I already started this in the bonus world thread, but since I want this to become an official decision, I wanted to make a new thread for it.
As I stated, Kieran and I have been pretty much talking about this all night, and we came up with an idea that I pretty much couldn't resist posting about and hopefully convincing you all to agree with. Here is my proposition:
-Upon defeating the final boss, a path opens to what the player thinks is a bonus world. This would consist of 2-4 more levels in a secluded portion of the main map.
-Each level would seem normal, but they would contain a cryptic clue. These clues will not make sense alone, but together, they form a puzzle.
-At the end of these 2-4 levels, the path would circle back around to the pipe, leaving the player slightly confused and with a couple of clues (which now make sense) to work with.
-Upon deciphering the clues, they'd go to a level earlier in the hack and find a hidden area that they would have never found without the help of said clues. For convenience purposes, just in case people try to cheat and get in early, we can block this off until at least all of the "mock" bonus world levels are beaten.
-This hidden room would eventually lead to the abstract/dream submap. The goal of this is to make players go "oh, that wasn't much of a bonus world" and then completely slam them with this surprise of a second hidden world (as per Kieran's suggestion). This is a psychological trick, if you will, but the element of surprise, when executed well, is immensely effective (see: my Thirdspace speech in the other thread).
This, of course, allows us to have a couple more levels. It will also allow, as I said, the element of surprise. The SMWC coins could unlock the mock bonus world.
Thoughts?
I was thinking that maybe we could weave an untied end into the plot somehow. Something that will leave the players wondering, but which we seemingly just forget about and ignore. Maybe the real hidden world could be at the core of the earth or something, where Norveg would have his real evil plan concealed. Maybe it could be in the shape of subtle hints in the dialogue that he is working on something more than what we see in the "main storyline".
Ah, I remember so well finding the secret world of SMW so many years ago. It was an amazing feeling, a whole extra set of the toughest levels SMW had to offer, and then a really cool bonus for beating it. Then, more recently, I remember the Boo's World of DW:TLC and getting that same 'OH MY SOMETHING OR OTHER, A TON OF EXTRA AWESOME SECRET LEVELS FOUND FROM A RIDICULOUSLY WELL-HIDDEN SECRET!' feeling, also with a super cool bonus for beating it. I can't deny at all that I believe it would be a great addition to the hack.
Maybe it would be possible to pull a couple of stages from the current bonus world for use in this super secret area? Perhaps it wouldn't be too out of the question to just code in more possible levels? (I know nothing of the inner workings of the overworld)
Yeah, that sounds like a great thing to add, hopefully there wouldn't be too much backtracking required to make it practically possible at this point, too.
As FirePhoenix pointed out, it would have to be on the main map. Maybe it could be just a large patch of relatively inconspicuous, decorative looking land, but upon getting the super secret exit, something completely different would unfold.
Hm, and for a clue, maybe instead of a picture, and definitely instead of just a "go here and press left against a wall," type of clue, it could be a bit of a riddle that refers to a given level, where you must do something a little silly (i.e. jump over the midway point 5 times and stare at the sun until Mario goes blind) in one level, and then you can go on to the level actually containing the exit, where it would let you actually access said exit. Something a little more complex than just having to go in to a hidden wall or such would make it so it would be really, really hard to come across by accident. Though, that would remove the joy of those who actually would have found it totally at random.
Lots to be considered here, but I'd say it's definitely worth looking in to, those were some of the best times! Might be getting a little too overly excited about this, but it really does strike me as an awesome feature.
This sounds good in theory, but for this to work you need to be exact in execution.
That said, I think it would be cool if the "clues" would be coved up Easter Eggs (in game secrets) that are rewards to players based on their curiosity throughout the hack. (Like how the Warp Zone was to players who played SMB in 1985)
Maybe you have to collect all of Peach's ingredients to get a clue or something. (That is if we use them) In addition, maybe the cryptic clues should have something to do with the site?
And also would the two worlds have different themes?
Vic: We don't actually need to have new levels coded, there's a few unused levels in the rom.
I'm fully in support of this, I think it would be a great idea to include.
I'm fully in support of this.
It's like Demo world. One second there is a really cryptic clue (maybe hint) in a ghost house, and a quite creepy-ish level with a 666 timer in the next, and then BOOM, boo's world.
It makes the hack MORE interesting. But I would say making the cryptic hints hard to get to.
Like for example: You fly up at the beggining of the stage and there you go, CLUE.
It really is an amazing feeling. Though, in order for this to work, you MUST have a great execution. Make the clues hard to get. Make the level that the clues lead to be REALLY the last area you'd check.YOUR layout has been removed.
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A Mario and Luigi Story: The Universe's Star Demo 2:
Very interesting. I support the idea, especially that we leave a certain part of the plot unanswered until you go to world 9. It'd have to be executed well, so the average player could still have a chance of decoding the messages. I'm trying to think of a few ways the plot could continue into the special world while still making the player think he's beaten the game after world 8. Perhaps after the ending and you restart, you're outside the factory and notice the ground shaking, so you take shelter in some cave or dimension or something, where the 4 levels with the clues are to take you to the core or some "perfect" world Norveg is trying to create using the resources he was draining from the mushroom kingdom. That could fit in with the idea of Norveg having a grudge against the kingdom.
I've realized this was outdated.
If you're worried about people 'breaking into' the special world early, just do it like in Mighty YEAH: make the way to unlock it a series of really, really arbritary moves in a mostly featureless 'thing'.
And if you're worried that people would get the solution from outside the game - well, SMW had a special world you could access without beating the game. I don't see why the special world HAS to be post end-game; if anything that set-up tends to cheapen the 'real' endgame.
If we can think of a prize for beating the bonus world other than "OH MAN, I GET TO PLAY THE HARDEST FREAKING LEVELS EVER!" that would be great. Like how SMW gave you all those edited graphics for beating the bonus world, that was awesome. If we could think up something like that I think it would make people feel better for playing through the secret world.
Originally posted by raocow
And if you're worried that people would get the solution from outside the game - well, SMW had a special world you could access without beating the game. I don't see why the special world HAS to be post end-game; if anything that set-up tends to cheapen the 'real' endgame.
That's also a good point. I felt like the OW for SMWCP purposely kept you away from skipping too many levels. For instance, the secret exit to the first level let you "skip" some 5 worlds, but by the time you could get it, you had basically already gotten to the place it leads to, which really bugs me. In the original SMW, you could jump right to bowser's castle, and no one really had a problem with that. Completionists will still beat every level, and people who just want to say "I beat the game" can be all happy that they found out how to beat it fastest. Now, I'm not saying there should be something quite as easy as getting to Bowser's castle in SMW, but if there could be shortcut to skip more than like, 3 levels or so, I think it would really add to the dynamics of the game, and wouldn't feel like the game is keeping you down.
Way to spoil the biggest secret in the hack by revealing it to everyone.
Do you know Karoshi? In the End of many Levels stays END. But then you must find a secret and you'll get to the Next Level.
Originally posted by Rockythetigre
Do you know Karoshi? In the End of many Levels stays END. But then you must find a secret and you'll get to the Next Level.
And even on the actual end level there is a secret level within that.
Originally posted by HuFlungDu
That's also a good point. I felt like the OW for SMWCP purposely kept you away from skipping too many levels. For instance, the secret exit to the first level let you "skip" some 5 worlds, but by the time you could get it, you had basically already gotten to the place it leads to, which really bugs me.
To be honest, when I designed that shortcut, I really DID intend for it to be an actual shortcut that would be EXTREMELY difficult to complete. Hard to get that secret exit, and then the next two levels would be REALLY tough. Of course, FirePhoenix then threw Green ! Blocks in there just because it skipped all those worlds...but I don't blame him. That was his level, not mine. His choice, my fault. ...in fact, I think he asked me if that should've been done... I should've co-ordinated with other level designers or at least SNN better. :<
Also, as for the rest of the paths, that was VERY unintentional. Not much room, too much stuff I wanted to throw in. :/ Eh, whatever.
Back on-topic, I like the idea of the bonus world being unlocked through cryptic clues, but I'm not so sure having it basically be "The True Final World" that is an extension of the story is good. It's less "bonus" and "secret" then, and more DKC2 Lost World. That world wasn't a bonus or secret world, and the game actually told you up-front that you basically HAD to beat all the levels in it.
Honestly, I'd rather the entrance to the world not be blocked off until you beat the levels after the final one. Either have it be like NSMBWii World 9, or allow people to open it up earlier, please. Heck, why not have it like the secret world in Mario's Return? Put warps in certain worlds leading to special levels. If you beat them all, you open the path to the secret world.<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money
Whoops, I posted in the other thread before seeing this one.
Still...in addition to SNN's proposal here, what if we had Crash Bandicoot Warped-styled super-secret stages (say, one per world or every other world) that can only be accessed through unusual means?
-Grab these 20 coins in the correct order
-Finish the stage with the timer at xxx
-Get hit by this enemy
-Jump into this "bottomless" pit
-Use a bob-omb to blow up this landscape tile
-Melt all of the ice blocks here -Run over this roadsign with a motorcycle
Doing things like this would open secret paths from yellow-dot stages, leading to secret levels separate from the faux bonus world and the abstract world. If the player finds all of these AND goes through the two aforementioned bonus areas there will be an opportunity to access yet another tiny bonus world/area (maybe from the abstract world) with 1-3 levels. It might seem like an overdose, but I think if we have intertwining sets of secrets like this it will make the project awfully unique ^_^
I like both S.N.N./Kieran 's idea and AxemJinx's ideas. I always liked when you got to do something after winning the game, like in final fantasy, but I hated when that secret ended there, but FF5 did the thing where you got an awsome new job class for beating the neww secret final boss (although I have YET to get said job).
Also, mabye you could get something fun for getting "100%", like an Achievment award level that is very satisfying, like the certifericate for completing the pokedex in every pokemon game, but nowhere near as impossible to get.Jujubes!¡!¡!
Also, still alive, just lost in life stuff last edited March 7th
Originally posted by AxemJinx
-Grab these 20 coins in the correct order
-Finish the stage with the timer at xxx
-Get hit by this enemy
-Jump into this "bottomless" pit
-Use a bob-omb to blow up this landscape tile
-Melt all of the ice blocks here -Run over this roadsign with a motorcycle
Doing things like this would open secret paths from yellow-dot stages
no offense but this is kind of design philosophy has always been sort of retarded.
Come to think of it, Raocow, you're right about that. I guess I got overexcited in the brainstorming phase and forgot to really evaluate the more retarded parts of that idea ^_^;
But yeah, that's probably the least important aspect. I just like the idea of accessing bonus levels in completely unexpected ways, in addition to the kind of bonus stages you unlock by collecting stuff you expect to be there (i.e. smwc coins).Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
I don't know if it is possible but maybe could be something like Krematoa in DKC3, where you have to do a secret pattern of moves in the OW and the the screen starts shaking and the path to the real secret world appears.
Progress:
not so NEW progress! (56.25% done) [18/32]
... Why the first level of like every hack has a shooting pipe.
How about with the magic of events, we make this little secret in the level only available after a certain prerequisite. For example, people still seem to support the idea of peach cooking things via her recipes? Well perhaps in those postgame levels, the secrets actually tell you where to find the cleverly hidden cooking ingredients, but only after you receive the recipe for them. You could avoid early access by putting the recipe in one of those postgame levels. Now, if the special world ties in with the plot, then that would work best. If not, then you can restrict early access to a smaller extent by making the recipe in a later world. Back to the peach thing, once you get the recipe and the few ingredients, peach makes something (an explosive? ) and you enter the special world.