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Enforcing SNES compatibility?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - Enforcing SNES compatibility?
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I think I remember a really long time ago someone said that all future smw hacks should have SNES compatibility to them an order to be submitted in the smwc database.

Is this true?



Final
I hope this is not true. While I think it is nice to recommend SNES compatibility, there is a difference between RECOMMEND and ENFORCE. I think enforcing it is too harsh. While it may be a hack submission guideline, if somebody's hack is not SNES-compatible, that should not stop them from making a thread about their hack (even if they don't submit the hack).

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don't click this link...
On the contrary, I would love to see that happen (though it is very hard to screw up a hack with today's tools). When the new hack section comes around, I seriously hope that all non-compatible hacks are required to have tags noting that they are incompatible.
Can someone tell me some hacks with custom powerups that are snes compatible?
Our policy is that all file content and the tools on the site must be compatible with the SNES/bsnes and newest versions of the other major emulators (Snes9X v1.53 and ZSNES 1.51 at this moment), but hacks themselves won't (yet, who knows, with all this debate, really), they merely need a warning as to whether or not they are compatible.

World Community Grid: Thread | Team
 
While I agree that hacks that are being submitted should be compatible, not everybody will submit their hack. Some will just make a thread in the "completed hacks" or "works in progress" subforum. If that is the case, then compatibility should not be enforced.

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Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

I see no reason why SNES compatibility cannot be enforced since mid-2011. If you're unwilling to "get with the times" and use the tools and resources that will let your hack run on Snes9x 1.52+/bsnes/an actual SNES, it's your own problem and expect me to reject your hack on that reason alone.

By all intents and purposes people, AM4 is basically a "proper" version of Romi's Addmusic.

I never said there is anything wrong with rejecting hacks that are incompatible with SNES. I'm just saying that if a person is making a thread (note, there is a difference between a hack thread and a hack submission), they should not be harshly criticized for something this minor. Also, what if they come up with some form of ASM that only works on ZSNES but not SNES? While that hack cannot be in the Hacks section, it can certainly be in a thread in the "works in progress" or "full releases". My point is that SNES compatibility is something very minor. While it is recommended, an incompatible hack should not be criticized too harshly when there are other more important reasons to criticize a hack.

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don't click this link...
Originally posted by MrDeePay
I see no reason why SNES compatibility cannot be enforced since mid-2011. If you're unwilling to "get with the times" and use the tools and resources that will let your hack run on Snes9x 1.52+/bsnes/an actual SNES, it's your own problem and expect me to reject your hack on that reason alone.

By all intents and purposes people, AM4 is basically a "proper" version of Romi's Addmusic.

Well said. All of the tools we host are SNES-compatible, so it's reasonable to expect that any hacks submitted should be, even if the current standards might not fit that. If it breaks because the hack author coded some ASM improperly, then if they have enough skill to code anything in the first place, they ought to be able to make it work on hardware. If it breaks because of some unknown bug or because somebody else's ASM (not in the resource sections) was coded improperly, well, we have forums for getting help with that. I'm not a hack moderator, but if I were, I'd be testing hacks on bsnes (accuracy mode if I could), and any hack that didn't work would go straight into the trash, with a note about what broke. Legacy hacks can get away with it because we didn't know at a time that they wouldn't run on hardware; hacks made nowadays have no good excuse.
While I think it would be really cool to have all of the newer hacks being SNES compatible I think at the very least we should have a little icon next to the download to indicate whether they are or are not SNES compatible. If we put in the effort to put a special icon next to a Demo hack then why not put an SNES icon next to an SNES compatible hack too?


Here is an example:





I just think a hack has more meaning or its more official if it's SNES compatible. Not only can it run in the emulator world on the computer, but it can also run on a console in real life. Who knows in ten years someone might actually be wanting to play your hack on a cartridge one day.


Final
Originally posted by Final Theory
Who knows in ten years someone might actually be wanting to play your hack on a cartridge one day.

Some people already do.

I'd rather see an icon for hacks that don't work on real hardware, to signify that "yes, this works" should be the default. It's sad that we even need to consider the opposite idea.

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<blm> zsnes users are the flatearthers of emulation
Originally posted by Final Theory
If we put in the effort to put a special icon next to a Demo hack then why not put an SNES icon next to an SNES compatible hack too?

what if it's both a demo and snes compatible ?_?

makes more sense to put it in the name or something, like with patches/sprites/blocks/etc, aka "[SNES]dumb hack" or "[NO SNES]lol hack"
That would be a good idea, though I'd go with Alcaro's suggestion. Maybe a SNES icon with a slashed circle over it to indicate that it doesn't work on hardware? That could go along with...um, other stuff mentioned in that one staff discussion thread. How many hack moderators have a flash cart to test a hack on, and how many can test them bsnes-compatibility or better?
I think that bsnes can perform reasonably well even with a slightly lower-end system, really. People exaggerate how resource-intensive it is. I don't see any reason why the mods can't use bsnes.
Working on stuff again...slowly...
I'm all for it, honestly. It's rather annoying when I want to play hacks on my SNES with SD2SNES and I have to do guesswork before I can find a hack that works.
Originally posted by mathelete
I never said there is anything wrong with rejecting hacks that are incompatible with SNES. I'm just saying that if a person is making a thread (note, there is a difference between a hack thread and a hack submission), they should not be harshly criticized for something this minor. Also, what if they come up with some form of ASM that only works on ZSNES but not SNES? While that hack cannot be in the Hacks section, it can certainly be in a thread in the "works in progress" or "full releases". My point is that SNES compatibility is something very minor. While it is recommended, an incompatible hack should not be criticized too harshly when there are other more important reasons to criticize a hack.

No one is suggesting that people shouldn't be able to make threads about their non working hacks, just that they shouldn't be able to submit them to the hacks section.

Originally posted by mathelete
I'm just saying that if a person is making a thread (note, there is a difference between a hack thread and a hack submission), they should not be harshly criticized for something this minor

The game breaks whenever I die. I don't think I'd call that a "minor problem", and I will harshly criticize people if they have that in their hack.

Originally posted by mathelete
what if they come up with some form of ASM that only works on ZSNES but not SNES

A) That's the only problem that has ever existed. No one has ever made, for instance, level data that only works in zsnes.

B) Then they did it wrong (objectively).

@Adam: Where did you buy your sd2snes,by the way? Deoesn't seem to be in stock anywhere.
Originally posted by HuFlungDu
The game breaks whenever I die. I don't think I'd call that a "minor problem", and I will harshly criticize people if they have that in their hack.

I think he means a hack shouldn't be judged solely on that aspect. There's noting wrong about pointing out (or criticizing, if you prefer) that in a hack, but you need to have in mind that the hack itself goes beyond compatibility and accuracy. Opinions may vary, but personally, I would still enjoy using ZSNES to play a fun hack even if it's not SNES compatible.

Regarding the original question, there's still no consensus about whenever compatibility should be enforced or not, but if it's going to be enforced, I think it should be enforced with all major emulators (i.e. the bsnes, snes9x ZSNES triad). Most people don't play hacks in a real snes, actually, most people don't even use bsnes, so if compatibility is enforced for bsnes it should also be enforced for ZSNES and snes9x.

Extras



I should have something witty to put here (even if it's just to update dated info), shouldn't I?

Advertising Space

SNES compatibility should be enforced. People are modifying a Super Nintendo game, so realistically it should work on an actual Super Nintendo. The most common cause of hacks failing to work on an SNES or more accurate emulators was taken care of when Addmusic 4 was released back in April of 2011. There is no credible reason why SNES compatibility could not have been enforced back then and there is no credible reason why is can't be enforced now.

If a hack author doesn't care enough to make sure their hack works properly on all major emulators (for SMW, Snes9x1.52+ and bsnes are good enough), then why should I care enough to play it? Not everyone likes or wants to use ZSNES.

Originally posted by aj6666
Most people don't play hacks in a real snes, actually, most people don't even use bsnes, so if compatibility is enforced for bsnes it should also be enforced for ZSNES and snes9x.

I disagree. The main reason there should be compatibility enforcement on hacks submitted to the site is not so everyone can play them without the inconvenience of switching emulators, it's so that the games can still be played after certain emulators no longer work (I haven't had a computer that I could use zsnes on for months). The safest way to do that is just to enforce full compatibility with the SNES. Compatibility with zsnes simply doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
Not to mention that emulators won't get less accurate over time. Five years from now, or ten, anything that worked on the SNES now will still work just as well, while anything that didn't stands an even higher chance of breaking. If ZSNES 2.0 ever actually comes out, then even it won't be able to play those old broken hacks. There's also the matter of things that less accurate emulators simply don't emulate or can't handle at all (pseudo-hires, HDMA sound sample streaming, some offset-per-tile functionality, certain features of the SA-1, etc.). Why should I be forbidden to use techniques that are perfectly valid features of the platform I'm coding for because a program that hasn't been updated in at least 6 years doesn't support them?
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