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132: Nexus Norvegicus - Lightvayne/???
Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 9 - 132: Nexus Norvegicus - Lightvayne/???
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^ Thanks for catching a few things I meant to post but somehow didn't (solid block ambiguity + that one spot where you have no idea whether or not the vertical lasers are going to hit you).

Originally posted by MrDeePay
With how you set the level up so far, just how will the checkpoints and the potential four side rooms work out after the tank sub-boss?

We may have to rethink how we're going to handle the last section of the level. We could pull a SMWCP and utilize one midpoint + SRAM (though we'd have to make sure that it won't randomly break this time). Alternately, we could just have one final linear section and not even bother with the four doors idea that was discussed. We can sort that out after this section is fully completed.

Originally posted by Rameau's Nephew
- Jeez, that tank boss is a lot more brutal than I thought.

The only problem I have with it is that the red tires spawn so randomly. You could go for 60-90 seconds and get nothing, or have all three in the first 10 seconds. I'll talk to Sonikku about making it a little less random .. shouldn't be too difficult. No sense in having a potentially great mini-boss fall flat due to tedium.
As for a name, how about "Laserlock Lab" or something like that?

Another thing I noticed as I was going through this version is that the solidity of the tileset is a bit confusing at first, no? I mean, the crates are climbable but the tables and file cabinets are part of the background. I'm of course used to it by now, but will it be intuitive for new players, or will they have to cautiously test everything out as they continue?

Also, the electricity kills Mario even during invincibility frames, something I'm a little "eh" on, personally.

To be honest, this level's long enough as-is (maybe the second section could be fleshed out a bit), especially with a boss at the end. Even assuming we find all the checkpoints we need, I think we should be careful to avoid making this disproportionately longer than it needs to be.

5: Granted, I didn't even realize there were laser-burnt spots on the ground in the first place, but don't you think putting a table above this one might distract players from noticing it?

6/7: Since the flasks don't actually hurt you, and the first flask is nullified by the laser to the left, this kooPHD is mostly harmless.

8, middle: Though I personally didn't have any problems, it's possible players won't see this pendulum until they're already bouncing up.

B: To me, it seems odd to use a question block as a foothold because they're things you strike from below, and it isn't worth getting a coin to do that, not with lasers on either side and the tricky drop required to position yourself underneath in the first place.

C, ladder: You're basically screwed if the kooPHD throws a yellow flask here- the center fireball will descend directly down the ladder.

10: I'm not sure you're given enough room to gather your bearings at the end of this setup, at least the first time you encounter it. I think most players will assume they need to run at full speed, in which case will they be able to stop in time on a single tiles' worth of space?

11, top: The blue laser wasn't visible for me until I had already bounced up from the note block below- no time to dodge.


This room felt a little too slow-paced sometimes, especially in the beginning and on the A/B border. I also wonder whether the lasers scroll too far, since you're often forced to the very edge of the screen.

D-C: The track the lasers are running on needs to be visible when you hit the switch, so you know what's actually going on. In addition, why not have lower counterparts like you do at the top of this room?

C/B: I guess I'm missing something, but how are you supposed to hit these blocks if you don't have a cape?

B-A: I don't see why I should have to wait for a platform to appear in order to do what is immediately obvious (to me), and the scrolling tunnel afterward feels like claustrophobic filler. I should be dodging laser matrices or something else more related to the theme of the stage. Waiting for platforms to cycle is more of a generic "vertical level with sideways scrolling" thing, for me.

9: The problem I have with this setup is that, functionally, it's pretty much identical to the setup in the beginning of this room. The only difference is that the platforms are now one tile wide. I'm also not sure why the top platform of all things is the one made up of note blocks, making landing on top of the lasers kind of annoying (what with the low ceiling and all).

As for the boss...The first thing I tried doing was jumping on it, but I miscalculated my jump and was promptly insta-killed by the left edge of the screen. That kind of raised a red flag for me- shouldn't I just be pushed back? Shouldn't the boss be hurting me and not the camera?

Overall, not bad, but at the least I think the vertical section should be fleshed out more and redesigned a bit to eliminate parts where you might have to wait for things to cycle back and forth.

Edit: I'll be frank- I don't really like this boss.

-Left edge of screen kills you
-Moving right is disproportionately slow, moving left disproportionately fast (lack of maneuverability = not fun for me)
-Predisposition toward charge attack, red tires few and far between
-No reason to be anywhere other than directly in front of the boss (and the left edge is also ideal for phase 2)
-Spinjump with flower -> fireball hilarity
-That one phase change notwithstanding, there's little sense of progression or change in tactics used
-The second phase ends abruptly without explanation- it would make more sense if it crashed into a wall or something...

-The way you hurt it in the first phase doesn't even make sense. The red tires seem to have some sort of homing device which makes them slow down if Mario's to the left of them...? And when the boss collides with these slowed-down tires it gets hurt, even though it collides with them at a much faster speed when it does its charge attack yet doesn't seem to take a hit...?

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Yeah, The Tank just shoots red projectiles randomly. One time when I was waiting for it to shoot a red projectile. But for 2 or so minutes, It didn't shoot a red projectile. Black projectiles don't hurt the tank while the red ones do. The Tank battle just felt like a Carol boss.

I'm sorry, but I'm not good at SMW hacking, so I gave up on it. That means I'm leaving SMWCentral. Bye!

Updated IPS

This should cover everything that was mention so far.
Also everything gfx-wise should be fixed, with the exception of the SMWCP coins and the coin counter in the status bar (still need Ersanio to remap those laser sprite)
Layout by LDA during C3.

- Inconsistent layer priority causes Herbert to phase through matter.

Gee, there's not mush room between those bricks there!

I suspect that block was intended to be a tile lower?

- It's now possible to take out the Thwimp Brigade with the Paratroopa shell (which may indeed be the first solution to strike the player before even considering the laser solution), and that's no fun at all, is it? Also, their dance may look more elegant (as before) if you extend the rows of 16x16 blocks to the end of the far left side of the brick platform. Incidentally, for some reason, jumping on the green Paratroopa spawned a blue shell-less Koopa colored green...?

- While part the second was an improvement as a whole, I'm a little less sure about this section. It's not incredibly clear just where the line o' laserators starts and stops, which is perhaps not too massive a problem, though it may seem a touch unexpected at first due to previous setups really just going from one end to the other, whereas this one overlaps the passage by quite a bit. Far more problematic here, however, is the bullet generator--I think it's not really the best choice here due to the cramped conditions and the amount of necessary waiting involved. The player will, for example, spend a great deal of time standing under the switch as shown above, waiting for the laserators to get into the correct position, and should a bullet appear at this height during this interval, the player will have little opportunity to avoid it, especially since it will likely come with little warning, due to the player's proximity to the edge of the screen.

IPS that corrects RN's comments above

As for the last comment of those pictures, I'd still like to keep that set up the same. It causes the player to at least slow down and think of the setup a bit instead of being able to rush through it.

Also, has anyone found all 3 SMWCoins?

As for the name Axem suggested before, I like it, but it doesn't say "Final Level" to me. Quite honestly, I have kinda grown fond of the name "Final Factory"...
Layout by LDA during C3.
Final X-Factr ^o^

Originally posted by S.N.N.

Don't you think it would look a bit better if those grey knobs on the rope were actually above the lasers and not beside them?

You still didn't fixed this bug.

Try downloading the most current ips. It was fixed 2 versions ago.
Layout by LDA during C3.
Originally posted by Lightvayne
As for the last comment of those pictures, I'd still like to keep that set up the same. It causes the player to at least slow down and think of the setup a bit instead of being able to rush through it.

Fair enough, but my larger point is that if you want to do this, I really wouldn't recommend the bullet generator, as it runs counter to the idea of slowing down and thinking things over. In fact, I almost always seemed to get into situations like this:

...where there's really no way to respond. Why not instead add a few strategically placed shooters, like you have earlier in the level?

One other thing I noticed:

If you jump directly onto this block from the lower platform, it's quite easy to get smashed against the wall.

Also, I still think the Thwimp ballet would look a touch prettier if the blocks were aranged like so.

As regards the SMWC coins, I managed to find the first and third by my own devices, though I had to peek in Lunar Magic to find the location of the second. That one's probably a little too well hidden, being in a place that's both fairly difficult to access and where few would be likely to check in the first place (in no small part due to its being difficult to access). At least a slight visual clue that something might be hidden in that direction might be in order here.

Newset IPS

This fixes all the issues pointed out by RN in the post above and also fixes the lightning bolts so they now kill sprites as suggested earlier. Also changed the set up a bit before the mid-boss.
Layout by LDA during C3.
I've tested the newest IPS and actually it was pretty good and challenging - the kind of level that should be at this stage of the game.

There was only one really strange thing I noticed and it was in 143, I think (I was going to post this yesterday but the site crashed at the same moment). It just seemed weird that the laser was going through the floor:

Other than that it was pretty good. :)
Overall the level flows better, though I still find myself wishing you wouldn't use message boxes to introduce the mechanics. Also, I may draw disagreement by saying this, but I'm not even sure the lightning needs to kill instantly.

The thing about the first smwcoin is that the invisible ceiling only disappears on that one screen. If, the first time around, players bounce up from the kooPHD in a place where the invisible ceiling is there, will they expect a secret to be in the area? Maybe if you extended the visible ceiling more to the left it would create less confusion for me personally. In its defense, though, this is the only spot where you could conceivably go over the level in the first place.

I suppose the second smwcoin is fine so long as players eventually think to jump from the correct position, but I don't like how the jump on screen F pretty much forces Big Mario to crouchjump.

The laser setups in 143 are kind of...weird.

The red herring in the first one might make you wait a bit before being able to ascend again. The bullet shooters fire immediately upon entering the sublevel, but apart from that they really don't pose much of a threat, and I feel like they shouldn't be placed so far down. If you hit the on/off switch in the upper right, you'll have to crouch jump as Big Mario out of cautiousness, so you don't accidentally hit the switch again. It's also easy to forget that those laser firers are solid as you jump...If you fall through the blue laser by accident, that's a lot to repeat, and the way you're using the lasers here, I'm ambivalent as to whether or not they should be solid.

In the second setup higher up in the sublevel, if you arrive as the lasers are traveling right, you have to sit there and wait before you can continue. Also, those bullet bills seem pretty hard to dodge. I mean, the window for jumping here is small to begin with, and they just seem to have a habit of firing at the wrong time. I also don't like how that kicking koopa appears before you're finished with this segment- I feel like it should be moved so it's only used for that setup at the end. Speaking of that setup, I actually find it pretty difficult for being after the second midway point (disregard if you start after the setup).

And then there's still the question of how to structure the rest of the stage and what to do with the (mid?)boss...but yeah, this version is an improvement over the last one I played (maybe three revisions back?).

Personally, I think putting 'Final' in the title sounds too obvious, but yeah, I guess level names are going to be subjective.

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@cstutor: Not entirely sure what do do about that, I'll have to talk to Ersanio about getting a fit for that

@Axem: SNN wanted to have someone replace at least the first message box with a cut-scene instead, which in the long run will probably work better. Can't remember who was going to do it though.

The ceiling issue is an easy fix, and will extend it like suggested.

I was hoping the coin arrow would somewhat give a hint but not be a complete dead giveaway. I can fix that jump though.

As for 143 I've been giving it some thought, and I think I may do a bit of redesign on this by having the level slowly scroll upward while still having the back and forth laser idea. Obviously, I would probably have to switch out large chunks of the level so everything flows smoothly, but then I won't have these timing issues, plus it will add a bit of challenge to it and I could probably remove the bullet bill shooters solving that issue also.

Anyone against this?
Layout by LDA during C3.
Scrolling the level would give you more control over when/how things happen, so yeah, it would probably eliminate those timing issues at the least. If that's what you're thinking, I have no objections.

Alternately, you could modify the setups so it doesn't matter which way layer 2 is scrolling upon arrival. Do what you think would work better, though :b

Youtube (Main) | Youtube (Alt) | Bandcamp | DeviantART

Man, a week sure does fly by fast these days.

While I could go with modifying that layer 2 like suggested, I see too many issues popping up with it.

Basically I'm thinking of using something like sprite D1 - Vertical Autoscroll, but it currently scrolls a bit too fast for my liking, which means I'll have to claim one of the almost extinct generator slots for a new one.

Before I even begin to start messing around with it, I want to transfer everything to a new base rom to kinda get a fresh start, currently I have some really crappy descriptions for some of the sprites/blocks, half aren't even named properly and the other half I don't plan on using anymore, so yeah hopefully by the next update I'll have something to show.
Layout by LDA during C3.
Originally posted by Lightvayne
Basically I'm thinking of using something like sprite D1 - Vertical Autoscroll, but it currently scrolls a bit too fast for my liking, which means I'll have to claim one of the almost extinct generator slots for a new one.

If you're talking about the one from the sprites section, here's a levelASM version:

	LDA $9D		;\ if sprites are locked,
	BNE .Return	;/ branch

	LDA $13		;\  the 01 controls the scrolling speed
	AND #$01	; | the higher the number, the slower the scroll
	BNE .Return	;/  it needs to be one less than a power of 2

	STZ $1412	; disable vertical scroll so that SMW's scrolling code doesn't interfere

	STZ $55		; make sure that new tiles are uploaded from the top of the screen

	LDA $1464	;\
	ORA $1465	; | if the screen has reached the very top of the level,
	BEQ .Return	;/  branch

	REP #$20	;\
	DEC $1464	; | decrease screen vertical position
	SEP #$20	;/


Final Fantasy Factory v6

First off, thank you yoshicookiezeus for the code. It saves me from taking up a sprite and having to mess with the code myself ^_^

The link above is with the modified version with the auto scroll. surprisingly enough, I really didn't have to change much layout-wise with the exception of the beginning part and where I originally had the 3rd SMWCCoin. I left the bullet bill shooters in there for now, but can easily take them out if anyone has a problem with them. Just enter the pipe at the beginning to access that area, the real entrance to the section is currently broken, so just use the pipe.
Layout by LDA during C3.
This automatic vertical scrolling does increase the difficulty a bit. For Level 8 I think it's pretty good. There's just three things that are easy fixes for this level.

Screen 7: With the vertical scrolling the scroll is indefinite if I wait too long. Maybe just push everything up to Screen 0 or stop the code at screen 7.

Screen 9: There's some weird priority mismatch with Tiles 3CDB and 3C7C. Not too hard to fix.

Screen A: I still get that weird thing with the lasers going through floors. I don't think it has to be fixed. Just create a tile for a hole where the laser goes through at (4, 6) and (0, 9) and that will fix itself.

Other than that, pretty good.
The autoscrolling is definitely an improvement in the second area, and adds a nice bit of tension which seems very appropriate for the final level. However, I think you need to widen the space between the two lasers at the beginning to compensate, since as things stand, there's hardly any room for error there, especially near the question block. Also, the 1-UP is now impossible to get if you don't have a cape, as the Paragoomba always gets zapped before the player arrives (also, the Paragoomba uses the default SMW graphics, for some reason...?).

A significant problem with the autoscrolling, however, is that it silently continues even while the game is paused, meaning leaving the game paused for too long can break the level or be outright fatal. This proved particularly vexing when trying to take screenshots.

Here, it's a bit too easy to accidentally hit the off-screen ON/OFF switch when bouncing off the noteblock and inadvertently zap Mario (who is currently being teh dedz0r off screen in this image). Jumping to the grey block to avoid this, on the other hand, almost guarantees one will be hit by the offscreen laser beam. Jumping to the ground usually means being pushed off by a laserator.

I'm not sure it's such a good idea to make this so it's unsafe both to jump and to stand still at virtually the same time, especially with that laser beam sneaking up behind you. Now, admittedly, I sort of screwed myself over in this image by pausing briefly earlier in the level (having forgotten I wasn't allowed to do this) resulting in the autoscroll advancing in such a way as to give me a virtually unwinnable setup, but even the ideal situation, it feels sort of arranged in such a way that it assumes the player knows the level layout beforehand. Remember that the autoscroll essentially takes away the player's ability to observe how various elements are timed with respect to each other, so it's important to set things up so that a player who's going through blind could conceivably react successfully to an obstacle simply if they have sufficiently good reflexes.

Still, I think you've definitely hit on the right overall concept for the section with this.

First dot needs to be moved.

The lasers... they look cut-offy to me

This laser sure made a lot (read A LOT) of slowdown to the room

Wait, the koopa's aren't redrawn?

What is this koopa doing there?

...and when I hit that koopa, it gets stuck.
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Forum Index - Events - Super Mario World Central Production 2 Completion Project - World 9 - 132: Nexus Norvegicus - Lightvayne/???

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