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136: EREHPS EHT RAEF - Rameau's Nephew
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 10 - 136: EREHPS EHT RAEF - Rameau's Nephew
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Found a bug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dmh4lW4cpCw

Actually that looks like a sprite memory issue. There are actually suppose to be 2 boo rings there.
Layout by LDA during C3.

The grass has a weird color.

I don't really remember why I took this.

Shouldn't those marios' palette be exactly like Mario's? Also, why is there a cutoff cherry piece?

Mario's fireball have wrong colors.

Originally posted by S.N.N
[image]
I don't know if I agree with what Magiluigi said about having an overly trippy background here


Ummm... when I said "soul" area I meant the cave like area... but regarding the tower part, those stars don't really look like... stars (they aren't even shiny/sparkly!).

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Originally posted by Lightvayne
Actually that looks like a sprite memory issue. There are actually suppose to be 2 boo rings there.

Yes. They were. But when i went back to see them this is how it works.
Also the one blue ball doesn't shows up at first.
So many comments, so little time...

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I just noticed you can get up and over here, to a small set of note blocks. If you fling to the right, there is actually a door on a bunch of turn blocks. Either way, is the player supposed to be able to get here, or is this accidental?


Just a side effect of my substitute midpoint setup, really. The final level will end at that wall.

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I don't know if I agree with what Magiluigi said about having an overly trippy background here (as cool as it may be) - but rather, is there a chance you could add some more color, or something at all to make this area feel like it fits in more with the rest of the level? Every area before and after this has a really weird and crazy atmosphere, but this one feels so .. normal, in a way. I think anything could spice it up, really, be it some sort of flashy effect, a more abstract (though not nauseating) effect on the background, etc. It's entirely up to you, but I just can't help but feel something is off.


I sort of tried to be a little more low-key there, but I can see how it could use a little something in comparison to the rest (though I'm interested to learn you come from a place where wormy writhing plants are commonplace things). There is, admittedly something of a practical limit of how much I really can do there at this poitn, as my animation file (shared to begin with) is %100 full, and I don't really have any free palettes, but I'll see if I can think of something. I actually thought it would be neat if the larger moon had a face like one of those Pac-Man things, but I'd really rather avoid asking my graphics fellow to make one of those at this point, as he's extremely busy of late, and sort of did me rather a bit of a favor simply making the existing original graphics. In any case, I probably wouldn't really have room for it on my graphics file, anyway (or maybe I would if I ended up sharing a text file with Vic Rattlehead as you proped earlier..?) But I'll see what else can be done.

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but regarding the tower part, those stars don't really look like... stars (they aren't even shiny/sparkly!).


That particular effect was actually intentional, as I sort of wanted them to look like "false" stars, or cold grey spheres floating in the void (spheres are, after all, something of a running them here), but I can see how that idea might not come through as clearly as I had hoped it might. Again, I'll see what I can do to punch up this background a touch.

Originally posted by Magiluigi
The grass has a weird color.


What exactly strikes you as odd about it, out of curiousity? Too light, too dark, too similar to the ground color? Again, that last effect was intentional, but if the effect doesn't quite work as intended, I'm interested to know.

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Shouldn't those marios' palette be exactly like Mario's?[..]
Mario's fireball have wrong colors.


Both of those are side effects of what the sprites "really" are, and the corresponding palettes assigned to them. The Marios are red Koopa Troopas, and thus bound to palette C, which does not change as palette 8 does. I'm OK with them always being "normal" Marios though, to be honest, since they're more representations of Mario than anythign. The fireball issue similarly stems from the Deedle-Ball really being a Sparky, which unfortunately uses Palette A, whose first half especially is not a great thing to change. I'll see, however, if I can rearrange the colors in such a way that I can preserve the fireball colors, or at the absolute least to give them a more pleasing selection of blues, similar to those of the blue Pac-Man things. The cherry, incidentally, is just a misplaced tile.

Once again, thanks for the input, folks, and I'll see what I can do to resolve these issues.
Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
What exactly strikes you as odd about it, out of curiousity? Too light, too dark, too similar to the ground color? Again, that last effect was intentional, but if the effect doesn't quite work as intended, I'm interested to know.

You didn't understand what I said, I'm not talking about the grass Mario is standing on. Just follow the direction his eyes are pointing and you'll understand what I mean.

Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
Both of those are side effects of what the sprites "really" are, and the corresponding palettes assigned to them. The Marios are red Koopa Troopas, and thus bound to palette C, which does not change as palette 8 does.

You misunderstood me again. I knew that those marios were Red Koopa Troopas the moment I saw that they didn't fall from those cookies. What I meant, is that their palette is this:

When it should be this:

Got it?

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Had some difficultly (i.e. impossibility) in working of this of late due to my computer contracting some unexpected inertness (wait, how was I still keeping in touch during this time, then? Sorcery!) and my correspondingly having to spend five days or so running about frantically trying to get it fixed in a country whose language I don't speak in any capacity and whose people by and large speak little to none of any of my own languages, but things seem to be working properly again now, so so much for that. Minor palette issues and the like have already been resolved, so now it's just a matter of seeing what I can do with the background in section the third (I have some ideas, but they will be admittedly tedious to implement). Yeppo.

In others news,



They seem to have gotten it backwards.
The music in the deedle ball room is just the regular SMW boss music.

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I'm sorry, but I'm not good at SMW hacking, so I gave up on it. That means I'm leaving SMWCentral. Bye!
Ah...yes, I, ah, picked up on that one. The reason for this is that curiously enough, not a single one of the hack's original tracks begins with a dramatic chord or a swelling crescendo, which I dare say is imperative for the startling reveal. If Paradox's final boss theme ultimately ends up being ported and used, I have to say that would be nigh-on perfect (and I snicker to myself like a loon when I imagine that tune being used to accompany a barrage of nose puns), but otherwise, there isn't really much alternative. I guess it sort of works for an anti-climactic effect, if nothing else.
Happy birthday! You win an IPS.

This version makes the background of level 83 a bit more interesting, plus fixes a few other minor goofs. The solid hurt blocks (should be fixed relatively soon), the sprite memory problems in 82 (should be fixed somewhat later) and the lack of a background in the first section (should be fixed at some point or other) still remain, though.

Now, the bad news: it seems my (virtually brand new) computer problems have returned with a vengeance. In a less instantaneously severe manner, to be certain, but more irreperably: namely, my AC adaptor has melted (yes, literally melted). I must confess that I never really trusted that shoddy-looking thing to begin with, and worried that it seemed to run surprisingly hot for its size, but I had never expected it to self-destruct, and indeed at so young an age, with so much to live for. And I have been assured during my previous escapade that I will be quite incapable of getting a replacement part before I return from my trip (Dec. 6)

The result: my laptop's functionality is now limited to its four remaining hours of battery power. Now, this is no cause for alarm; I can still access the internet by other means (albeit less frequently), and I've saved all the relevant files (including a more space-efficient version of my World 3 level) to a USB drive for safe keeping. However, my ability to actually edit (and certainly to test, though I've been severely impeded on that front for a while now due to a lack of a controller, hence A) my attempting to resolve all major gameplay issues before my departure and B) my suddenly no longer testing anyone else's levels recently) are limited to what I can still get out of this thing, at least until my reurn. So if you notice any bugs in this version...well, try to let me know about them while I still have the ability to do something about them, I suppose!
You can fix the issues when you get back- I doubt that would be a problem.

Anyway, I finally gave this level a try, and I while I think the atmosphere and all the little touches are excellent, I really have to question some of the sprite setups. Many of them are either end-of-jump enemy encounters (EEEs) or rather luck-based. The level also feels too long: every time I die, it seems unfair to have to repeat as much as I do. I kind of wish this level had three midway points in its current form instead of two.

136
4, bottom: The first time I saw this enemy, I had no idea what it would do, and then it promptly jumped on top of me. Does the first one you encounter have to have the high ground in a relatively narrow space?

4/5, top: I suppose you could just wait for a high bounce from the football, but I find this setup fairly irritating all the same. There's pretty much no room to maneuver and there's always the chance that the football won't bounce in the way you expect it to. Taking the high path is pretty much out of the question here as well.

5, middle: EEE if the player jumps too early to clear the blue flame before the drop, though I suppose many would take their time here?

6: Pretty much a blind drop, no? Players aren't going to know if there are blue flames down there, and the spot where the coins are isn't necessarily the safest...

7: Why is the bottom half of the arrow sign solid? I can accept strange happenings in this level, but this sticks out to me.

9: When you hit the switch, the 'TNK' directly below you is missing a 'K.'

Overall: Why are players limited to mushrooms in the first section? There are plenty of things to get used to, and half of the enemies don't even die, so if anything, this would be the section to give players a bit more leeway. I guess that's just me, though.



82
0-1: Players won't know that blue and green orbs act differently when they head off to the left first and suddenly encounter four orbs. I wonder if you should have the blue ones bounce off the right wall immediately, at least.

3/4: Something about this setup just seems disproportionately harder with a powerup in tow.

4, right: Another instance of the first encounter being in a potentially dangerous spot. If you guessed that these enemies will act like swoopers, congratulations! Otherwise...

6: Probably just my personal bias, but balancing on short steep slopes while waiting for a boo circle? Blegh.

7, 9: These spots felt like EEEs to me- I never seemed to have much time to dodge as I landed on the platforms.

F: If you want to force a fire flower, perhaps you could just use the sprite version? What if players hit both blocks back to back?

10: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you can't drop to these platforms unless you're already holding the jump button, and once the ghosts appear, jumping at all is a serious risk.

11-1E: This may have just been my experience, but this entire section felt pretty luck-based. Sometimes I almost never got hit, sometimes I couldn't avoid getting hit repeatedly. Traveling below swooping ghosts is one thing, but traveling in the midst of them? You also have a couple of stationary flames, which definitely looks confusing among all the moving ones.

16: This screen gets a special mention because all of the exiting/entering water slows Mario down immensely, making him a prime target here. Sure, you have powerups, but this feels like an area where you're almost guaranteed to get hit unless you outright ignore the question blocks below.



83
10: Just my opinion here, but I think these enemies spit blue flame way too infrequently. I find myself waiting in anticipation just so I don't make a hasty jump and get hit, which gets pretty irritating after a while.

Other: While I've always felt the "advanced goomba" is an exceedingly odd and counter-intuitive sprite, the way you put them in cramped corridors just exacerbates the feeling. This is probably just me, but whenever I come across one of these enemies, and especially in this level, I keep on thinking, "This enemy shouldn't even exist. Something about it doesn't feel right."

Other: I'll have to pay more attention to this the next time I test, but I suspect some of the branching path pairs vary too widely in difficulty, especially the ones at the end of this sublevel.

B/C, left: Don't you think you're asking players to repeat a little too much here? Why not add a platform in midair so players can immediately return to the note blocks?

B-A: Footballs on single note blocks that always seem to have the high ground? To me, this is the epitome of luck-based platforming. Take it from someone who's really overused footballs in the past. On top of that, you have to go through all of it- and the next few screens besides- with a single powerup if you start from the midway point.

8: Sometimes I would bounce off of an eerie here only to hit a blue flame that sneaked its way across from the opposite end of the screen where I couldn't see it.

7/6, right: Kind of a tricky jump, especially considering you're at the edge of the screen where the eeries spawn. I guess you don't have to use the football to ascend, though.

3-2: As I implied before, the note block path is much, much easier.

1: The fact that the roof is solid from below actually cost me a life once.

Other: Almost forgot- it's kind of odd that question blocks crumble in the first section but act normally afterward.



Also, the fact that the Luigi sprite is just a red elite reskin, on top of the "boss" after that, makes it feel like a double letdown. I almost feel like the Luigi sprite should be a boss all its own (though that would encourage the use of four midway points), so as to emphasize the irony of the second fight while still giving players something to chew on.

The second boss's "upgrade" gives me a Tyrian vibe, actually- interesting. I don't think you even need that fight, though I suppose removing it would also mean removing the "TNK" suspense buildup. Still...now that I've actually seen it, that whole section seems pretty nonsequiturish to me. I was more interested in the dreamlike Luigi character, personally. I'd even go so far to say this might make a good final level/ final boss (essentially nullifying the question of whether we need a separate boss level) if we make something more complex out of the Luigi character and cut out everything after that.


Anyway, I'm spent for now. Don't let all my whining discourage you- it's a great level, but given its length and the abundance of idiosyncratic reskins, I want to make sure all frustration is extracted and trashed by the time it's finished.

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Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART
'Fear the Sphere' name thought up by Rameau's Nephew was my favorite level name for this level. I thought another name for this level. It may be TNK Terror.

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I'm sorry, but I'm not good at SMW hacking, so I gave up on it. That means I'm leaving SMWCentral. Bye!

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

Originally posted by Woody
I thought another name for this level. It may be TNK Terror.


That is a horrible name, to be frank.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
The first time I saw this enemy, I had no idea what it would do, and then it promptly jumped on top of me. Does the first one you encounter have to have the high ground in a relatively narrow space?


Normally, I'm a very strong proponent of non-instantaneously harmful sprite introductions, but I could not resist violating this rule here, as this particular one is intended to startle the player (hence the lack of any enemies at all before it). I actually tried moving the first one out in the open, but the effect was...just not the same. And while the player will probably get hit by it the first time, I imagine they'll be laughing when it happens, and in any case, there's a mushroom right before, anyway, so it won't be instantly fatal.

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7: Why is the bottom half of the arrow sign solid? I can accept strange happenings in this level, but this sticks out to me.


Simple Map 16 goof there when I was fixing the palette issues mentioned in an earlier post.

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Overall: Why are players limited to mushrooms in the first section? There are plenty of things to get used to, and half of the enemies don't even die, so if anything, this would be the section to give players a bit more leeway. I guess that's just me, though.


Atmospheric reasons, mostly--all the blocks are fake, so the powerups are all simply lying around. It also gives it a touch of a more desperate feel--as I mentioned, I wanted the intro to be short and intense, with the (pre-midpoint) second section being longer, but a little more relaxed, as fits the subdued, flowing æsthetic. I could throw in another hidden powerup if you like, but the section's pretty short to begin with, so I wonder if that might not be shifting things a touch too[ far...

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4, right: Another instance of the first encounter being in a potentially dangerous spot. If you guessed that these enemies will act like swoopers, congratulations! Otherwise...


I didn't really think that was all too dangerous a spot, but I'll see what I can do about making the first one more demonstrative in function.

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6: Probably just my personal bias, but balancing on short steep slopes while waiting for a boo circle? Blegh.


I tried to arrange that so the player, if moving at a steady pace, is less likely to have to wait for very long, but obviously that doesn't occur in any instance. Of course, personally, I'd take having to precariously balance over just standing around (which unfortunately seems to be a more common way of using said circles) any day.

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7, 9: These spots felt like EEEs to me- I never seemed to have much time to dodge as I landed on the platforms.


It tends to be a good deal easier if you spin jump, which tends to be my own personal reaction around large numbers of Eeries. It might not be a bad idea to widen the stationary platform on screen 09 a tile, though...

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F: If you want to force a fire flower, perhaps you could just use the sprite version? What if players hit both blocks back to back?


I considered that, but the sprite memory issues in that section made it gafloigle. Separating the blocks a tile was my attempt to compensate for overzealous block-hitting, but I can see how particularly impetuous players might be thwarted even then. In any case, the Extended No Sprite Tile Limits patch should probably allow the sprite version to appear properly.

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11-1E: This may have just been my experience, but this entire section felt pretty luck-based. Sometimes I almost never got hit, sometimes I couldn't avoid getting hit repeatedly. Traveling below swooping ghosts is one thing, but traveling in the midst of them? You also have a couple of stationary flames, which definitely looks confusing among all the moving ones.


Luck definitely plays a role here, and the entire section is definitely decidedly unorthodox, but I wanted to do a sort of conceptually unreasonable (but in practice not really that bad at all) section in this level (think of various parts of Thirdspace in TSRPR, though perhaps a bit less ridiculous than that), ending the bonus world as it is. I also really, really wanted to try to use the rarely seen boo ceiling in a decidedly different manner, including making use of the "floor" part and forcing the player to travel directly through the swarm. The whole thing's definitely supposed to seem like an all-out assault on the player, though in practice it's really not as demanding as it seems at first, especially once you get the rhythm down. As for the stationary flames, I've been considering making them a slightly different color in order to avoid visual confusion.

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10: Just my opinion here, but I think these enemies spit blue flame way too infrequently. I find myself waiting in anticipation just so I don't make a hasty jump and get hit, which gets pretty irritating after a while.


I agree; the Grey Snifit sprite is definitely in need of some tweaking, both in this respect and in its inability to turn around when Mario is behind it (more on that later). I may make a post in the resource request thread to see if any of our coders might be willing to solve these issues (well, I could probably change the firing interval myself, but it's probably a good thing to make "official").

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B/C, left: Don't you think you're asking players to repeat a little too much here? Why not add a platform in midair so players can immediately return to the note blocks?


I'm actually surprised you're the first one to mention this; I expected this section to be a good deal more controversial than it seems to have been. I may well do exactly what you propose here.

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B-A: Footballs on single note blocks that always seem to have the high ground? To me, this is the epitome of luck-based platforming. Take it from someone who's really overused footballs in the past. On top of that, you have to go through all of it- and the next few screens besides- with a single powerup if you start from the midway point.


I actually wanted to use the flame-spitting variant here, but their inability to turn around made this impractical. Again, another reason to make that request.

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3-2: As I implied before, the note block path is much, much easier.


I actually made the other side harder because it was originally so much easier than the noteblock path. I had indeed suspected that I had shifted too far in the other direction, and was considering tossing another element into the noteblock path to shake things up a bit, but I was unsure how much trouble other people would have with the noteblocks compared to me, the designer, who necessarily has a skewed view of things. But it's good to have it confirmed that this would be worth doing.

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Other: Almost forgot- it's kind of odd that question blocks crumble in the first section but act normally afterward.


Every section has its own specific little quirks; the crumbling blocks are one of the gimmicks of the first section, which is generally twisted and decayed--the other sections aren't, though, and thus don't have this feature (though they have their own quirks). The one thrown in at the top of the tower serves as a bit of a joke; after traveling through the rest of the level with all normal blocks (and thus having semi-forgotten about their presence in the first section) the player runs into one again at the end, making it once more a bit of a surprise.

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Also, the fact that the Luigi sprite is just a red elite reskin, on top of the "boss" after that, makes it feel like a double letdown. I almost feel like the Luigi sprite should be a boss all its own (though that would encourage the use of four midway points), so as to emphasize the irony of the second fight while still giving players something to chew on.


I'd love that idea, provided we have enough free sprite slots in the end. Of course, it basically had to be a reskin in this version, since I, ah, cannot code sprites at all.

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The second boss's "upgrade" gives me a Tyrian vibe, actually- interesting. I don't think you even need that fight, though I suppose removing it would also mean removing the "TNK" suspense buildup.


Oh, lordy, yes, it's necessary. The post-Luigi section is actually my favorite part of the level; it's a sort of parade of steadily-increasing bizarreness, which seems a good way to end the final normal level of the dream world. As you may have noticed from my other level, I'm very, very keen on combining darkly atmospheric and patently absurd elements, and for the end of the bonus world, this really seemed the only logical way to go. It also ties into the idea that our most terrifying nightmares are often really quite ridiculous when viewed objectively, but that doesn't stop them from having their fear-inducing effect when our subconscious runs away with us.

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Still...now that I've actually seen it, that whole section seems pretty nonsequiturish to me. I was more interested in the dreamlike Luigi character, personally. I'd even go so far to say this might make a good final level/ final boss (essentially nullifying the question of whether we need a separate boss level) if we make something more complex out of the Luigi character and cut out everything after that.


Pionpi Luigi is great fun, but honestly, he has more than a touch of the sort of cliché, "The boss is Mario's worst nightmare, which is himself!/fear of his brother's resentment!/yackity-yackity-yoo!" business I'd really, really prefer to avoid ending the dream world with. Also, he's pretty obviously a construct created to screw with Mario--as witnessed by the fact that he is a bit cliché--which is why I thought it imperative to bring in Mr. Dee-Bay (not to be confused with Frank above me) as the man behind the curtain. That said...

Someone suggested making the final phase of the Norveg battle (one all robots and the like are eliminated) such that the boss doesn't actively attack, and goes down in a single hit. Well, one idea I had for the bonus boss which I developed earlier concurrent with my earlier, controversial Ascended Deedle-Ball idea was to do an impressive and fun-to-battle but semi-cliché boss (originally conceived of as a Kirby's Superstar Computer Virus-type foe, as was suggested far earlier, but Pionpi Luigi would probably work even better, since he's rather more interesting and fits better into the world already), yet follow things up with a "Wait, this thing's clearly not acting by itself--who's really behind all this?", whereupon the Deedle-Ball would be revealed as the self-proclaimed evil mastermind, followed by the joke battle seen here as the final phase. This would allow us to do something like the idea described above, only instead of diminishing our primary antagonist, we use a clearly comedic, self-important character who woefully overestimates his own abilities in this role, which strikes me as considerably more appropriate. So if someone wanted to do a properly epic Pionpi Luigi boss, perhaps followed by a shout of "I'm sorry, Master! I've faaaailed yooooou!" or something and a shocking, Deedly conclusion, I'd be all for that--though I suspect that the same folks who didn't like the other Deedle-based denouement I suggested probably wouldn't like that idea much better. So in that case, I think it'd be best if we left him as a sort of mini-boss, though if someone wanted to code a proper sprite for him (perhaps with some will-o'-the-wisp-based attacks), that'd be pretty groovy, too.


And as for level names, I think "Fear the Sphere" (or "FEAR THE SPHERE") is the obvious way to go.
"FEAR THE SPHERE"? No. "REAF EHT EREHPS" or "EREHPS EHT REAF"? Yes.

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Oh I say I say I say! Well done, sir, well done.
Sir, even though I am reluctant to do so, I must ask, was this claim of yours sarcasm, or indeed a praise?

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'Twas indeed genuine praise. If our esteemed leadership has no objection to our more liberal interpretation of naming conventions in the final standard level, I dare say "EREHPS EHT REAF" would make a fine title indeed.
Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
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F: If you want to force a fire flower, perhaps you could just use the sprite version? What if players hit both blocks back to back?


I considered that, but the sprite memory issues in that section made it gafloigle. Separating the blocks a tile was my attempt to compensate for overzealous block-hitting, but I can see how particularly impetuous players might be thwarted even then. In any case, the Extended No Sprite Tile Limits patch should probably allow the sprite version to appear properly.

I haven't played this level, so please excuse me if I'm saying something dumb, but maybe placing one of those invisible pop-up mushrooms (sprite C7) half a screen earlier could work? It draws nothing on the screen until it pops out, and I think it's pretty underused.
I'm not sure why you want to force the player to get a flower anyways (I would find it pretty weird if I suddenly got two powerups at once), but I guess there's a reason behind it somewhere. Maybe you could make an enemy-less area with some bottomless pits between the two powerups, if you do need to enforce a flower?

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<blm> zsnes users are the flatearthers of emulation
The thing is, the lack of an item box makes grabbing two mushrooms in a row pointless. I was saying that instead of having two question blocks back to back, there could just be a fire flower instead, avoiding the possibility of players striking both blocks (as small Mario) before grabbing the first mushroom. But yes, another way would just be to separate the question blocks more.

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