a picture of the third part for future reference.
I hope you like the level, and thanks for testing!
One thing I'm a little concerned about is that the buddha heads can be killed with shells, and they don't fall from very high up, so they don't seem very threatening. If possible, perhaps you could use other sprites in combination with them? For example, you could place a pitchin' chuck on the bamboo pipe on screen 3 or somewhere among the three heads on screens 5-6, and/or throw a couple of super koopas in there or whatever you think would work. I just don't want the third part to feel anticlimactic after the boat area.

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I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

Palette 6 shenanigans. Disable LM's level palette animation.

There's some slowdown here.

Note the Flower's stem.

More slowdown.

Mario and any sprites that interact with the ground will sill move on the boat when it's came to a stop. Is there a way to make these blocks stop functioning when the auto-scroll came to a stop or when they're on a certain screen number?

Checkpoint resets me here. Level 18 doesn't use screens C-F, so it should be an easy fix.

That's a pretty wide jump for World 3, don't ya think?

Other than more Palette 6 shenanigans, where is this door supposed to lead to?

Overall, the level is pretty good. It could use some fine-tuning to make it even better, but still. You shouldn't have much trouble getting this level cleared.

Fun level overall. The atmosphere is especially great, and TheGamer did an amazing job on both the boat and the Buddha statues. Everything I've wanted to point out has already been spotted, except for one minor thing that bugged me:

I don't know why, but I feel that this guy's placement is really quite difficult, especially for the beginning of the level. It took me about 3-4 attempts to get over him without getting hit, whereas nothing else in the level really had that kind of effect on me.

But yeah. Aside from that and the stuff mentioned, this is a very good level. I'm assuming that door at the end will lead to the boss (in which case I'd recommend moving the midway to the start of the boat room, and then putting a second midway at the door).

Fix those bugs up, and I'll clear this into the ROM for you.
Alright, thanks for the comments, guys.

@Axem: you're right, I've added some Pitchin' Chucks there, I think that part is a bit more exciting now.


Palette 6 shenanigans. Disable LM's level palette animation.

Ah, yes, I forgot that. Thanks for noticing.

There's some slowdown here.

Tried to delete or move some sprites for less slowdown, hope it works...I'm not sure if the level would be different with the FastROM patch.

Note the Flower's stem.

Oh yes, I forgot to change it was because of the Ninja Chucks' palette. Fixed.

Mario and any sprites that interact with the ground will sill move on the boat when it's came to a stop. Is there a way to make these blocks stop functioning when the auto-scroll came to a stop or when they're on a certain screen number?

Yeah, I've noticed that one too, but I'm not sure we could do something with it (although yes, it's pretty weird). I don't know any ASM, but we could try to make a block that stops functioning after x seconds/screens, or something like this.

Checkpoint resets me here. Level 18 doesn't use screens C-F, so it should be an easy fix.

I forgot to mention that, I'm not really sure about the midway point yet. Originally I planned that the midway would come after the lantern boat part, and the Multiple Midway Points patch would lead instantly to the third part (where Mario comes out of the pipe).
I don't know, are more midway points needed for this level? I have no idea what the boss will be like, but I assume it won't be too hard. But SNN's idea for midway points could work too.

That's a pretty wide jump for World 3, don't ya think?

Alrighty, fixed.

Other than more Palette 6 shenanigans, where is this door supposed to lead to?

Another thing I forgot to mention, yeah, that door is supposed to be the boss door, it currently leads to F2, but I guess the boss maker will make his own room for that.

Overall, thanks for the comments.

@S.N.N.: Thanks! Yeah, I was aware the dude in the very beginning is too hard, so I moved him a bit further. I think it's a bit easier now, but give me suggestions if you have a better idea.

Also, here's the (hopefully) fixed version, in case you want to try it.
Looking pretty good- I like the changes you made to the third area. I only have two more fairly minor suggestions, and you can decide whether to follow them or not.

2, upper ledge: Might be a good place for a hidden 1up block.

5/6: Might be a good place for a super koopa or two, or maybe even a sumo bro (if it doesn't cause slowdown, of course). I noticed that you increased the concentration of bamboo ceiling spikes, though, which is also a good idea, so I leave it up to you :b

Edit: Does the multiple midways patch use large tables, such that if a level had three midways it would subsequently waste a lot of space? If so, I'm not sure where to put the first midpoint. I suppose before the boat section is best, because otherwise the boss midpoint would probably come too soon after the first one. Still, the boat section is slow-paced, and if players have to repeat it too many times...I'm not sure :b

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Nice to see the Buddha graphics in use =)
Glad you liked them too, i'm no good at giving a big wall of text of criticism, so i'll just say that i liked the level a lot, it's very fun and well designed.
Also, i thought the head would fall until the body, not from the body. And the body being solid. But i think this way looks more interesting =)

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@Axem: ah, good ideas, added the hidden 1UP block and a few Super Koopas.
Also, I decided to go with SNN's and your midway point idea, I guess it'll be good this way.

@TheGamer: thanks! Yeah, I originally imagined them this way, since I thought it can be pretty surprising and funky to see the heads falling down on the ground. Thanks again for the fantastic graphics. :)

Also, I've just sent the level, graphics, Map16 pages to SNN, so I think my level is basically done. Hip hip hurray. Thanks again to everyone who helped!
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Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 3 - 018: Tourou Temple - Hadron

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