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(RESULTS) 5th Annual SMWCentral Level Design Competition

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I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

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Originally posted by xlk
The reason(probably) for most of the level's designerss' complaints is because they aren't profesinals at level design,


Nobody here is a pro.

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so they have to put lots of efort into something that latter is given a low score compared to the efort, while others make levels whith utter ease and get a good ranking.This may not be an excuse, but it is a reason.


And that is not the judges' problem that the contest entrants may be inferior in level design compared to others and entered a level design contest with these people. We understand that many people put a lot of effort into their levels, but fact of the matter is that many of these people's efforts just simply were not good enough, they focused in the wrong areas, or a combination of both.

Many people here (and in previous and future since I know this will not be the last time it's going to happen) need to prioritize making quality levels before anything else. A visual or technical masterpiece alone will not make you win contests. (at least as long as I participate as a judge in anything, others may be more forgiving than I am). Sling mud, slander, throw rocks, bitch, piss, moan, cry, complain, and carry/harbor petty grudges all you want- if I don't think your level's good and if I am a judge/mod/whatever, you will not do well in these contests. I am not here to kiss your boo-boos and tell you it's going to get all better.

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Also, an idea:why not have these contest have categories(with badges) and a general ranking(prizes) instead of one only final score?That way, people can do great aescetics, great level design, or whatever, and see how they compare to others.


That would only encourage the behavior we're out against in these contests.

Wow, that was so not directed at you, even less with that intention.I was just pointing out something, not complaining.
Any way, why is this thread still open anyways?
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This thread is still open because it has only been three days since the results were posted and my offer to give comments for those who didn't receive them is still open. Just because it turned into a bunch of back and forth arguing doesn't mean I'm going to close it. Frankly, this seems to happen every year. A shame really.

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I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

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Originally posted by xlk
Wow, that was so not directed at you, even less with that intention.I was just pointing out something, not complaining.



And I was giving you a response. People should not ask for a free pass on something just because they chose not to have their heads on straight or surround themselves with sycophants.



Originally posted by FirePhoenix
This thread is still open because it has only been three days since the results were posted and my offer to give comments for those who didn't receive them is still open.

Actually, I'd like to know what your comments on my level were, since you were kinda quiet about stuff during the stream.
Congrats to the winners. I always seem to miss out on this contest for some reason.

Also i'm LPing all the entries if you want to watch on my channelshameless plug
My god what happened in this thread.

Anyway, FP, what were your thoughts about my level? I wonder, because it was my first level in about a year.
I'm also interested in FP's thoughts on my level.
Just wanted to say I asked Axem because I wasn't entirely sure about his critsism and not *zomg me no haz high score*
^Above just to make sure if someone counts me as the guys who "exaggerated"

Although I'm pretty sure FP will say similar or maybe even exactly the same things like the other judges, I would still like to read your thoughts (maybe they provide something new)
Hey FP, I'd also like to see your comments on my entry. Your score greatly differs from the other judges so it'd be interesting to read.
i play videogames
Although I didn't place very high in the contest I had a barrel of fun making the level, and it was more than worth entering for the sheer volume of helpful feedback I got. I don't see why people are bashing the judges because they gave "low scores", where's the fun in something if you've got no way to improve? All that's left now for me is to practice and try harder next time. Congratulations to the winners and hearty cheers to the judges for going well above the call of duty!
Man, now I really wish I'd participated in the contest...I could have gotten some valuable level design feedback from multiple people. I probably would have done poorly, considering about the only feedback I remember from any of my levels was Maxx saying that the design was too linear and most people agreeing that my SMWCP2 level was full of fake difficulty, but still...it might have been fun and useful. I guess there's always the next level design contest to look forward to. I'll try out some of the entries once I have time, in any case.

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I'm working on a hack! Check it out here. Progress: 64/95 levels.
Originally posted by imamelia
Man, now I really wish I'd participated in the contest...I could have gotten some valuable level design feedback from multiple people. I probably would have done poorly, considering about the only feedback I remember from any of my levels was Maxx saying that the design was too linear and most people agreeing that my SMWCP2 level was full of fake difficulty, but still...it might have been fun and useful. I guess there's always the next level design contest to look forward to. I'll try out some of the entries once I have time, in any case.


Some of the entries should give you an idea on how their level got that rank. Just reading the feedback after playing said level can help you learn to make better level design.

Example: The bottom two entries got low scores because of unreasonable difficulty.
I no longer have interest in SMW Hacking as I did when I first started several years ago.
If anyone wants to see these levels LP'd, I am doing a full let's play of all the levels in this contest. It should be starting on Monday. Also, everyone probably already knows, but raocow is making videos of the first 11 levels.
I'd like to make a suggestion for all future official contests here: no scores, no rankings; just commentary (bullets, essays, whatever), and at the end, the judges unanimously agree on prize/trophy/etc. winners through discussion, not average score.

This certainly doesn't apply to everyone, but the more I see some of the extremely negative reactions people have upon seeing levels' rankings (and it's almost always the rankings that bother them, not the commentary itself), the more I feel such a system is unnecessarily arbitrary and a waste of time. Somewhere along the line, people forget that reviews are inherently subjective, cherry-picking the comments with which they disagree and using them to justify the argument that the reviewers should be more objective in their scoring, ignoring the fact that the stuff they didn't single out for scorn is just as subjective. I think tossing out the numbers entirely would deemphasize this "quest for objectivity," re-orient these contests around feedback (as they should), and alleviate much of the mudslinging that invariably occurs when the results are posted.

Just my two cents.


Edit: As an example of an alternate system, you could have around 8 competent judges but have each of them only look at and comment on a fraction of the entries (random, anonymized selection)(which would alleviate judges not participating due to time constraints). Then, each judge picks the levels in their set that are most eligible for winning whatever and come together to discuss those levels. The judges could play (without commenting) other sets to balance out biases if necessary, but I don't personally think that would be a huge problem, because without the numbers/rankings game, and with an anonymized selection, there's less overt reason to down/upvote anything. All you need are judges with holistic viewpoints.
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That would be interesting, but it really would be just treating a symptom. Narcissistic behavior in the people who can't handle it probably won't go away, the impact just might be lessened.
Originally posted by AxemJinx
I'd like to make a suggestion for all future official contests here: no scores, no rankings; just commentary (bullets, essays, whatever), and at the end, the judges unanimously agree on prize/trophy/etc. winners through discussion, not average score.

This certainly doesn't apply to everyone, but the more I see some of the extremely negative reactions people have upon seeing levels' rankings (and it's almost always the rankings that bother them, not the commentary itself), the more I feel such a system is unnecessarily arbitrary and a waste of time. Somewhere along the line, people forget that reviews are inherently subjective, cherry-picking the comments with which they disagree and using them to justify the argument that the reviewers should be more objective in their scoring, ignoring the fact that the stuff they didn't single out for scorn is just as subjective. I think tossing out the numbers entirely would deemphasize this "quest for objectivity," re-orient these contests around feedback (as they should), and alleviate much of the mudslinging that invariably occurs when the results are posted.

Just my two cents.


Edit: As an example of an alternate system, you could have around 8 competent judges but have each of them only look at and comment on a fraction of the entries (random, anonymized selection)(which would alleviate judges not participating due to time constraints). Then, each judge picks the levels in their set that are most eligible for winning whatever and come together to discuss those levels. The judges could play (without commenting) other sets to balance out biases if necessary, but I don't personally think that would be a huge problem, because without the numbers/rankings game, and with an anonymized selection, there's less overt reason to down/upvote anything. All you need are judges with holistic viewpoints.


PLEASE. ACTUALLY. IMPLEMENT. THIS.

The suggestion you made is way better than what was being pulled off in the past. I agree with you, the past rating system was nothing but a waste of time plus bringing up drama. It was like that: (This is a example BTW)

Person A likes your level. Good score given.

Person B finds your level to be kinda average, but still enjoyable. Mediocre score given.

See, if it was being cut at that point, everything would go good. But people have different opinions, so this happens:

Person C finds your level is a piece of shit, findsor wants to come up with any nonexisting problems.

See, only ONE bad rating can downgrade your level gradually, not giving any chance to you to still come in a good place.

The new rating system you suggested is a lot better, and it would be even more better if there were more judges, because more judges = more opinions = more chance the right rating is being given.
"Right rating"

You do realize this is all subjective, right? What if your level is a piece of shit and a few people just don't have the heart to tell you? ;)
What you're saying, KevKot, is more of a "only put nice people as judges and preferably only one", just so you can have a good rating.

Originally posted by KevKot
The new rating system you suggested is a lot better, and it would be even more better if there were more judges, because more judges = more opinions = more chance the right rating is being given.

And how is that any different with the current system?
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I still don't get something... about the thread itself.
I said my thoughts, but after that i don't want to go over, because it's not i can hypnotize people... that would be boring, actually.
But why are we still discussing the ratings? I too am not happy of them (and to say the truth, i'm still a bit annoyed), but you cannot get them back. Let's see what happens with the 24 hours contest, let's not poisoning ourself for bullcrap. If the judges don't like your level, no matter, you don't have to agree with them, even if you want to read their opinions. Judges could be right, but they could even not be right. And so, if many people apprecciated your work, you should be happy, if some didn't like it for some reason, that doesn't matter: if even few people liked your work, it means there is something of good in your work. This applies everywhere. I want to do an example: i remember a Saturday Morning Cartoon called Denver, the Last Dinosaur: it talks about... my father! Well, i bet many people would feel some nostalgia on it, and they could still enjoy that cartoon, even if there is one people i know in Comics that says that Denver is incredibly bad because it's a Saturday Morning Cartoon and because of its animation... kids like it, why does that matter? Even if people judge it in a professional way, it doesn't mean it is a suck work. Look, even mathelete's level, which got the last place, may be enjoyabe by kaizoers (maybe not, it may be too easy for kaizoers *is shot*). And even the judges, if they knew that level was going to get the last place of sure, they could have even had a laugh on it instead of being so severe: it's not like severity will change things.
And so, this contest is over, and, for my likes, it even lasted too much (it started on Febraury and ended in April). Now we are waiting another contest after the C3 and the System's war (W System).

BTW, FirePhoenix did forget something: didn't he want to give some thoughts on our levels? Or is he busy for the war? And now that i'm here, FP what were your thoughts of my level, aside from the Results ranking?
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