Banner
Views: 814,274,692
Time:
28 users online: Amine Retro, BootaNoBijuu, chickaDEE Magazine, DPBOX,  E-man38, gohkeenytp, HammerBrother, Knosic, Koopster, Lui, MANGOMILK, MarcosMoutta,  Nameless, NathanWarford, NikSik1, Nirv, PPDude, Ragey, Rykon-V73, SammmUuU, Skystarmania, SquidMan_Raps,  Tamaki, teotaylor, Teows, TheSpeedyJay, WhiteYoshiEgg, YellowZealot - Guests: 77 - Bots: 170 Users: 43,002 (2,135 active)
Latest: just a random person
Tip: Unique level names aren't necessary, but they're a plus.Not logged in.
122: Lava Lift Lair - Aja
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 8 - 122: Lava Lift Lair - Aja
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 »
Honestly, I'd recommend just removing the lava puddles entirely/replacing them with pits. Pretty much everyone who's tested the level seems to regard them as a bad idea; the last thing the player needs in an area which demands semi-continual movement + a fair amount of both speed an accuracy is hard-to-spot instant death tiles--they should either be unmistakable or not be there at all. And they don't even look particularly good even as decoration, anyway.

A few more things:



- The player's first instinct in this level is to jump over the pit. However, this Podoboo jumps out exactly at the moment the player would normally do that. There is, moreover, no way the player could expect this the first time, and they may likely forget on subsequent playthroughs after making it through much of the level, making for some cheap, start-o-the-stage deaths.



- If this Fire Bro decides to fire off two shots in a row (as he quite frequently does, Mario is almost forced to take a hit (barring some fancy lava swimming). He can't stay on the upper platform, as the lava forces him down, an if mon frère is attacking, Mario may be unable to get the drop on him before the lava makes this unfeasible. Add to this the fact that there's no powerup post-midpoint (or anywhere at all in the second half of the stage, for that), denying even the possibility of just tanking the hit, and things are off the a somewhat frustrating start.

- Speaking of which, there should probably be some powerups in the second half of the stage, no? With the ever-present threat of magma-y instant death, it seems appropriate to allow the play to take a spare hit or two from the normal obstacles.



- I died about a gazillion times from the extremely hard-too-see firey excrement the hopping flame leaves behind. Note how hard it is to see even in the above image. It blends in far toowell with the layer 3 BG, at least in this particular spot.



Didn't know the layout of this part ahead of time? In that case, it's curtains (of lava) for you, as stopping here for the briefest moment is most likely fatal.



Putting a semi-hidden hopping flame a top a ledge at such a point where it it jumps right in the player's path at a section where they're likely running like made (for so the level encourages in the obstacle immediately before) again seems to be asking for more precognition.



This part is a bit horrific. The fire-feces from the hopping flame mentioned above effectively prevents the player from advancing until the lava is moving down, at which point it's insanely difficult to avoid the plants. What's more, the player has no reason to expect the area between the pipes to contain instant death--indeed, due to the above situation, it seems as though these are the only safe spots as the lava descends. Maybe they should be safe spots (or at least the area between the first and second pipe should) in light of this.
I just played through the level, and I could beat it without savestares in 20-30 minutes, honestly I think the difficulty is ok as it is right now, I already decreased it enough during the testing and I don't want to decrease it much more. I didn't find many of the issues you mentioned except for the one with the podoboo at the beginning and maybe the segment with the piranha plants. You can argue the level is easier for be because I'm the creator, but I have barely played this level since it was finished, which was over a year and a half ago, so I'm not as familiarized with this level as you may think.

The fire bro obstacle is really easy to overcome, you just need to jump on him (spin jump if necessary) from the upper platform, which is perfectly possible, and the other obstacles you mentioned are easy to overcome with patience, right trimming and low jumping. Also, there IS a powerup in the second area, it's hidden next to the last SMWCP2 coin.

About the lava puddles, I don't really want to remove them, but if most people think they'd be better as holes then I'll change them. I'll submit a new version that fixes that and maybe a few other things at some point during next week.
Originally posted by aj6666
I just played through the level, and I could beat it without savestares in 20-30 minutes, honestly I think the difficulty is ok as it is right now, I already decreased it enough during the testing and I don't want to decrease it much more.

You do realize that spending 20-30 minutes on a single level is excessive, right? ._.


<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money

Remember, people! Telepathy is a wooonderful magic!

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

Originally posted by aj6666
I just played through the level, and I could beat it without savestares in 20-30 minutes, honestly I think the difficulty is ok as it is right now,


20-30 minutes to complete your own level, even counting in failures and unfamiliarity, is not a good sign, to say the least.

Quote
I already decreased it enough during the testing and I don't want to decrease it much more. I didn't find many of the issues you mentioned except for the one with the podoboo at the beginning and maybe the segment with the piranha plants.


You're the author of this. Let playtesters, unless they're incompetent at SMW, be the judge of if you hit or miss. A lot of the second half does feel like you expect the author to know as much of the level as you do and the way the level is structured doesn't really give them the luxury of time like that.

It's sink or swim, in a way.

The fire bro obstacle is really easy to overcome, you just need to jump on him (spin jump if necessary) from the upper platform, which is perfectly possible, and the other obstacles you mentioned are easy to overcome with patience, right trimming and low jumping.

Quote
Also, there IS a powerup in the second area, it's hidden next to the last SMWCP2 coin.


Yes, on screen 05 (with backtracking) in a slower paced sublevel where a lot of the level is literally out to get you.

Stuff. Just insert the MWLs into your ROM, I didn't change anything else.

The level should be fine like this, changing more stuff would make it too easy for world 7. 20 minutes is generally what it takes me to beat levels in the final world in regular hacks, and some levels take even more time than that. Try playing any regular hack without savestates and you'll see what I mean.

Also, MDP, as I said being the author of the level doesn't change anything since I haven't touched this in a long time, other that knowing there was a hidden mushroom (which is not hidden anymore, by the way), at this point I'm pretty much just another regular player.

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

20 minutes mainly applies to a blind run, if that's what you're trying to get to.

Quote
Also, MrDeePay, as I said being the author of the level doesn't change anything since I haven't touched this in a long time, other that knowing there was a hidden mushroom (which is not hidden anymore, by the way), at this point I'm pretty much just another regular player.


On screen 06 in a slower paced sublevel where a lot of the level is literally out to get you. Here's your item distribution based on your entrance/exit settings.

00 (start, faster paced) --> 03 (Tier 2) --> 0A (Tier 2) --> 0E (Checkpoint/Pipe) --> 00 (next sublevel, slower pace) --> 06 (Tier 1) --> 0B (Pipe) --> 11/12 (Goal).

What I'm saying is that there should be a power-up somewhere between 0E on 122 and 01/02 of 5A; a Yellow Switch Block (or another Mushroom) if you must. No, midpoints don't count because those only work once and there's a fair chance that their power-up abilities will go away based on the midway blocks being used.

Additionally, the fact that you used FIRE Jumping Piranha Plants- three of them with little space to work with- near the end of the level, especially when their fireballs can be easily obscured by the ceiling lava is as if you're begging for the player to spout "That was a cheap hit, how was I supposed to know that was going to happen!?"

Originally posted by MrDeePay
No, midpoints don't count because those only work once and there's a fair chance that their power-up abilities will go away based on the midway blocks being used.

Midpoints are actually more helpful that powerups because they allow you to restart the level from that point.

Right now, I don't think another powerup is necessary, the first six screens of the sublevel aren't that hard to go through and it's not that long either even if the level is slower paced. RN's complaint was about not being powerups at all in the second sublevel, which is pretty much solved by placing the mushroom in the way instead of hidding it.

If the problem are the Junpin' Piranha plants that spit fire, I can replace them by non-fire spitting ones.

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

Quote
Midpoints are actually more helpful that powerups because they allow you to restart the level from that point.


Which was not the point I was trying to make.

Quote
Right now, I don't think another powerup is necessary, the first six screens of the sublevel aren't that hard to go through and it's not that long either even if the level is slower paced. RN's complaint was about not being powerups at all in the second sublevel, which is pretty much solved by placing the mushroom in the way instead of hidding it.


Rameau is just one person. Just because one person says/chooses to say something doesn't mean others will feel the same way.

What counts as far as powerups are concerned is not merely the type and number available, but how they're distributed throughout the level--a refreshing mushroom to reinvigorate our hero partway through a tricky level can by itself be the difference between a challenging but enjoyable stage and one that feels a frustrating slog. While it can sometimes be a little tricky to decide just how many powerups are appropriate in a level (especially a level intended to be difficult) and where to put them, a good (if very rough and generalized) rule of thumb is to have two per level half--one near the start, one near the midpoint, and one half way between the start and midpoint and one half way between the midpoint and end. You follow precisely this rule in 122, and it works quite well--though the level has lots of dangerous enemies and a few spots that expect the player to move and react quickly, the powerups are arranged in such a way that the player gets an extra hit at the beginning to start things off, and another one part way through the sublevel to allow them to catch their second wind. This is an example of good powerup distribution, and allows the sublevel to be difficult but still enjoyable.

The second half, on the other hand, starts the player off without a powerup of any sort (beyond the first time they hit the midpoint), and does not offer another until about halfway through, leaving them "exhausted" for a good portion of it. The level itself is furthermore takes place in a crowded corridor with a moving, insta-death ceiling and floor, and has a fixed but variable pace--the lava floors and ceiling result in the player being forced at different points to either speed up or slow down (without the player always being able to guess which) or perish. With the constant threat of instant death from the lava ceiling, the player often has to act without having much of a chance to observe or consider their next step--which means they'll sometimes need to choose between taking a hit or dying outright. By having only one powerup halfway through, however, taking a hit and dying outright become the exact same thing. Which makes the level feel frustrating, as it adds "damned if you do, damned if you don't" factor--there's no less bad option, as every and all mistakes lead to immediate death.

I think the best solution would be to simply add a mushroom (or yellow switch block) right next to the midpoint, as MrDeePay suggests above. This prevents the possibility of second-tiering from the midpoint, if such is your concern (though I don't really think there's anything wrong with allowing the player to be slightly more powerful the first time they play through the second half of the level, since they'll be going into it not knowing what to suspect), while still allowing them to take at least one hit on the first five screens of 5A (which I think are a bit more difficult than you're giving them credit for). The powerup on screen 06, as it currently stands, is perfect for allowing the player to get their second wind, but I might actually recommend changing it to question block containing a flower. Why? Because, although for a players that get hit in the first half of the sublevel (and this will be most of your audience), it will have the same effect as it does now--a humble mushroom, just enough to let them catch their second wind. But for those players (and only those layers) who are skilled enough to avoid getting hit at all up to this point, it will allow them two hits. This means the player is not merely punished for playing poorly, but also actively rewarded for playing well. And that's the sort of thing that encourages a play to try to play well, as not goofing up early on makes your life slightly easier later down the line.
Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
a good (if very rough and generalized) rule of thumb is to have two per level half--one near the start, one near the midpoint, and one half way between the start and midpoint and one half way between the midpoint and end.

I don't agree with the idea of level design rules, these things depend pretty much on every level.

Though, if you think I should have another powerup I can place eiher a yellow switch palace block or a hidden mushroom near the midpoint, because I still don't think another mushroom is necessary, and I don't like adding powerups next to midpoints.
<Incognito> oh hey i remember doing a palette for lava lift lair
<Incognito> should dig that one up again



<Incognito> there you go
<Incognito> yeah, considering this is more of a "red-hot" level than volcanic panic(which has plants and should therefore look more fertile), i think this is a suitable palette for it

I honestly think every level should have an unique palette - as this one uses the same as Volcanic Panic, while still having a different theme, it does not fulfill that criteria and that should be fixed.

--------------------
aran - Graces of Heaven
Would you mind posting a link to that palette?
The site seems to be down, check back in a little bit.

e: palette

--------------------
aran - Graces of Heaven
Apologies for the delay.

Here is the level with the YSP block and GN's palette.
To Aja:

This level has been edited, but it's mostly just edits to the aesthetics and small level design changes. This is what has changed...

-Background has been changed due to the carnival background being redrawn by me.
-Foreground now uses the tileset found in the second half in the first half as well. I revamped that tileset so it looked a lot more pleasing to look at, and so it could be used in Smoldering Shrine as well, to give both levels more of their own unique identities.
-The first half of the level has had a few sprites removed in order to give the player a bit more breathing space. The second half is fine, though.
-Magnificent Magma Mural plays instead of Overburn. It seems to fit the level a bit better, since MMM is a song about lava, and...well, the level name checks out.
Come help save Super Mario World Central Production 2 here!
Those changes are fine by me. Thanks for letting me know.
Not a problem, Aja.


Oh, and since I didn't show earlier, here's the improved tileset, with the new palette based on the palette of the second half. There's an alternate palette for Smoldering Shrine, but I'll show that once I get to finishing that level.
Come help save Super Mario World Central Production 2 here!
Pages: « 1 2 »
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 8 - 122: Lava Lift Lair - Aja

The purpose of this site is not to distribute copyrighted material, but to honor one of our favourite games.

Copyright © 2005 - 2020 - SMW Central
Legal Information - Privacy Policy - Link To Us


Total queries: 16

Menu

Follow Us On

  • YouTube
  • Twitch
  • Twitter

Affiliates

  • Super Mario Bros. X Community
  • ROMhacking.net
  • Mario Fan Games Galaxy