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Should Mario be able to spin jump on spikey enemies?
Forum Index - SMW Hacking - SMW Hacking Discussion - Should Mario be able to spin jump on spikey enemies?
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Do any of you have an opinion on Mario's ability to spinjump safely on enemies that would otherwise hurt him (e.g. Piranha Plants, Spike Tops, etc.)? I've noticed that most hackers seem to use this as a standard move and require the player to spin jump on enemies to cross gaps or reach items. While I am as guilty as anyone of abusing this ability when I play hacks (or the original game, at that), it really just seems to feel cheap. Not only is it illogical that Mario will be safe spin jumping an enemy while a normal jump hurts him, but it also breaks the challenge presented by these hazards. In my hack, I have decided to correct this oversight on the part of the programmers; from now on, anybody who tries to spin jump on Spiny, Thwomp, or whatever in my hack will get hurt or die.

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I don't have a problem with it. While it does seem broken (and in easier levels, it most certainly is), a good level designer will see the opportunity in such a move and will shift his design to take advantage of it. You can require spin jumps, you can deter them with a variety of obstacles (the most basic being a spiky ceiling), you can present the player an entirely new challenge with a different set of obstacles due to the height gained from spin bouncing off of an enemy or by forcing an item carry... Your imagination is the limit!
Originally posted by Mineyl
I don't have a problem with it. While it does seem broken (and in easier levels, it most certainly is), a good level designer will see the opportunity in such a move and will shift his design to take advantage of it. You can require spin jumps, you can deter them with a variety of obstacles (the most basic being a spiky ceiling), you can present the player an entirely new challenge with a different set of obstacles due to the height gained from spin bouncing off of an enemy or by forcing an item carry... Your imagination is the limit!

Something that I inadvertently set up in one of my levels is that players would almost certainly Spin Jump off of a Thwimp to get better jump height, but the Thwimp could squish Mario against the ceiling, making it suicidal.

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Yes, it still has some difficulty even if it is "broken". First of all, spin-jumping on different enemies will of course depend how the size of the enemy so it would be a mistake to say that is it completely "broken" for that area. Secondly, I could also find easy ways of breaking it even if spin-jumping on them would hurt the player (example: carrying shell then dropping it every time I see an enemy or just simply jumping over it though both depend on the circumstances present at the time).
I don't spin jump on enemies at all. Like you said, it does feel cheap.
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Originally posted by Alcaro
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If the level is rather unfair and hard without spinjumps, then I use them. Generally though, I try to avoid it.
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I reflexively spin-jump probably more than I real-jump.

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I spin jump on enemies to progress without getting hurt. I try to avoid breaking levels until a part is unfair or annoying. Some hacks require spin jumping for advantage.

Some enemies are easy to sping jump, but... while bouncing on them, you can still get hurt. Jumping, bouncing, etc. enemies (Thwomps, Thwimps, as an example) can still hurt you if they jump while you fall on it very close to it. You can still make obstacles that may give a challenge even if you have to spin jump on an enemy to take progress. A spiky ceiling, some ball and chains or moving ground may work.

This really depend on the players' design, but it's also good to avoid abusing it too much in a single level.
Spinning in the air makes anyone's feet indestructable, durr!
I like your idea, Proto. I just hope you warn the player which I'm sure you would.

Also, I really don't have any issues with spinjumping nor did I even have the thought in my head of it being some no-no among players. If an author finds spinjumping to be so taboo, he/she should have disabled it. Whenever I play a game, I'll use whatever ability the player is given. If some people find it cheap, then why the hell is the ability even available in the first place?
If an author doesn't disable it and feels that it "breaks" their level design, then you did a shitty job designing your levels and need to throw your hack back in the oven cause it's not done.

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Spinjumping is a really neat idea in theory but it also makes a lot of enemies too easy to deal with.

What I would have done if I were designing SMW from the ground up is make some enemies killable, some enemies bounceable like how the spin jump is, and some enemies will always hurt you.

Basically keep doing what you're doing.
Most hacks are designed with this factoid in mind - more so than the actual base game! With that in mind, without spin-jumping, some situations would be harder than they actually should be. Conversely, it doesn't entirely make the enemies pointless. Even if you can spin-jump to avoid getting hurt, they will still be around, and with some good design, you may still be forced to deal with that enemy for a little longer than just the time for one spin jump.

So this effect of the spin jump isn't necessarily good, nor necessarily bad. It all depends on how well the author designed his hack with this in mind, same has to be said for any common knowledge that is present or absent.
Spin Jump is kinda wierd. Just because you jump spinning you're able to jump on spiked enemies. But it's tradition. If your hack doesn't have spin jump, its level design canNOT use a lot of spiked enemies. And also, if you don't have spin-jump on your hack, I'd recommend you implement more gimmicks such as new powerups or a different move (unless you're making something SMB like. I don't like the first SMB btw).
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I think spin jumping off of spiky enemies is a good thing because it opens the floodgates for more level design freedom. I also like the spin jump because I find it easier to do tight jumps with. I personally use regular jumping more because I usually need the distance more than I need the security.
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Yes, he should. I would be pretty tilted to lose health if I spin-jumped on a Pokey or some simple sprite with a spike on. The extra height you get could be used to create some neat puzzles or make the level a bit more interesting. If it makes the level easy then it means your level design was poor overall.
I personally dislike it, if only because it tends to lead designers on to a slippery slope of mechanic abuse in the long run. It might just start with bouncing off a Pokey to reach that Yoshi Coin, but it can eventually lead to spinhopping off of enemies or objects with awkward movement, such as Ball-n-Chains, or riding a really slow enemy like a Spike Top over a field of clapper plants. These are not fun, and are probably some of my least favorite things to see in hacks after spamming clappers.

Unless you're limiting yourself to Vanilla resources, you could just simply insert a rideable sprite (such as the SMB2 Shy Guy) or something that doesn't die when you do a normal jump off of it. You still achieve the same result as a spin-jumpable enemy without all of the annoyances associated with using them to accomplish a platforming feat.

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Originally posted by Arctic Avenger
Spin Jump is kinda wierd. Just because you jump spinning you're able to jump on spiked enemies. But it's tradition. If your hack doesn't have spin jump, its level design canNOT use a lot of spiked enemies. And also, if you don't have spin-jump on your hack, I'd recommend you implement more gimmicks such as new powerups or a different move (unless you're making something SMB like. I don't like the first SMB btw).


I still have the spin jump in the hack, but I used SMW Customizer to disable spin-jumping on enemies like Pokeys, Boos, Thwomps, etc. The player will get hurt if they try to spin jump on any of those enemies in my hack.

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I just want to say that using enemies as the only way of progressing, spin-jumping on them that is, is not good game design. Enemies should be an obstruction on your path that you either need to avoid or kill to progress. The spin-jump physics in SMW were intentionally made floatier (and less high) than the normal jump because it's more powerful on enemies. Enemies are usually a too small platform to bounce off of too. If you really want to have moving platforms you're better off using the moving castle block sprites, since they have a larger area to land on, or the boo blocks, since you don't have to spin-jump on them and you can make them stationary (they even designed the enemy to indicate that it's going to start moving and hurt you again). If you really want to challenge the challenge the player with platforming segments, do so by using platforms. In Mario, enemies are there to obstruct your path, not for allowing you to progress the game.

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Originally posted by Torchkas
I just want to say that using enemies as the only way of progressing, spin-jumping on them that is, is not good game design. Enemies should be an obstruction on your path that you either need to avoid or kill to progress. The spin-jump physics in SMW were intentionally made floatier (and less high) than the normal jump because it's more powerful on enemies. Enemies are usually a too small platform to bounce off of too. If you really want to have moving platforms you're better off using the moving castle block sprites, since they have a larger area to land on, or the boo blocks, since you don't have to spin-jump on them and you can make them stationary (they even designed the enemy to indicate that it's going to start moving and hurt you again). If you really want to challenge the challenge the player with platforming segments, do so by using platforms. In Mario, enemies are there to obstruct your path, not for allowing you to progress the game.

Although, admittedly, bouncing across Winged Koopas is a way to add a Sonic flavor to a hack.

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I really need a layout. :<
Enemies that you have to jump on with a normal jump to progress isn't bad because you have much more control over it. Mario has less drag with normal jumps and he can jump higher. I would still say you only really want to have large normal jump enemy streaks for bonuses (a la DKC) and not to progress the normal game. One or two flying koopas you have to jump on to progress are actually a good challenge though.

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But that defeats the whole purpose of spin jumping! If you got hurt from spin jumping, that would make it useless. What if you just disabled spin jumping instead?
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