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World 9 Final Boss: Norveg - p4plus2 [ASM] Alessio [GFX]
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 9 - World 9 Final Boss: Norveg - p4plus2 [ASM] Alessio [GFX]
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Originally posted by Riolu180
Thoughts on Final Level


Then on with the Original long epic section.

You know, that is a pretty good idea! But what would you do to attack the robot? It would be kind of unrealistic if a shell would deal damage to a 400 foot tall robot. Could you reflect the projectiles or something? That might make the battle interesting, if when journeying through the castle you come across one of Norveg's old machines, a reflecting barrier. It sill works but is in bad condition so you can only use it every 10-15 seconds or so. Then you can use it to reflect the giant robot's attacks, thus dealing damage to it. Then we can carry on with Riolu180's idea or Norveg coming out of the machine and having to fight him a bit. If you hit him enough, he can go back inside the machine and then you have to deactivate the giant robot.

I've never seen his design before, where can I find it? But if his cane is mechanical, then he can basically do anything with it, kind of like the penultimate boss of Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story. He could create portals with it, he could fly with it, the list goes on. . .

As for the time, that is the biggest problem with the level. We want to add so much in to make it epic but we want to keep it within a reasonable time limit. You are absolutely right that length does not equate to epicness, but if done properly, it can equate to epicness and difficulty, which is what we want for the final level of the main game. (not including World 9)

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Hmm. . . not sure what to say so I'll just stop talking. . .

Originally posted by Kojeco2

You know, that is a pretty good idea! But what would you do to attack the robot? It would be kind of unrealistic if a shell would deal damage to a 400 foot tall robot. Could you reflect the projectiles or something? That might make the battle interesting, if when journeying through the castle you come across one of Norveg's old machines, a reflecting barrier. It sill works but is in bad condition so you can only use it every 10-15 seconds or so. Then you can use it to reflect the giant robot's attacks, thus dealing damage to it. Then we can carry on with Riolu180's idea or Norveg coming out of the machine and having to fight him a bit. If you hit him enough, he can go back inside the machine and then you have to deactivate the giant robot.

You'd attack certain weak points. Perhaps Norveg is still working on the robot, so it's got key faults in certain places that, if attacked with enough force (such as, yes, hitting it with a shell), can take down the robot's defenses. And by that I mean overheat it to where he HAS to open up a path for you to get inside or the robot is ruined. Like, say, attack exhaust pipes in order to cause a buildup of exhaust, forcing Norveg to open a door to force all the exhaust out.

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I've never seen his design before, where can I find it? But if his cane is mechanical, then he can basically do anything with it, kind of like the penultimate boss of Mario & Luigi Bowser's Inside Story. He could create portals with it, he could fly with it, the list goes on. . .

Ask Smallhacker. Also, I was imagining the cane could only do a few things. Lasers, fire (because flamethrower), electricity... You get the idea. Basically, something that would make extremely logical sense with technology.

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As for the time, that is the biggest problem with the level. We want to add so much in to make it epic but we want to keep it within a reasonable time limit. You are absolutely right that length does not equate to epicness, but if done properly, it can equate to epicness and difficulty, which is what we want for the final level of the main game. (not including World 9)

No, I don't believe length equates to epicness at all. I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive- I'm saying they're not the same thing. Which, again, is two different things. Mutually exclusive means it's one OR the other- never both. That is far different than two things not being the same.

Basically, I'm saying this: We can have an epic and difficult level without it being extremely long- so why should it be very long solely for being the last level? Heck, we could have a super-epic level by starting out with a "fight" against the robot, then the actual level of trying to destroy it, which wouldn't be that long, and then the final boss. Wouldn't that still be epic? :D

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<Adam> I feel like smwc is a prostitute now, because we put up a porn ad for money
Originally posted by Riolu180
You'd attack certain weak points. Perhaps Norveg is still working on the robot, so it's got key faults in certain places that, if attacked with enough force (such as, yes, hitting it with a shell), can take down the robot's defenses. And by that I mean overheat it to where he HAS to open up a path for you to get inside or the robot is ruined. Like, say, attack exhaust pipes in order to cause a buildup of exhaust, forcing Norveg to open a door to force all the exhaust out.


That works!

Originally posted by Riolu180
Ask Smallhacker. Also, I was imagining the cane could only do a few things. Lasers, fire (because flamethrower), electricity... You get the idea. Basically, something that would make extremely logical sense with technology.


I didn't mean that it has to do everything in the battle, I was simply listing out possible abilities it could have and then choosing the best 2 or 3 moves he can have. And "something that would make extremely logical sense with technology", you mean like "MAGIC"? :)

Originally posted by Riolu180
No, I don't believe length equates to epicness at all. I'm not saying they're mutually exclusive- I'm saying they're not the same thing. Which, again, is two different things. Mutually exclusive means it's one OR the other- never both. That is far different than two things not being the same.

Basically, I'm saying this: We can have an epic and difficult level without it being extremely long- so why should it be very long solely for being the last level? Heck, we could have a super-epic level by starting out with a "fight" against the robot, then the actual level of trying to destroy it, which wouldn't be that long, and then the final boss. Wouldn't that still be epic? :D



First of all, I know what mutually exclusive means.

Second, length and epicness don't always go together, but they can work together. Look at the final level of Super Mario Galaxy, it's level is longer than most of the other levels in the game and it is still epic. It is not mutually exclusive, simply difficult to work with.

To me, 5-10 minutes isn't that long of a level, especially compared to the monotonous final boss of ASMWCP, not to mention the level before that, I believe it goes by the name of "Adventum Terminus".

Edit: Actually, let's let S.N.N. and some other people decide, we have been going on for a little bit now and we should let some more people share their opinions before we continue.

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Hmm. . . not sure what to say so I'll just stop talking. . .

Where is this factory going to be, anyway? Should there be some sense of continuity with the Bonus World? For instance, should we have Mario find the plans to Norveg's hidden factory fortress in the blueprint stage? Should it be in the asteroid belt (?) where Asteroid Antics takes place? How is Mario going to approach the place?

Personally, I don't want Mario to finish a bunch of abstract levels only to suddenly find himself in a factory.

Or are we talking about the final level of World 8, and World 9 really is just bonus levels? I feel like we should make a decision about that soon, now that we're all having this conversation.


On a side note, I don't really like the whole "Without my robot, I'm just going to stand here and shake my fist as you jump on me a single time to beat the game" idea. Now, I'm not saying we should pull a Wild Dog, but I feel like Norveg would always have some trick up his sleeve, even without his mechanical contraptions.

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I'm a bit surprised everyone seems to be having a issue with a 5-10 minute level. It's really not that long people. Matter of a fact, some of the levels already inserted into the rom are already that long. Treetop Tussle comes to mind. I did a play through on it and it took me about 6-7 minutes to complete just going through and collecting coins/SMWC coins, and that is without dieing.
Layout by LDA during C3.
Originally posted by AxemJinx
Where is this factory going to be, anyway? Should there be some sense of continuity with the Bonus World? For instance, should we have Mario find the plans to Norveg's hidden factory fortress in the blueprint stage? Should it be in the asteroid belt (?) where Asteroid Antics takes place? How is Mario going to approach the place?

Personally, I don't want Mario to finish a bunch of abstract levels only to suddenly find himself in a factory.

Or are we talking about the final level of World 8, and World 9 really is just bonus levels? I feel like we should make a decision about that soon, now that we're all having this conversation.


On a side note, I don't really like the whole "Without my robot, I'm just going to stand here and shake my fist as you jump on me a single time to beat the game" idea. Now, I'm not saying we should pull a Wild Dog, but I feel like Norveg would always have some trick up his sleeve, even without his mechanical contraptions.


This is for Norveg's citadel in World 8, which comes immediately after the eighth castle.

I believe someone suggested that Norveg's cane could be hiding some tricks. It could be mechanized for all we know.

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To address some previous ideas:

-In regards to having to fight the giant robot before you enter it: why not just have a small auto-scrolling (or even non-auto-scrolling) section with custom layer 2 smashers or something, redrawn to be a spiked arm? I don't know how we'd be able to make a good method of attacking a boss that is talked up to be totally colossal. Then again, if we put Sonikku's tank boss right before it, there would be no issue.

-I'm on the fence about having Norveg die in one jump after all of that. I think I'd almost rather see him have one final "devastation"-styled blow, where he ignites the entire screen or something. I don't know.

-Using the cane to attack is a good idea. Actually, what if he summoned one of those red laser grids that you often see in movies to cross the entire screen, and then you'd have to find the safe spot or something? This should be moderately feasible with a mixture of ExAnimation and HDMA.

-And yes, we're talking about world 8's final level. We'll cover world 9 later.

I'll let the discussion continue.
Originally posted by S.N.N.
-I'm on the fence about having Norveg die in one jump after all of that. I think I'd almost rather see him have one final "devastation"-styled blow, where he ignites the entire screen or something. I don't know.


Well, what I had in mind is that he does actually blow up in a massive explosion after defeating the second phase of the giant robot. Jumping on him and one-hit killing him would be part of a post-boss cutscene, just to satisfy the player. And referring back to AxemJinx, he won't be shaking his fist because he will be practically dead. Even when he looses his giant robot he fights you head to head with his cane, that is the last trick he has up his sleeve.

On the other hand, I guess once you defeat him he could do some sort of 'last stand' attack. Maybe he sets the castle itself to self destruct and you have to escape before it blows (that doesn't mean you have to backtrack all the way through the level, there will be a new area for you to run). I don't know, that probably wouldn't fit if we are already going to have the giant robot self destruct. I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there.

And what about the original gimmick for the long epic part? What will be there to fill it in?

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Hmm. . . not sure what to say so I'll just stop talking. . .

Originally posted by S.N.N.
I think I'd almost rather see him have one final "devastation"-styled blow, where he ignites the entire screen or something. I don't know.

-Using the cane to attack is a good idea.

How about combining these points? When he's down to his final hit, you could have him fire a giant laser (think Master Spark) from the point of his cane, and you'd have to get out of the way and wait for him to finish before you could land that final jump.

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Well, I suppose that going with both the "final blow" and then one-hit kill could work. We'll just have to think of the perfect final attack, or something.

As for that "long, epic" part .. well, I don't really agree with Riolu that having a really long level can lead to tedium. If we vary it up enough, it could end up being extremely fun. Granted, we're not talking 25-30 minutes - 5-10 is only a bit longer than a regular level, and it would still have the same effect as one ultimately.

I don't know. I'll gather a few more ideas from this thread and see if I can compile them into something workable.
Regarding the 5-10 minutes debate: I'm in agreement that we don't need to make some ridiculously long level, but I also think that 5-10 minutes isn't all that long. Heck, I think I've easily clocked over 10 minutes a few times on MrDeePay's level, but it's was still enjoyable the whole way through. But yea, the point is that we certainly don't want the level to overextend its welcome; we don't want it to be over in the blink of an eye either.

Also, I'm really against the idea of reprising world themes, although by the looks of it, that boat may have sunk already, so no problem there. The idea just doesn't make any sense. While reprising certain gimmicks from previous worlds (as long as they're done with a fresh sense of style and delivery) isn't necessarily a bad idea, replaying world themes - I mean, never mind that it doesn't fit the concept of Norveg's last bastion of chaos, it was already done in SMWCP, so why do it again?

As far as the level, I like the idea of the "final boss" itself being the level - makes me think of the demise of Unicron in the original Transformers movie. This would allow for split paths if we choose to go that route as well as some really intriguing level concepts - again, thinking of Unicron here. I don't know if I like the idea of battling the "boss" itself before entering said "boss," as I don't exactly see how it could work. I envision more of the corridor/"boss"/final encounter sort of scenario. The corridor would be the lead in level, perhaps utilizing the tank boss as SNN has suggested, followed by the bulk of the level winding over and around or through the "boss" itself and finally reaching the control center (the brain?) where a pretty nasty battle could ensue.

Regarding Norveg, I still think he should be a completely hands-off sort of antagonist. Although hiding a secret finishing attack after everything else has failed? Why not? Maybe that's what that cane's been hiding this whole time. I imagine a great blast attack that would "bring the house down" if you will. After which Norveg would flee. Honestly, with all of his machines defeated, I could see Norveg being the cowardly type when all is said and done. He's too scrawny and brittle to dare a dance with Mario himself. I like the idea of a single-hit death finds victory in the end, and utilizing Alcaro's chase idea would seem appropriate.

Anyways, just a heaping of thoughts and opinions from my end.
Perhaps for the last segment of the battle, it could be like in Revenge of Meta Knight where the factory begins to collapse and Norveg attempts one more time to kill Mario while he escapes. Norveg could sport a jet pack and throw bombs or shoot lasers.

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I no longer have interest in SMW Hacking as I did when I first started several years ago.
Regarding level length, I don't really think the final level needs to be that much longer than normal levels. If a normal level can leave an impression in someone's mind, we don't really need to extend supposedly epic levels much further, do we? Obviously it will be a bit longer for the sake of difficulty or something, but it doesn't have to take a significant portion out of someone's day. I think standard levels usually should be limited to about 500 SMW "seconds", i.e. five minutes to explore the level and collect everything (anything more than that is pushing it really), but since we don't have the timer anymore, I'll just say 8 minutes. We have to take into account that people will be dying, and that the 8-minute length is on a perfect run.

Regarding level themes, rather than revisiting all the worlds of the game, I'd say it'd be more interesting to revisit a number of gimmicks from throughout the game and then mix them. While having a sense of familiarity with these gimmicks, they're used in vastly different ways requiring you to think laterally and providing a whole new challenge. Think something like Portal, or the final level of Jacob's HACK if you want a SMW hacking-related example. Except better.
Of course there'll also be just some relatively normal platforming sections as well; don't really want to overload ourselves with gimmicks.

Regarding the final boss, I'm liking a lot of what's been suggested so far, i.e. fights with machines, secret final blow, chase scene, defeated by one jump on the head. It seems to fit his general personality, and a chase scene would make good use of Norveg's jet pack. (Oh yeah, he had one of those.)

That's all I can think of to say.

ninjaedit (yes I was ninja'd I was typing this post for like half an hour): Not a bad idea, but he already has a jet pack. The final blow thing could be what leads to the collapse of the factory, and hence the chase scene.

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May we meet again outside the battlefield.
Then I'm going to "finalize" those thoughts and we'll work off of this:

-The first linear section can be a lead-up to the boss. I suppose it could be a "docking station", if you will. That'll culminate with Sonikku's tank boss in a "tube" that actually leads INTO the machine.
-The non-linear part can be different section of the machine. If you deactivate enough of them, you can move on.
-There will be one final linear part before Norveg.

Sounds like a plan we can set in stone, at least. We still don't have any real ideas for attacks the boss can have, so any kind of suggestions would be cool there. Think fancy, if you want - the sky's pretty much the limit at this point.
Just throwing this out there, I think the boss should fire loosely following homing missiles that you can direct into the robot to hurt it. Not only is it more original, but it'll add some difficulty to the boss.
@Lynnes: I said that in my message at the top of Page 3. As for attacks, I think we should go with a mix of Tor's attacks (from Iji) and RPG-esque attacks. By this I mean the attacks are projectile based and laser based, but at the same time appear in patterns that require some thinking to dodge properly.

For example, a bomb that upon impact with the ground will cause smaller bombs to fly up into the air and fall back down in patterns.

We should have an attacking pattern to keep the boss organized, for example 3 different attacks, then a mega attack, then a homing missile. And as you progress through the boss and deal more damage to it, the patterns will change to maybe 5 different attacks, two mega attacks, and a homing missile along with a regular attack.

NOTE: Remember that I don't mean he will use the same 3 attacks every time, he could have 7-8 different attacks that he would randomly use each phase. This way the boss won't be repetitive.

Mega attacks should be very special, not just firing a couple bullets in a row, maybe like using one of the pieces of the giant robot as a melee attack where he smashes it into the ground, causing an earthquake that not only stuns Mario but causes pieces of the castle to fall. Or even something like doing a ground-pound like attack that causes waves of electricity to fly of in both directions, these could be in patterns such as jump, jump, duck, jump, high jump, duck or some other randomly generated pattern. I don't know how difficult this would be to program though.

What happens at the end of the second phase of the Sonniku's Tank Boss? Does it just give up and explode or something?

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Hmm. . . not sure what to say so I'll just stop talking. . .

I just watched that Tor battle, and it seems like a good direction to take, but I agree that adding some melee attacks involving parts of the robot itself would be neat. I also think we could have a better sense of progression- that fight seemed to drag on just a bit.

I wonder if we can make cursors appear to hint where the attacks will be headed?

Oh, I would love to see a tide phase where you use dolphins to help avoid the projectiles. Perhpas you can stand on some of the missiles he throws as well- using the very attacks themselves to dodge other ones could be nice.

Just tossing ideas around like always :b

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Originally posted by S.N.N.
-The non-linear part can be different section of the machine. If you deactivate enough of them, you can move on.


Oh thank god. This is really a feature that The Void should have had.

Also, I'd like to throw out a suggestion for the Norveg battle: If we absolutely have to make it so that you need some random, arbitrary koopa shell to hurt him, can we at least make it so that it just stuns him, allowing you to actually jump on him to get an hit?

Also, here's an idea for the overall structure of the fight: Norveg appears in a giant robot, with Norveg himself visible in a thin glass cockpit at the top. Occasionally, one of his attacks would involve a bob-omb (or the aforementioned homing missiles), which Mario would have to use in order to break the glass he's hiding behind and knock him out of there, at which point the robot would fall apart and Norveg would begin actually fighting you (with an entirely new move set). After he's taken enough hits he would summon a new robot, like the old one, jump in, seal the cockpit, and the battle would continue. Bonus points for the robot being different each time, requiring a different method for getting Norveg out of there.
I should get a new layout.

Probably won't, though.
Ooh, kind of like Sevenforce but with hand-to-hand combat as well. I like that idea, actually.

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I like that idea too. Now this boss is starting to sound like a real hit.

When battling the gigantic robot, if we use Kipernal's idea of breaking the glass to cockpit (which I think we REALLY should) does he jump out and start attacking Mario himself, then do you have to hit him enough times to knock him out, where you can go inside the cockpit and cause the giant robot to self destruct?

I don't know if dolphins would fit in a factory themed battle though, maybe they could be reskinned to look like robotic springs? If anything, maybe Norveg could ground pound hard enough to cause pieces of the floor to fly up in the air, imitating what dolphins do, and then the bottom of the floor would fill up with lava or toxic waste.

I agree that the Tor battle drags on quite a bit. And it would be cool if the boss was different every hit point. That would mean it should probably have only three or four hit-points, to avoid having to sprite a lot.

First phase: Ground based with a shape similar to a tank?
Second phase: Ground based but this time with mechanical legs.
Third phase: Ground based with a jetpack or something.
Fourth phase: Completely air-based, requires the "dolphin floor" trick to defeat.

Cursors are a great idea, that is what is sometimes used in the Tor fight, where an arrow appears saying "JUMP" or something along those lines to indicate you must jump as high as you can to avoid the attack.

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Hmm. . . not sure what to say so I'll just stop talking. . .

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Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 9 - World 9 Final Boss: Norveg - p4plus2 [ASM] Alessio [GFX]

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