Banner
Views: 992,863,115
Time:
8 users online: Ahrion,  bebn legg, DashGamer, Hayashi Neru, Neidave, pakkie, thestrongbadman, UTF - Guests: 37 - Bots: 98 Users: 54,455 (2,086 active)
Latest: vampirelich
Tip: There's a fine line between difficult and unfair - avoid the latter.
Not logged in.
Killjoys in SMW Hacks?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - Killjoys in SMW Hacks?
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 » Link
Originally posted by infesting
Originally posted by mathelete
What if their graphics were replaced? Would it still be a killjoy for you? When you say munchers, do you mean hurt-blocks in general?


Actually if their graphics are replaced I don't mind them (or hurt blocks) at all, unless they are spammed. It is something about the graphics of the orginal munchers that I dislike. However, I still prefer moving enemies and complex obstacles over hurt blocks.

This.

I wouldn't go as far to say that I don't like munchers, but I like spikes or clever blocks more than just the regular muncher, but I use them when I ever I feel necessary. Though, I wouldn't say I dislike the hack more just because they use them. Floating Munchers or stacked, are a very different story however...

--------------------
Your layout has been removed.


If you thought Chucks blocking doors/pipes was bad, have a flipping POKEY blocking a pipe.

It's also annoying that there's a bro enemy for everything and they're the only enemies used in some levels I've played. Get something original guys!

--------------------
Usually inactive/procrastinating on a hack idea.
A real killjoy for me are repetitive/copy-pasted sections and overuse of global enemies/generic walking enemies on flat ground. It's more common on hacks than I thought it would be, to be honest .-.
A killjoy would be when I have to go back and forth through the same area multiple times to get items such as switches. Yes, I am looking at you, Cave Void. It is monotonous, and it makes me think "I better not need another pswitch...oh crap, yes I do"

--------------------
don't click this link...
Some levels that feel like they were copy-pasted out of a level design guide. There's nothing wrong with them, but at the same time, they're rather bland and boring.

As for overused music, I never want to hear 'In a Snow-bound Land' from DKC2 ever again in my life, and the next person to use it in a water level can go to hell. #smw{>:|}

--------------------
Usually inactive/procrastinating on a hack idea.
Originally posted by GloriousWater
Some levels that feel like they were copy-pasted out of a level design guide. There's nothing wrong with them, but at the same time, they're rather bland and boring.

As for overused music, I never want to hear 'In a Snow-bound Land' from DKC2 ever again in my life, and the next person to use it in a water level can go to hell. #smw{>:|}


I don't get why it would be used in a water level, unless the water level has a freeze mechanic to it. It seems more like a slippery level song.

Which is another thing that annoys me. Music that seems out of place, but is inserted for the sake of it being there.

--------------------
don't click this link...
My biggest killjoy is when people use N00b bosses. Though the other bosses can get played out especially Thwomp Boss and yes I hate to admit it even some of my own sprites as bosses, N00b bosses are simply annoying.

--------------------
Check my page http://marioepicjourney.blogspot.com to find more updates about my hack Super Mario: The Epic Journey.
Do keep in mind I'm not trying to bitch, I just want to state my honest opinion.
I have that right, right?


Simply put, when people start getting paid to SMW hack is when I actually see any kind of improvement in SMW hack level design. Let's face it, even with all the new tools coming out, there isn't anymore new resources hardly being released anymore, nothing original, and with the amount of people hacking, I can bet anything has already been done somewhere.

To all people who play hacks, you may as well get used to things like overused music, the same bosses over and over again, and some little quirks like item babysitting or fancy ASM gfx. Not everybody has the ability to make sprites, make music, or gfx (classic or fancy), and anybody that can will probably base it off of something Nintendo has already done, like the recent trend with copying NSMB gfx stuff, this includes Wii and Wii U stuff (which I have done, I'm no exception).

For some reason, when I look at this thread, it almost makes SMW hacking seem more like a job to please everyone around who wants to play a hack instead of just doing it for fun, which is why some things always get canceled because of the stress that comes with trying to make a perfect hack when in truth, you can't create ANYTHING perfect. There will always be mistakes and things you don't like, pet peeves and things that will absolutely frustrate you.

Long fucking levels, item babysitting, overused music, oh my gosh, the list can go on and on. Porting music is hard, making a custom soundtrack is even harder, and I haven't even tried, but I've talked to people who can and trust me, they say composing for SMW is pretty damn difficult, especially with today's standards. I don't think anyone can just PM a good musician and ask "Hey, can you help me make a custom soundtrack", you can't, I haven't tried because I have no idea what is used and what is overused, I don't play hacks at all except for a very select few.

With the hundreds of resources on the site, the ideas are still limited, and they are going to get even worse. I understand the point of this thread, it is supposed to give a hint to hackers of what not to do in your hack if you wish to appeal to the public, but for me, who has done this for four years now, almost five, it actually discourages me from trying to continue. I'm almost always afraid of downloading and using a pre-coded boss because I think someone has used this elsewhere, and if that is the case, MANY have.

This is a boss we are talking about, not a clever sprite. Do you know how hard it is to try to take a pre-coded boss and try to make a clever arena just to make the fight appealing? It wracks my fucking brain so bad that just close Lunar Magic after getting so frustrated for wasting an hour of my time designing and redesigning something just because the boss was coded to be used in a square room.

So, I use the noob boss to try to give atleast SOME form of originality, but THEN people everywhere are hating on the damn thing because it is the ONLY customizable boss I could find anywhere.

Then there is the music, look anywhere on the music page and check how many times it has been downloaded. I can guarantee if the music sounds decent, about 60% of it is being used in a lot of different hacks, and if you play 'em, be prepared to hear it a lot. Take the DKC (1-3) songs for example, they are good songs from a good game and decently ported. You better bet if anyone likes the games, they want to use the songs, and there seems to be a good bit of DKC fans on the site (I'm one myself #w{=D}).

I don't really get irritated with stuff if I do play a hack, I try looking at it with a constructive mind, and if I think it could be better, I'll offer my opinion, if I think something could be changed, I'll suggest them to use "this" or "that", not just "change the damn music, it doesn't fit and I've heard it everywhere." for this reason or that reason, not just because I don't like it, because someone else may like that better instead. (wow, that's hard to understand, even for me.)

Wow, what am I trying to get at, I think I got into a bit of a ramble...

Okay, I think it was this...

I thought the point of this thread was to help point smw hackers in a positive direction, and to give people the opportunity to discuss things that are just absolutely horrible in smw hacking, like don't make it to where you have to jump down a hole with no indication, no blind jumps, instead, I'm seeing things like

"I don't like scrolling levels"
"I don't like this music because I've heard it EVERYWHERE!"
"Don't use this boss, it is fucking overused"

Well damn, limit my creativity don't ya? If I'm gonna make a hack, I want people to play the damn thing and enjoy it, but i want to enjoy making it too, not make it feel like a freaking job instead of an enjoyable hobby. (I'm really bitching aren't I?)

I'm not meaning to insult or point out any certain people or anything, but this thread does discourage me from hacking at points in time, and many will say to just not read the thread or "fuck off". Alright fine... I'll try, but as an active modder of SMW, one of my most favorite games of all time, I can't help but look to see if I can find something I must avoid, to see if there is anything constructive, but only so few have them.

Now, I'm sure by this time, you are going to ask, "Alright mister smarty pants, if you are so wise (trust me, I'm not that wise, but I can say I have experience, go to my profile and see how long I've been here), what would be your example of a constructive comment as to make a hacker say: He's got good points. Instead of not using the slow scrolling speed because it makes the level un interesting and boring, how about I take this guy's suggestion and make it interesting; kind of deal. Well here's what I'd try to say...

"One of my pet peeves is scrolling levels because it forces the player to go at a set pace through the level. I don't like 'em at all, but if somebody could make the gimmick interesting by maybe adding some small and simple puzzles, like instead littering the level with jumpable enemies and a bunch of random jumps, lets give some sprite that will shoot a projectile and you have to dodge that while it is on screen, or maybe have some blocks you have to punch through before the screen kills you, and don't make the punching section too long either."

Hmm, might be a poor example... How about this.

"I don't like puzzles where you have to carry items around, or item babysit the whole level. But, instead of making a whole big level around item baby sitting, I'd enjoy it if there were a series of multiple small puzzles that involved carrying one item to another area a couple of screens back to get something else to carry back and pass through, or something like that."

Let's face it, when it comes to puzzles, you are very limited with what you can do in SMW unless one thinks outside the box and uses custom blocks and custom/original sprites in ways not seen before, which can be kind of hard. I imagine by now people have made puzzles where you have carry a spring board to get to a heightened area where a shooter of bob-ombs are where you can one and blow up bricks not far from where you must go to progress are, I've done this already (badly though, I need to go and fix that...)

I know I'm going to end up regretting post this in one way or another, but that is my honest opinion. In no way do I mean this to be a flame or an insult to anyone at all. Until more resources are getting released instead of just custom music and tools these days, I believe we are going to have to just get used to seeing the same material unless somebody wants to spend hours learning how to code sprites. Hacking SMW isn't going to get you or help you get a job in game design, it is just a good hobby I find entertaining.

Man, with that out of the way, I guess I'll bid a good day. Hopefully this thread will maybe evolve from just spouting things you don't like in SMW hacking to giving ways around those pet peeves. If it is hard for you to think of a way, imagine how hard it is for a hacker to try and think of something original. As a SMW hacker, I aim to please everyone I can, I know it is impossible, but I atleast aim for it because I like to see people smile #w{=)}, and not so -sad-...#w{=(}

This is just my opinion, I don't wish to force it on anyone and no one has to even comply to a thing I say, hell, it may just totally be ignored. We all have different opinions on things, that's a fact in of itself. This is an awesome community, but when I come to this thread, it does make me sad, and I think some others may feel that way. No, I mean it, I feel really sad, I don't know EXACTLY why I do, but I do... Oh well, I feel much better just posting my thoughts on this.

I just want to stress this is not anyway meant to hurt anyone. So... um, there! Stressed!

--------------------
Your layout has been removed.
When the level decides to make spin jumping on torpedo teds necessary

Any water level

Default boss fights (they're way too easy)
Overused SMW sprites/music, etc. I mean, there's a huge amount of stuff in this site and people have to use the same thing others use. Can't people have their own desicion on using other songs that exist?
1- Thwomp bosses + noob bosses.

It's the same thing over and over and over..

2- Long levels.

3- Water levels. (If they aren't any interesting..)
Originally posted by SomeRandomHacker
1- Thwomp bosses + noob bosses.

It's the same thing over and over and over..

2- Long levels.

3- Water levels. (If they aren't any interesting..)


I realized that the reason water levels tend to be boring is because of Mario's slow horizontal movement. But what if it was a vertical level? That would certainly add an interesting twist to it. It would make it more fun because it would be more fast paced.

--------------------
don't click this link...
Originally posted by metalgearhunter
THE MOST AMAZING AND BEAUTIFUL RANT ANYWHERE <3





You're AMAZING. You've said what I'm thinking! <3

Okay, pretty much this.

If I'm gonna use something in my hack like long water levels, item babysitting, "overused music/bosses" then I'm gonna use it. Like MGH said, this is a HOBBY and not a JOB. If y'all don't like it you don't have to play it. Simple. :)

Okay sure, I want people to play my hack. But I also want to have fun MAKING it. This is a thread about KILLJOYS... stuff that just KILLS it for you... and seeing someone go "I hate X, Y or Z" kinda kills it for me, a novice hacker. Those are all the tricks I've got. I'm gonna use 'em. ;)

Is something I'm doing TECHNICALLY wrong? Is there cutoff? n00ish mistakes? By all means, tell me! But only whining about stuff EVERYONE DOES (because not everyone is an ASM master and NO! It's NOT easy to someone who barely knows how to use a computer!) isn't gonna make me change it. ;)

--------------------


Voice actor. Composer. Musician.


.





Having played about... 5 or 6 total hacks in my total 7 or 8 years of being a part of SMW Central, and making numerous one-world hacks I'd inevitably give up on because they didn't feel fun, I've stumbled upon many small, sometimes seemingly insignificant flaws in hacks that can ruin a game's feel. It's important to be VERY introspective when designing every aspect of a hack in my opinion, if you want a solid end result. I rarely did this when designing hacks up until a few months back, and they had terrible game feel- resembling a perhaps a 2/5 or 3/5 hack rather than its own standalone game.

Some of the things I most hate in hacks:

Maneuvering through tightly confined spaces

This was a big problem for me. I usually did it out of laziness and feeling the need to fill more screens in levels with tunnels ways perhaps 3 or 4 blocks tall and perhaps small enemies along the way. While this does fill up more screens in a hack and add to a lengthier gameplay, it also leads to a more boring and perhaps frustrating gameplay too. Mario is designed to maneuver around wide open spaces, it's very restricting to take this away from the player, which is likely why it was rarely done in the original game Super Mario World, with the exception of Ludwig's Castle, and you probably won't see it often in any of considered-to-be best hacks on this site.

Inconsistent Graphic Styles

It may be a personal annoyance of mine but it's something I find to be incredibly important to a game's feel. When you go from one level to the next and they had wildly inconsistent graphical styles between them it really, again, ruins the feel of the game. Makes it feel like more of a hack than an actual solid game. Going from one level with for example, Donkey Kong Country style graphics, and then transferring into another with perhaps, Yoshi's Island style graphics. It just breaks the illusion of a solid game. It's why I draw all my own graphics, which hopefully I'll get the motivation to release to the site pretty soon.

Waiting on Enemies to progress

I think this was already covered a little earlier in this thread, but it definitely contributes to having a bad hack experience- having a small passage or a pipe blocked by a pokey or anything of that nature. It's not fun.

Unfitting/Poor Quality Music

This is a big one I see a lot. When a hacker uses a track for a level and it feels like it's picked not because it fits the level but more likely because the hacker simply likes the tracks, regardless of whether or not it really suits the level.

This in conjunction with poor quality music, such as music with poor instrument choice (such as the horrifying distorted guitar sample) or bad volume levels or anything of that nature. I don't think it's particularly difficult to port music. It's just something you have to work at and you just have to listen and ask yourself what sounds good. If something sounds bad in a port, fix it, and although, it can help if used right, it doesn't need to be filled with ADSR commands or anything like that to sound good.

TLDR; Make it feel like an actual game, not just a hack!

Most everything else that would be on my list I think has already been covered in this thread.

Water Levels: Rarely done in a way that feels fun. (Use Sparingly)
Carrying an item throughout the level: Not fun, often employs the use of a "reset pipe" in case you mess up, which for whatever reason I also don't really enjoy using.
Incredibly Difficult Levels: Never have enjoyed the thought of save-states being necessary to complete a level. I recommend avoiding this type of level design unless you're simply designing a hack that revolves around the gimmick of insane difficulty, otherwise, it's not fun.
Poor Palette Choice: Palettes can very subtly make or break the experience of a game. Be careful with them.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, you guys should know. Value it as you'd like, it's by no means the only standard for making a hack, many hacks have qualities from my list, but still can turn out to be enjoyable in their own regard.

--------------------
How To Design a Good Overworld
Originally posted by Dragonfly

If I'm gonna use something in my hack like long water levels, item babysitting, "overused music/bosses" then I'm gonna use it. Like MGH said, this is a HOBBY and not a JOB. If y'all don't like it you don't have to play it. Simple. :)


^Having this exact mindset is pretty much why I'm able to keep hacking without it becoming a chore or stressful. Not saying that I completely ignore the standers of the community but they are for the most part very subjective.

(Also when did this thread become about what you hate? I thought it was about kill joys.)

--------------------
My Youtube Channel for Hacking and Gaming.
Originally posted by EvilGuy0613
when did this thread become about what you hate? I thought it was about kill joys.



I couldn't agree more.

--------------------


Voice actor. Composer. Musician.


.





Originally posted by Dragonfly
Originally posted by EvilGuy0613
when did this thread become about what you hate? I thought it was about kill joys.



I couldn't agree more.


Im almost certain that killjoys you have encountered and discussing is synonymous with what you hate, honestly, if you didn't figure it out already.

Now then, my personal killjoys when it comes to playing SMW hacks are: Unfitting music, flat, uninteresting level design, levels that blithely passed off by the creators that really is unfair level designed as challenging that with enough skill a player can overcome which needs to be criticized, to name a few.

--------------------
On Pixel Art Requests: I generally do not accept work unless I either have the time, if I see your project worth my time to contribute towards, and that is usually me doing the approaching to you on that.
-I also do not accept speculative work as I do have various art I made on-hand with me.
-I am more receptive to equivalent exchange of resources in which case, you can DM me wherever I have an active presence on for the details.
-Other times I'm availible for your project is C3 request threads I may run.




Need to fly levels

THIS!

The Red Switch Palace in Super Mario Omega, I have no idea how much I savestated at that level. Basically this really ruins the fun in the game, because if you DON'T have a cape you are basically screwed or if you don't use savestates you actually get FORCED to use savestates unless you have a LOT of luck/skill :).

Bad auto-scroll levels

Basically every hack I played had a level like this. Again picking Super Mario Omega(I love this hack, no offence it is one of my favorites), Mossy Caverns #??? was so freaking unfair. It just goes to fast and the worst thing is that you need PERFECT timing to get to the pipe for the secret exit. Thank god for the secret quick route to finish the level. Again if you play without savestates, this level FORCES you to use it! Really a killjoy.

...and last, but not least:

Unfair secrets

Secrets should be hard to find we all know that, but not UNFAIR HARD. Besides that give us hints/clues/not too difficult to see tiles that lead us to it! Don't just make us walk all around the level and randomly encounter something!

The best example is from the original Super Mario World. I think it was Bowser's Valley 2, the level where you had to fly over the level to get to the key that leads to the Valley Fortress. How am I supposed to know how to find that? Another good example is Bowser Rampages Again, which is also one of my favorite hacks. In the Ninth Cave, you can go through a wall at the end of an exit pipe. My question is...HOW?!?!??! AM!?!?!? I!?!?! SUPPOSED TO FREAKING KNOW THAT?!?!??!

When I begin to play a hack I wanna go all out and finish it 100%. At a certain point I become desperate to find every exit, which kills the fun for me and that just sucks.

Glad that is out :D
Linear overworlds.

If I don't have a choice on how to progress through the game, then I tend to get bored.
Originally posted by Komutan
Need to fly levels

THIS!

The Red Switch Palace in Super Mario Omega, I have no idea how much I savestated at that level. Basically this really ruins the fun in the game, because if you DON'T have a cape you are basically screwed or if you don't use savestates you actually get FORCED to use savestates unless you have a LOT of luck/skill :).

Bad auto-scroll levels

Basically every hack I played had a level like this. Again picking Super Mario Omega(I love this hack, no offence it is one of my favorites), Mossy Caverns #??? was so freaking unfair. It just goes to fast and the worst thing is that you need PERFECT timing to get to the pipe for the secret exit. Thank god for the secret quick route to finish the level. Again if you play without savestates, this level FORCES you to use it! Really a killjoy.

...and last, but not least:

Unfair secrets

Secrets should be hard to find we all know that, but not UNFAIR HARD. Besides that give us hints/clues/not too difficult to see tiles that lead us to it! Don't just make us walk all around the level and randomly encounter something!

The best example is from the original Super Mario World. I think it was Bowser's Valley 2, the level where you had to fly over the level to get to the key that leads to the Valley Fortress. How am I supposed to know how to find that? Another good example is Bowser Rampages Again, which is also one of my favorite hacks. In the Ninth Cave, you can go through a wall at the end of an exit pipe. My question is...HOW?!?!??! AM!?!?!? I!?!?! SUPPOSED TO FREAKING KNOW THAT?!?!??!

When I begin to play a hack I wanna go all out and finish it 100%. At a certain point I become desperate to find every exit, which kills the fun for me and that just sucks.

Glad that is out :D


In Bowser's Valley 2, you didn't have to fly over it. A simple jump would get you on top of the ceiling. And its not that unfairly hidden, given that SMB1 made you cross the ceiling to get to the first warp zone. If anything, it is a throwback to that. And the reward is pretty good, given that you go to the back door, which skips most of Bowser's Castle.

But I do hate secrets that are more luck-based than intuition-based. I don't want to be jumping around looking for an invisible door unless there is a clue to its location.

--------------------
don't click this link...
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 » Link
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - Killjoys in SMW Hacks?

The purpose of this site is not to distribute copyrighted material, but to honor one of our favourite games.

Copyright © 2005 - 2022 - SMW Central
Legal Information - Privacy Policy - Link To Us


Menu

Follow Us On

  • YouTube
  • Twitch
  • Twitter

Affiliates

  • Super Mario Bros. X Community
  • ROMhacking.net
  • Mario Fan Games Galaxy
  • sm64romhacks