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12B: Rusted Retribution - GeminiSunfall
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 9 - 12B: Rusted Retribution - GeminiSunfall
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Owner: GeminiSunfall

World: 9
Exits: 1
Theme: Factory Ghost House
Music Options: 1, 2, or compose your own.

Briefing: The beginning of the final world, as well as the final ghost house in the hack. Consider challenging (but not unfair or too brutal) gimmicks while at the same time incorporating an industrial undertone.
Awesome.

I've already made a couple things for this level when I reserved it, but I feel it is first necessary to explain where I'm going here.


This level is based off of my idea of this area being one of Norveg's oldest manufactories, Sector 0A, built before safety standards were enforced for the workplace environment. Over time, many workplace injuries--often fatal--occured in this place as a result of the early, unsafe design of the machinery. As Norveg had set his sights upon the Mushroom Kingdom, he had neither the time nor the patience to concern himself with the depreciating condition of that workshop. So rather than renovating or demolishing Sector 0A, he simply ordered it to be shut down, never to be used again. After all, the Mushroom Kingdom would soon become part of his new industrial empire.

Behind the locked doors of Sector 0A, decrepit machines and architecture can be seen, rust forming on the metal and the paint peeling off. Amidst all the broken-down hardware, however, an unnatrual pressence dominates. The ghosts of deceased factory workers have risen, and claimed the abandoned workshop as their own. Every now and then, loud noises can be heard behind the doors of Sector 0A, but nobody has dared to investigate, for fear of what dangers lurk inside...

Mario's forray into Norveg's Factory apparently begins with him entering a dark, desolate room in this abandoned workshop. Surely, this cannot be Norveg's domain, can it?



So far, the level name I've got in mind is Rusted Retribution.
The music I plan to use? 2

As I described above, the level with have a theme of an abandoned workshop. For the most part, I plan to make this level a sort of maze, with several sublevels to help add more to the feel of this place and further complicate the maze. Enemies will be the standard Ghost House fare for the most part, but I have considered some customs, namely Anti-Boos and a couple others which I will probably request eventually.

I'll post some screenshots once I've finished some more of the graphics I plan on using here. I'm still trying to get a better rusted block than what I've got already.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
Your level concept has an engaging ambiance that ties into the game's story and brings to mind all sorts of possibilities, especially of the tricks n' traps variety...needless to say, I like how you've set the stage, and I'm looking forward to seeing more.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Some screenshots of what I've got so far.



The level starts off in a dark hall. Lets turn on the lights so we can see!



You'll find that this area is completely devoid of enemies--even the Bill Blasters don't seem to work. The only real hazards in this room involve spikes, some chain-hopping, and of course, the darkness itself. This area is quite short, however, and is simply a prelude for what's to come.



At the end of the dark hallway, the darkness goes away and you see that you've entered a vast, open room full of rusted rigs. You're also going to start seeing enemies from this point on. This will be the main area of the level that you'll be wandering around a lot, as it will be quite large and mazelike, not just with metal debris and traps, but also with doors and pipes that lead to other sublevels.

Those rusted-looking Turn Blocks are currently a placeholder for a type of fragile block I intend to use here, which breaks both from above (stepping on it) or below (jumping into it). I introduce a rather harmless example here so the player will understand what these blocks do when I use more of them later on.

The background is just a placeholder until I find something more suitable.



Speaking of sublevels, one of the sublevels I've been working on is a small Layer 2 tower (I was thinking maybe a smokestack tower?). You will not only need to keep an eye on the shifting girders, there will also be Boo Blocks in this room that need to be used. You'll find an item necessary for progress at the top.

I originally planned to use a sort of mini-maze of screen-scrolling pipes here (where a vertical tube has many entrances), but supposedly, we're not using them in SMWCP2, so I'll probably need to rethink my design here.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
Well, I can appreciate the mood you're trying to create with the dark area, but cramped chain-jumping around spikes don't excite me either...as long as it's not overly long, though, it should be fine. Just my take on it.

Breaking through rusted metal is a nice take on the breakable block.

Making a maze-like level as a counterpoint to all of the gauntlets we're likely to have might be a good idea, but try to not make things too labyrinthine or have too many sublevels-- we don't players to feel lost and/or lose interest. Of course, I'm not saying you're falling into any of these traps yet- just voicing some thoughts, is all.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Normally, I'd discourage an area that doesn't have any enemies, even if there are spikes and holes, but since you said it would be short I guess it’s ok. Just one thing though, the jump at the end of the second screenshot looks a bit hard to perform.

I have to say I really like the concept of your level, playing through an abandoned sector of the factory sounds fun.
The dark room that you start in is only four and a half screens long until you reach the door, I think that's enough screens for it to set the mood without being too long and thus, boring.

I intend to add more stuff to 12B past the entrance, which will be one of the "sublevels" along with the midway point. Maybe not with the dark room sprite, but who knows.

There's still much I need to do with this level, and I'm trying to be careful with designing this maze. One thing I should point out is that there will be items and such to find, and they will open up more of the maze to you, which I feel should create some sense of progress. The last item will likely be an ON/OFF switch, which I'd l'd like to have affect the lobby in numerous ways, but most importantly it opens up a way to the level exit.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
Just finished making one of the sublevels.

http://bin.smwcentral.net/u/10216/Level1DC.PNG

Some things to note.
-The Layer 2 is highlighted in this picture to distinguish it from the Layer 1 (as it's the same color normally). It shifts 8 tiles to the left and back to the right.
-There are no powerups in this room. Shouldn't be a problem unless you're not careful around Boos.
-All of the pipe entrances here will send you back to the main lobby. In particular, the second pipe from the bottom is more of a trap, though given this is a "ghost house" and there is clearly more of this area further up, most players should assume it's a bad idea to take the first exit they see.
-The P-Switch is to be used outside of this room. I feel that coin arrow pointing to the pipe should be a good hint in case the player didn't explore the lobby enough to know this.
-The first SMWC coin is at the very top of this room. Getting there requires doing some tricky climbing using the Boo Blocks as stepping stones, while watching out for the vertical girders.


Once I finish another sublevel and get the fragile blocks working, I'll probably make a test patch available.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
Might just be me, but the coin arrow's meaning does seem a little ambiguous. I mean, you have fake exit pipes lining the side, so players might think you're saying that's the "correct" pipe...then again, it is a ghost house, so I guess mixed messages are fair game? Hmm. Just an idea, but what if you had the p-switch at the arrow's tip? I think what's throwing me off, personally, is that the p-switch and arrow are separate entities.

It's nice to see a level that requires boo blocks to progress- maybe it's just me, but I don't remember many levels making extensive use of them.

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I was trying to think of a way to hint that you're supposed to take the P-Switch with you into a pipe rather than use it inside the tower (which would force the player to re-enter the room to get another). Then again, I did mention that some exploration would be a good idea for this level... so the arrow might not even be necessary at all.

Yes, Boo-Block levels certainly are rare among hacks. Boo-Block levels that involve Layer 2, even moreso, so I felt it would create an interesting gimmick to mix the two for this room.

Finally, I'm going to mention my ExGFX still has about 40 empty 8x8 spaces in it that could be used for some additional objects to improve the level. If anyone has an idea for anything objects I could add to my tileset that could work for this level, I'm open to ideas. What I've got so far include:
Rusted Blocks
Rusted Chains (based off of Pikerchu's ExGFX)
Rusted Turn Block
Deteriorated Climbing Fence
Steel Drum/Barrel
Smasher
Stairs
Spikes
Conveyor (need to get an ExAnimation working for this)

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
Okay folks, I'm finally ready to release a test patch for my level! But first, I give many thanks to leod and Koyuki for helping me with some ASM to help complete a few things here.

Rusted Retribution v0.1

Anyways, there are a few things I should note.
-The level north of the Ghost House is the Hub with all the powerups, etc.
-There are no switch palace blocks in my level.
-The standard Ghost House background is only a placeholder until a proper custom background is prepared. Either I or someone else will design this.
-The conveyor belts are supposed to be solid, but the block for those hasn't been inserted into the Base ROM (nor was I the one who signed up for it). So just ignore the fact you can go through them from below.
-The shattering effect for the fragile blocks doesn't appear in the Layer 2 tower. Not sure if I missed something here or what, but if it can be resolved, it would be appreciated.
-There is supposed to be a Goal Roulette in the last area that looks more high-tech, but it got removed when I added my sprites.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
This is a fantastic level, seriously. Who would have thought that an area so dead could be so full of life and personality?

What I enjoyed the most is that you interweaved the main room with the few side rooms and made ridiculously creative set-ups with the ON/OFF blocks. I also found it nice how you didn't go overboard on custom sprites and whatnot, but instead you grabbed a couple that could be considered "necessary" and crafted them into your design. I knew when you took this level that you would do well, and you certainly did not disappoint.

Sadly, every level has a few flaws, and this one is no exception. I guess the biggest thing I noticed is that the level can get quite long if you get lost. This wouldn't be too big of a deal, but powerups seem quite scarce. It may just me, but I only found two mushrooms throughout the entire level (well, I guess you could grab that one right after the midway again if you go back through the pipe or something). Granted, it IS the intro to the final main world, and as a whole it's not extremely difficult, so maybe I was just playing bad.

Anyway, screenshots.


I get what you're trying to do here with the warning labels, and it becomes obvious in the crusher section .. but seeing as how this is your first encounter with a bunch of fragile blocks over a suspicious looking pit, it would really prompt the player to check it out. Perhaps you could put some spikes or something at the bottom to indicate the danger labels? (After seeing the yellow/black lining in so many previous levels as regular ground, one wouldn't even think that it's warning you not to go down there).


This area is kind of easy compared to the rest of the level. Not sure if that was intended or not, but it might be worth putting another sprite or two here to bump up the difficulty a little bit.


I didn't actually know that the Spike enemy would hurt me when I jumped on him. I assumed it was just a palette swap of the regular SMB3 one, and not a full-on undead enemy.


-I assume that little girder piece was supposed to be broken (well, in this case, it's literally a cut-off tile, and it's the only one I saw in the level, so...)


Nitpicky: lower that row of blocks by a tile.


Nitpicky: graphical bug there.

It's a good sign when I have to fish for "bad" things to say about a level. I'm pleased your heart was in it as it really shows. Great work. It won't be long before I clear this one into the base.
Wow. I was expecting the reaction to be that it was a decent level, though that could just be my modesty kicking in... or whatever. Granted, I knew from the moment I claimed this level what theme I had in mind here and how I wanted to set up the general layout, so that worked in my favor as opposed to simply slapping together something on random whims. But it's great to know that this level is looking to be close to acceptance already. I'm still open for second opinions from other testers.

The ON/OFF blocks was actually something I came up with later in the level design, around 75% completion. I realized my main area, while somewhat large, didn't feel like much of a maze, and it could get a little boring given how often you pass through there. Sure, I could've added more trick pipes, but I didn't want this to become a Confusion Chambers. It also occured to me that simply using the ON/OFF block just to open a way to the goal was too simple, and not utilizing the blocks to their best potential. So I interweaved several screens of the area with OFF blocks to make new walls, and some ON blocks to create new openings and even a path to the third SMWC coin.

As for the issues you addressed...

Powerups and Level Length. Let me check... I placed a total of six powerup spots in the entire level.

-Two in the main area (1DB), one near where you first start and another near the red ON-block gate.
-Two in the midway section (12B). One's in that row of blocks you pointed out, while the other one is actually a hidden mushroom past three coins under the first staircase a bit earlier. If you actually went for those coins, you'd find it.
-Two in the crusher section (1DD), around where the Eerie generator activates. I provided them quite close together as this part gets difficult.

I didn't want to add too many powerups because of how they would respawn in the main area every time you wind up back there. As for getting lost, I actually consider that to be a good thing for a Ghost House level (or any kind of maze-type level) if the player is somewhat lost as was your case. If finding the way to the exit was too simple, then I had clearly done something wrong.

Warning Label. Resolved: I added spikes down there, and added labels around the first spike pit as well. Here's a little story though, when I first started this level, I originally considered using Pikerchu's ExGFX that he was using for his World 7 castle. When I actually tried to use his graphics, however, I found the tiles were just set up in such an unusual way that I could not make the object setups I wanted without inducing tons of cutoff or unnecessary gaps. So i drew up graphics of my own, and came up with what you see here. It didn't make sense to me to have warning labels everywhere though, except for something dangerous... which is where I got the idea of using them to indicate where smashers fall.

Level 1DC. There were more sprites here before when I was testing the Anti Boo. Maybe I should have left them there...

Level 12B, Midway Section. I moved those blocks down and fixed the cutoff (can't believe I didn't notice it before).
As for Spiketer, a friend of mine also tested this level and did the same thing you did; assumed it was just a palette swap and not an undead enemy. I guess the ghostly reskin (it has no legs...) just wasn't a good hint, so I'll most likely move the first message block down here and change it's message. Something like "The employees who used to work here are dead... Just like the rest of us..."

Level 1DD. Well, now I know it's glitched (and I had no intention of using Fishin' Boo here). Question is...



Should I use the standard sprite that should appear when hitting those blocks?



Or should I use this for the sprite, which actually looks like the ON/OFF block?


Once again, it's good to know my level is getting your approval and isn't something I should have to scrap like others have ended up becoming. I'm still waiting on the solid Conveyor Blocks however, as it was not my intention that I used the ledge-type conveyors that are normally found in SMW. Kipernal used the solid ones in his level, but it doesn't look like he actually submitted them for insertion into the Base ROM yet. Then again, I think I recall him saying they wouldn't work for other levels, though that could've just been the music conveyor block...

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
This stage looks quite decent. Will it get a custom background at a later time?
This level oozes personality, and I like how you took a few key enemy types- eerie shooters spiketers, and antiboos- and integrated them into the design without them feeling tacked-on. The level is a bit long (and I wonder whether two midpoints would be a good idea- the first one seems to come a bit early), but I never quite felt stuck, and there was always something to do, so the level structure mostly gets a thumbs-up from me. Perhaps most importantly, I didn't get an "item babysitting" vibe at all from this one.


I have two minor issues with 1DC. One, sometimes there's nothing on-screen that's visually moving on Layer 2. On screen 5 (bottom), for example, I just waited, without even having any moving objects to look at. Two, the boos have a tendency to bunch up, which can make climbing annoying. Neither of these detract all that much from the design, though, and I like that the area actually forces players to learn how to use boo blocks for once. I'm not sure I would add more enemies, because that would take away the focus from using the boo blocks to climb as opposed to other sprites. Just my take on it.


On a side note, for the spiketers, I'd rather you didn't use a message box to "hint at" whether or not they're stompable (unless it's worded carefully so as to not ruin the mood); I'd say a visual cue is best, even if it's just spiky hair or something. Undead =/= Nonstompable (Dry Bones, for example).


1DD: By the time I realized the first powerup was on the lower path, the eerie generator activated, making it very difficult to backtrack and get it. I'm also not sure why you have two powerups so close together, since there isn't an item reserve box...this one area felt a bit weird.


1DB, smwcoin: Uhh, what? After going through the section once with the on/off blocks switched, I travel a single screen backward for a smwcoin and come out six screens back in the main area, forcing me to go through the same exact part a second time?! Not only is that definitely not proportional, it also feels pretty cheap. I would have players come out at the bottom of screen 6 or 7, honestly.


1DF: The goal roulette had glitched graphics and dropped off the bottom of the screen for me...?


But anyway, it's levels like this and Milk's that come at a "crucial time" per se and leave me optimistic regarding the project's outcome, so good work.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
Originally posted by AxemJinx
The level is a bit long (and I wonder whether two midpoints would be a good idea- the first one seems to come a bit early


Maybe it was just because I have tested this level myself several times and I'm familiar with the layout, but placing the midway point further in felt to me like I was adding it too far into the level. I originally considered a second midway point, but I couldn't think of a good spot for it where it wouldn't be so close to the goal it's almost pointless.

Then again, I used to play Super Marisa World, which filled levels with multiple midway points, usually to keep certain segments from becoming too frustrating. I might take a leaf from that book and add the second midway starting in the crusher room if necessary.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
I have two minor issues with 1DC. One, sometimes there's nothing on-screen that's visually moving on Layer 2. On screen 5 (bottom), for example, I just waited, without even having any moving objects to look at. Two, the boos have a tendency to bunch up, which can make climbing annoying. Neither of these detract all that much from the design, though, and I like that the area actually forces players to learn how to use boo blocks for once.


It never really occured to me that every screen of a Layer 2 level should show some kind of layer movement, but I guess you've got a point; that one spot was a bit boring. Maybe I'll make the large girder above part of the Layer 2 (and make the above coin blocks Layer 1). As for boo clustering, this was something I noticed, but I didn't consider it to be too much of an issue, as any experiecned player, or certainly one who has gotten as far as World 8, should know how to control Boos after seeing them several times before.


Originally posted by AxemJinx
On a side note, for the spiketers, I'd rather you didn't use a message box to "hint at" whether or not they're stompable (unless it's worded carefully so as to not ruin the mood); I'd say a visual cue is best, even if it's just spiky hair or something. Undead =/= Nonstompable (Dry Bones, for example).


Good point there with the Dry Bones, though Spiketer's 16x16 sprite is quite limiting in terms of graphical edits to the head...

Originally posted by AxemJinx
1DD: By the time I realized the first powerup was on the lower path, the eerie generator activated, making it very difficult to backtrack and get it. I'm also not sure why you have two powerups so close together, since there isn't an item reserve box...this one area felt a bit weird.


I added a powerup to the begining of this segment where you see two coin blocks. But now I'm not quite sure which powerup to remove, the one in the parallel path or the one in the very next screen. The former kind of favors going back to grab it and makes the lower path more rewarding, but the latter almost defeats the purpose of a parallel path to begin with.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
1DB, smwcoin: Uhh, what? After going through the section once with the on/off blocks switched, I travel a single screen backward for a smwcoin and come out six screens back in the main area, forcing me to go through the same exact part a second time?! Not only is that definitely not proportional, it also feels pretty cheap. I would have players come out at the bottom of screen 6 or 7, honestly.


This is more of a fault on my end of working with what was there when I completed this room without actually thinking of the loop-around. Anyways, I moved the pipe to Screen 5, to the right of where the P-Switch was used.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
1DF: The goal roulette had glitched graphics and dropped off the bottom of the screen for me...?


This was beyond my control. I was thinking of putting a Goal Point Sphere in this spot, but then I might actually forget about it once the level is done and ready for insertion. The only reason it's glitched is because spritetool removed the Goal Roulette when I inserted the other custom sprites used in my level. This would've resolved itself once I sent the levels and resources over for insertion.

Meanwhile, I've also been kind of fixing some of the rust block arragements throughout the level so they don't extend into the bottom row of Lunar Magic. Since not everyone plays with ZSNES apparently and the Snes9x shows pixels of that bottom row, I'm going to play it safe and adjust the rust blocks a bit to avoid this issue. I'll have another version of this level up soon.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

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Originally posted by GeminiRage
Maybe it was just because I have tested this level myself several times and am familiar with the layout, but placing the midway point further in felt to me like I was adding it too far into the level. I originally considered a second midway point, but I couldn't think of a good spot for it where it wouldn't be so close to the goal it's almost pointless.

Then again, I used to play Super Marisa World, which filled levels with multiple midway points, usually to keep certain segments from becoming too frustrating. I might take a leaf from that book and add the second midway starting in the crusher room if necessary.


Yeah, the level is in dire need of a second checkpoint. Where it is now reminds me too much of Football Canyon (its checkpoint came way too early in the level) and your level could greatly benefit from putting it. Also I greatly dislike the Eerie generator in the piston room, as it makes making it through that level unscathed more luck-based than it should.

Okay, I finished addressing most of the issues, and have prepared an updated version of the level.

Rusted Retribution v0.2

I still haven't added any hints to the Spiketer's being harmful to jump on. I couldn't really think of a way to make them spiny-looking without squishing them down (and resulting in a rather hideous sprite), nor did I want to move the first info box.

I kept the Eerie Generator in the smasher room, but I pushed it back a screen so it doesn't start at the parallel path. I'll be honest though, that segment was nowhere near the unfairness that was Rupture in Reality; you're given considerable time to see them coming and considerable space to avoid them (except if you go for the item boxes). In any case, I usually get through that room just fine without savestates. If you still think it's too cheap, I'll just use Boos and normal Eerie spawns (Spiketers won't work because they'd glitch into the smashers).

Other changes... I fixed a few bits of cutoff and I moved the hanging girder in 1DB down a tile after realizing there was a somewhat blind jump that got me killed by a reflecting boo; what happened was I'd see him disappear below, but he'd bounce back up two seconds later... quite surprised that one didn't come up, but it's fixed now.

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My Let's Play channel (Current LP: Final Fantasy VI, MegaMari)
Originally posted by GeminiRage
I still haven't added any hints to the Spiketer's being harmful to jump on. I couldn't really think of a way to make them spiny-looking without squishing them down (and resulting in a rather hideous sprite), nor did I want to move the first info box.

This might be a dumb question, but is it necessary for them to be nonstompable in the first place? When I look at setups like screen D of 12B, I wonder whether they're a little more annoying than they have to be. Just an idea, though.

Originally posted by GeminiRage
I kept the Eerie Generator in the smasher room, but I pushed it back a screen so it doesn't start at the parallel path. I'll be honest though, that segment was nowhere near the unfairness that was Rupture in Reality; you're given considerable time to see them coming and considerable space to avoid them (except if you go for the item boxes).

I haven't played past World 4 in SMWCP, and I don't plan to return to the game anytime soon. In any case, though, it sounds like you liked the generator where it was, so why not tear down the dividing wall in a spot or two so the parallel paths aren't completely segregated? Then you could move the second powerup a bit further into the section- or even relocate it to the beginning, next to the midpoint.

By the way, the spiketer on screen 1/2 of that section just screams cheap to me, because it'll appear during the descent of a long jump and it will be very hard to dodge. Might just be a personal thing, but I don't like setups like these because they leave so little wiggle room for unsuspecting players.

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Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

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Originally posted by AxemJinx
Originally posted by GeminiRage
I kept the Eerie Generator in the smasher room, but I pushed it back a screen so it doesn't start at the parallel path. I'll be honest though, that segment was nowhere near the unfairness that was Rupture in Reality; you're given considerable time to see them coming and considerable space to avoid them (except if you go for the item boxes).

I haven't played past World 4 in SMWCP, and I don't plan to return to the game anytime soon.


To spare you the trouble/mercy, it was a level in World 8 that was utterly ridiculous in terms of difficulty. You don't hear much "hate" on the level usually because (1) they actually liked the level, (2) few people played it- whether giving up on the collab during World 2-4, (3) took the "normal" route in World 8, or (4) because of Raocow.
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I'll try out the updated version of this level now, so I'll try to make an edit when I'm done.

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