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Apple.
Forum Index - Donut Plains - General Discussion - Apple.
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In my dealings with the site--the forums and the IRC--I have noticed that a good amount of users dislike Apple Inc. and its products. As someone who is about to buy a Mac but who is generally against the idea of being a 'fanboy', I would like to ask why. The following three basic questions will hopefully help guide the discussion.

1. What do you think of Apple as a company? This includes policies, acticities, the way consumers and the public are treated, and such.

2. What do you think about Apple's products? What are your thoughts on iPods, iPhones, iPads, Macs, and anything made by Apple. This also includes software like iTunes and Pages.

3. If you dislike Apple, its products, or both, why? This is the big question, and it deserves a real answer. "Apple sux"/"I hate Apple because their computers are shitty"/etc. are not real answers. What exactly about Apple and/or its products do you not like?

Please, for God's sake, play nicely. I know this is a contentious topic amongst computer people.

I will give my own thoughts a bit later.
I generally dislike their interfaces and lack of customizable hardware. Otherwise, meh.
Personally, I don't like the fact that Apple seems to market itself as nonconformist whereas its various products aren't very customizable at all. Some of their products also seem ridiculously overpriced given what components they use. In essence, it's as though they profit off of user ignorance toward computers to an extent, in much the same way that the Wii appealed to people who up until that point were largely ignorant toward video games.

These are all merely impressions, though. The reason I don't have a Mac is because I'm comfortable with the computer I already have and see no need to switch or buy another.

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Honestly, I think Apple has an amazing company, one of the things that excited me was the game Angry Birds.^^

Yes, Apple makes great devices, but the only thing that Apple was not that good, was in computers, unfortunately.

Still, Apple is a company more than amazing to me.
large image:

http://i.imgur.com/9hlL0.jpg

This explains the pricing issues with references. If you aren't convinced after that, I don't know what I can do to tell you Apple's products are overpriced.

As for their policies, I pretty much avoid buying their products out of a distaste for the way they do business. I swear, if there's one thing in this world that can be called evil, it's the way that that company does what it does to make its next few dollars. There's currently a thread in the news forum about some companies making it illegal to sell used products such as iPhones. That's just horrid.

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They have wonderful products. They just need to make them ETHICALLY. What I mean is, I've gotten e-mails about how they force people to make products in unsafe working conditions. They have not followed through on their pledge to treat workers ethically.
I do think Macs are user friendly tho.

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Originally posted by Amos Defamos
Originally posted by Camerin
1. What do you think of Apple as a company? This includes policies, acticities, the way consumers and the public are treated, and such.
I absolutely abhor the way they do business and how they try to kill the competition with extortion-like tactics. It just shows how the patent system is broken right now and how software patents are a ridiculous idea overall. They've gotten patents for things so obvious, a 10 year old could design them (for example, a simple regex that makes phone numbers and addresses clickable in web browsers) and they use said patents unfairly against their competitors whenever they do something even remotely similar.


They also charge a crapload for products that are essentially "status symbols" with more style than function that are heavily locked down compared to their competitors. Most of the time, you can get an equal or better computer for the fraction of the cost Apple sells them at.

Originally posted by Camerin
2. What do you think about Apple's products? What are your thoughts on iPods, iPhones, iPads, Macs, and anything made by Apple. This also includes software like iTunes and Pages.
They're pretty, but that's pretty much all they have going for them. iPhones are heavily locked down and more expensive when compared to Android phones. Their computers are also overpriced for what you get and OSX is too restrictive for my tastes. Though to be fair, you're not absolutely forced to use OSX since you can install any other OS you want.


Originally posted by Camerin
3. If you dislike Apple, its products, or both, why? This is the big question, and it deserves a real answer. "Apple sux"/"I hate Apple because their computers are shitty"/etc. are not real answers. What exactly about Apple and/or its products do you not like?
I've answered that in the points above, but to recap:

1). Abhorrent business practices
2). Style over substance
3). Overpriced and restrictive products for what they are
4). Better alternatives

True. Plus, they're tying to make hacking your very own iphone illegal and they posess the horrible means to remotely delete Your Own Copy Of An App. DRM pervades their products, and Itunes is shit.
Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with this irrefuable data.

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iTunes is shit.

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Irrefutable data.


...What?

Anyway, I think a lot of you are right in that Apple is so intent on making money that they don't mind whom they need to crush or subject to terrible working conditions. Of course, Microsoft is not a saintly company itself.

I think that I lost a good deal of respect for Apple after the affair surrounding Foxconn. I generally have zero respect for multinational corporations in general, though, especially since they have legal personhood status.

The main reason I am buying a Mac is because I do not want the hassle of having a difficult computer. It cannot be denied that modifying a Mac is nearly impossible, and Macs don't have nearly the flexibility of other computers. However, for someone who is not as tech-savvy and who really has no time to eff around with modifications, codecs, drivers, and all that lovely stuff, having a computer that is user-friendly and knowing the exact company to call if I have a technical problem are plusses for me.
Originally posted by Camerin
However, for someone who is not as tech-savvy and who really has no time to eff around with modifications, codecs, drivers, and all that lovely stuff, having a computer that is user-friendly and knowing the exact company to call if I have a technical problem are plusses for me.

Of course, if you can afford buying a whole new Mac or sending it in whenever you want to upgrade something or whenever even a single computer part breaks, then that definitely is a plus.

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Macs really aren't any easier to use than other computers. What happens, though, is that the different interface makes it harder to use other types of computers after you've used a Mac for a long time. I speak from personal experience here, having solely used Apple computers for about 10 years before owning a PC. Macs aren't worth the money, and nearly every computer problem (windows or otherwise) can be solved by googling "how do you x".

When jimbo1qaz mentioned iTunes, I think he was talking about the Windows port, which as far as I can tell was designed to be bad on purpose to convince people to buy a Mac. Here are some avid Mac users attesting to the quality of iTunes.

In terms of irrefutable data, I've given you cost comparisons, and other users have given you lots of factual information as well.

Really, there's no use for a Mac in any context that you personally could experience. Don't waste your money, Camerin.

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Originally posted by Blizzard Man
Honestly, I think Apple has an amazing company, one of the things that excited me was the game Angry Birds.^^

what. Angry birds is not even something of all that much content and it's available on ALL smartphones, not just apple. #w{:s}


Also I'm not really too fond on Apple. Their iPads and iPhones are expensive as fuck in my country, when Samsung phones can do pretty much the same thing and are cheaper. Also I don't like Mac computers because it's incompatible with a lot of stuff that would be available on Windows.
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to hear birds and see none.
You are aware of me and cou's stance on it.

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Great furthering of the discussion.
Apple isn't the only offender, but they are reliant on conflict minerals in the Congo. Apple needs certain minerals for production (the LCD screen for example) and by purchasing them in this region, they spur violent conflict over who in the Congo gets to sell them. There are several news pieces on the subject and I recommend you check it out. It isn't terribly difficult for Apple to become conflict-free either.

Also, there are horror stories on the Chinese sweatshops Apple uses. 16 hours a day and 70 cent wages, yikes. Given the excess profits they have now, a bit of domestic production and higher wages wouldn't be a terrible choice.

Outside of that, as someone that grew up with old Macs until I finally got a PC as a teen, their hardware's frustrating. From what I've heard, Mac's compatibly with PC programs has improved, (WINE and the like) but not being able to download and run many programs on Mac computers is infuriating. The lack of right click/mouse wheel on Macs is frustrating too. It works for people that want a simple interface and basic computer functions, but it just doesn't do what I need in a computer. Ditto for the iPad, which costs as much as a cheap laptop but seems to have less features than one.

That being said, I do have an iPhone 4S, but I'm not looking for quite the same things in a phone. I don't really use apps that frequently, but the browser is quite handy, especially when away from home. After reading about Apple's terrible treatment of workers and fueling of wars, I regret having one.
I actually remember seeing a report about the same Congo problem a couple years back. I believe the mineral was called Coltan; however, my memory may be running short. I found it abhorring that they would need to use so much of this mineral, and they will continue to need more and more as their product line grows. Adding to the fact that they import it from war-torn countries where the mineral is practically mined by children.

I'll include my two cents on the topic from my own experience with my own Macbook. For one, I will admit that it was initially a very nice refresh when coming from a standard Windows machine; I knew very little about Linux at the time. In comparison to Windows, I had found that the environment provided an of ease of use, and was relatively easy to navigate; however, that is a personal opinion, others will disagree. In the year that I relied heavily on it I loved being able to use it as "[i]t just work[ed]" to quote to Steve Jobs. Granted some things that I used on Windows did not work on the Mac OS, but I managed to adapt.

It was only after obtaining my Macbook that I learned more about their business practices (which I find rather childish to put it lightly) and how they conduct themselves in other countries. I had not looked at this beforehand, I only looked at their products. Having learned this now, and the unnecessary overpricing of their products, I started to regret my purchase. Not fully, but for the most part.

At this point I'm somewhat torn on this debate. As a company, I can understand their business model in their desire to make a large amount of money. I don't agree with the methods, but I understand the model. And at the same time, I can understand why the common consumer likes their products, simply because of the "flashiness" of the product. The common user doesn't really know (or care for that matter) about the guts of the machine, similar to this community; the common user really only cares that it works for their needs without any hitches.

This is probably because of the buyers remorse that I've been feeling for my products as of late, but I suppose I'll put myself with the anti-Apple people. Again, I understand how and why Apple and the common consumer work, but that's something I'd rather not be a part of.

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Although I respect not wanting to buy Apple products because of the company's policies and international activity, I find the idea of selective ethics a bit odd.

Multinational corporations are evil entities, but they are very real and significant parts of our lives. The clothes we wear are made in sweatshops where people may work longer hours at less pay than Apple sweatshops. Every time we eat at a chain restaurant, the food served is often made by people working long hours in environments where animals are brutally slaughtered (one good reason to go Kosher/Halal). Unless you are a Mennonite or an ascetic, you cannot avoid benefiting from bottom-line-oriented, human-rights-abusing multinational corporations. Yet, most people do not bat an eyebrow at them. Does that make them ignorant?

In the world we live in today, not buying or regretting buying a company's products because of that company's international policies is not always taking the moral high ground, though those people will tell you that it is. So, you decide not to buy an Apple product and see yourself as being moral. You think this as you consider which video-game you are going to play, not really stopping to think about the single mother starving herself to feed her children who made the parts that make your games and systems tick.

If you built your own home, designed your own appliances, put together your own computer, play only Indie video-games, grow your own food, and work at a job with a clean local, national, and international operation record, then Kudos to you--you can call yourself moral in terms of not having a thing to do with international corporations. As for the rest of us, having qualms about buying an Apple product because of Apple's reputation is absolutely fine, but do not ever consider yourself any more moral than someone who owns an iPhone or a Mac. You are probably unknowingly supporting some other evil multinational corporation--like Microsoft.
1. What do you think of Apple as a company?
Apple's big idea is the enforcement of (as my dad puts it) "the ecosystem" of Apple products. Considering their first commercial was a big thing on 1984, their policy sure is quite the Big Brother. I've seen my dad work, and the annoyance when hooking up a MacBook to a projector gets on both of our nerves.

2. What do you think about Apple's products?
I am personally a Windows user, and I prefer Windows because I can get around my environment easily and restrict free. Apple's idea is to take out anything the casual user wouldn't use to streamline everything. This is bad for everybody who actually likes to tinker with comps.

3. If you dislike Apple, its products, or both, why?
I can't stand them because of their inaccessibility to Windows and Linux users along with the Big Brother-like approach to products.

Originally posted by Assorted Users
iTunes


iTunes is pretty sucky, and if I didn't have a niceish laptop my comp would constantly crash due to the 50% CPU USAGE!!!!!11! But the alternative: Winamp? #w{x(}
The "being against Apple is problematic because we buy into big bad corporations elsewhere" argument falls on its face because cell phones may not be necessary, and even if they are, they come with several options. You need food and clothing in society, and yes, they often come from a terrible process. Yes, you can be selective in that process (for instance, I've been a lifelong vegetarian, you can support fair trade products, etc) but you're forced to support inhuman practices for some basic resources. It sucks, it's a result of a lack of basic international trade standards, and it needs to change. Phones, computers, and other luxuries? They're not so necessary.

For instance, there are several statistics on the level of conflict minerals different phone and computer companies use. You can choose companies that use little or none of them for phones and other resources. Buying a used phone or computer would also save and recycle things. It's one thing to be naive about the effects of purchasing something. It's another to be quite aware of the damage you may be doing and turn a blind eye, especially when it's easy to avoid making such a choice. If you do know, it would probably make sense to make a responsible and utilitarian decision. That's a personal choice though, and obviously many don't understand the effects of buying certain things. That's not a reason to give up if you're concerned.

I regret buying an iPhone on a personal utilitarian level. Among several choices of phones, I chose one that supports war, violence, and subjugation of others. Had I made a different choice, I could've avoided that support. If buying an old phone verses buying a new one would've saved 1/100th of a life, that'd still outweigh the small amount of pleasure I'd gain with a shiny new phone. That's a personal choice, and where one falls depends on their own standards/morals/what have you.

One can go quite far in terms of selflessness, charity, and independence from consumerism, but taking that to an extreme example and trying to lump that with an easy decision on phones/computers only makes my argument a strawman. This is also coming from someone that doesn't use a phone that frequently. Using an older one would be a very small loss in my situation at least.

The abuse of multiple corporations shouldn't be a reason to give up in every instance and be intentionally ignorant. Rather, it should be a call to action and encourage awareness on this and other issues. Ultimately, it's fair to say most people want a world where sweatshops and war-fueled resources don't exist. It's also fair to say completely giving up only lets them stay longer. Surely there's a way of life where one can live reasonably while avoiding especially harmful decisions. Making a considerate choice on an optional luxury easily falls in there. Obviously though, that's a choice for each individual to make, not me. For someone like me at least, it's an issue I take seriously.

Additionally, any extrapolation on someone "taking the moral high ground" or appearing "better" than someone else because they don't like Apple's practices isn't a position I held in my first post. The whole conflict mineral issue was one I heard about from another speaker at a speech tournament and since have become more sensitive to. Knowing about it doesn't make me better than anyone else, it just weighs me with an additional consideration when making a choice on phones and computers. It's not a consideration I regret having.

Peter Singer has a very interesting argument on the subject. He's rather extreme, but admirable and it's a worthwhile read.
Can't really comment on the Apple company (and I really don't feel like getting involved with that discussion either), but I do own an iPod (classic) and use iTunes, and I'm fairly satisfied with both. Sure, there are the times when I just can't find the right version of a song I'm looking for, but in general, I can find what I want on iTunes.

The iPod is the only Apple product I currently own, though, and I don't really have much of an interest in getting an iPhone or iPad. All I needed was something to store and play the songs I like (and not be like the damn radio with its lengthy commercials and such), and the iPod does that. So, I'm satisfied.

As for their other products, like Macs, I've always heard that they're more difficult to use, so...whatever. I tend to be pretty laid-back on these kinds of issues, so I won't go much further than "I like the iPod and iTunes but don't really care either way about anything else to do with Apple."
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1. What do you think of Apple as a company? This includes policies, acticities, the way consumers and the public are treated, and such.

I don't currently own or have purchased any Apple products, however I have used an Apple computer before. I like Apple as a company; I feel that they market best towards a more artistic audience.

2. What do you think about Apple's products? What are your thoughts on iPods, iPhones, iPads, Macs, and anything made by Apple. This also includes software like iTunes and Pages.

Like I said, I've used a Mac several times before. And it has it's advantages over the PC as well as disadvantages. To me, I see Apple's products as more inclined for media and art. The iPod/Phone/Pad really doesn't appeal to me since I feel I don't really need it.

3. If you dislike Apple, its products, or both, why? This is the big question, and it deserves a real answer. "Apple sux"/"I hate Apple because their computers are shitty"/etc. are not real answers. What exactly about Apple and/or its products do you not like?

I've already mentioned that I like Apple as a company, it's just that I prefer my PC. I also mention that Apple has it's disadvantages; I feel that most programs I'm acquainted with don't run as well on a Mac.

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I no longer have interest in SMW Hacking as I did when I first started several years ago.
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