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Level 130 (World 8) - Amethyst Vein [Ported to actual base ROM, custom graphics applied (excluding BG)]
Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - SMW Central Production 1.5 - Level 130 (World 8) - Amethyst Vein [Ported to actual base ROM, custom graphics applied (excluding BG)]
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Amethyst Vein 2.6 IPS

Things to note:

- Exanimation applied to the lanterns. I decided against adding sparkles to the amethysts, but if people urge me, I will do it.
- Reinstated red and blue switch palace blocks in most of their old locations. The level now uses all four colors in some fashion.

This will in all likelihood be the final demo of the level before I add the background and submit it.

As for music, I've narrowed it down to these choices, in order from most preferred to least preferred:

Ambience
Fear Factory
Rush Job
Cavern Caprice
Absolute Claustrophobia

Enjoy!

Previous version(s):

Amethyst Vein 2.5 IPS
Amethyst Vein 2.4 IPS
Amethyst Vein 2.3 IPS
Amethyst Vein 2.2 IPS
Amethyst Vein 2.1 IPS
Amethyst Vein 2.0 IPS

---

So since I'm like, the original author of this level and all, I thought I'd whip up a thread to post my ramblings and progress in instead of cluttering up others like the discussion sticky.

Quote
I'm making this post as a declaration of intent for one of my two levels in the hack, Amethyst Vein. I realize that the offenses this level commits are minor, but I still feel the need to go back and address the flaws that it has. I'll outline them here. All pictures are hyperlinks to avoid table stretching.

Old Amethyst Vein Picture #1

Yeah, the graphic swaps were ugly, so I'm using -the- base ROM from 2009. :P

It should be pretty clear what is going on here, gameplay-wise: collect the p-switch, hit it, and make a mad dash backwards, upwards, over and around through the brown used blocks before it runs out. The problem here is if the player activates the switch to the left of the invisible question blocks, they'll have a hard if not outright impossible time trying to get back to the right of them. I want to make this section flow better and not discriminate against those expecting to have to drag the switch with them like in a lot of earlier levels.

Old Amethyst Vein Picture #2

This is the secret exit "puzzle." It was made convoluted on purpose because the level it unlocks was originally supposed to be required for something special, but that "something special" was never implemented, so this exit just ended up being a little overboard in requirements (needs the green and red switches and a cape). I'll either eliminate most of the requirements here or redesign it so that it has a better, less-breakable flow.

Old Amethyst Vein Picture #3

The first p-balloon section, and it comes right after the midpoint. I'm mostly satisfied with it, but when I made it, I didn't expect only one or two other levels to also use p-balloons (and I believe both are endgame, at that), so the player could very well get all the way here to world 8 and just now be seeing p-balloons for the first time, so I want to tone this section down. Also, the third reset pipe is a little unnecessary, so it's getting the boot.

Old Amethyst Vein Picture #4

The middle chunk of the second p-balloon section. The player shouldn't need reset pipes now that they know what to expect, so I'll likely eliminate most of them. The requirement to fly downward with the p-balloon about halfway through this picture is annoyingly tedious with little actual difficulty, so I'll raise the second half of this image to the top of the level to keep the player from having to endure that. Also, the final p-balloon is extraordinarily hard to grab while Super Mario without abusing L-scrolling, so that'll get adjusted.

Other things I want to do to the level:

- Relocate the midpoint to after the first p-balloon section. Having to endure both of these sections in one go is asking a little much.
- Remove a power-up or two. There are EIGHT power-ups, not including the one that is accessed by the midpoint entrance.
- Possibly cut down on lava lotus spam by putting them in more meaningful spots that are more complemented by the level design.
- Custom graphics...eventually.
- Replace a lot of bottomless pits with lava to keep the player from flying underneath things.

So yeah. If you want a refresher on how the level flows, check out the video I made of it. Bear in mind that I was extremely good at the level then from obsessive beta testing, so it's harder than it looks.
The official version of the level, played by a cow of Rao

Anyway, You can't say this level isn't designed well, because for the most part it is. The only issue I feel like bringing up is how there isn't a good flow between getting P-balloons. They should be placed in a way you can easily grab them while inflated and continue on.

Also, the original music you have in your video is better than the SMWCP version :>>>>>>>>>>>>

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
All right, I've addressed most of the things I pointed out in my original post. Once again, hyperlinks to avoid table stretching. Also, try to ignore the fact that almost everything is made out of cement blocks at the moment. They'll eventually be replaced by new custom graphics and it'll look really nice, but until then, this lets me edit things easily.

Also, I forgot to swap in sprites to show what's in the blocks, but it should be fairly obvious based on the old version's pictures.

Alpha Amethyst Vein Picture #1

I didn't change as much in this section as I thought I would. As you can see, it's now pretty easy to get back over to the relevant side of the invisible question blocks should you activate the switch toward the left, and there's even a p-switch coin arrow further conveying that you need to get yourself over there. :P

Alpha Amethyst Vein Picture #2

The redesigned secret exit. Now it should be impossible to break it with a cape. The red switch palace requirement is gone, and the sequence no longer involves using a silver p-switch. The key will be placed in the secret exit's room, instead.

Alpha Amethyst Vein Picture #3

The first p-balloon section is born anew! It's a little longer than the original, but it's much easier to navigate. Also, the muncher spam was significantly toned down. On the flipside, it's a little harder to grab the dragon coin now, but it shouldn't deter those determined to collect them all.

Also, the midpoint was moved to the top of this section, as you can see. Now I don't have to feel as bad about leaving the difficulty of the second p-balloon section mostly intact.


Man, I forgot how much he hated Creepy Dark Woods. I wish my level didn't share a video with it... :\

Originally posted by TLMB
Anyway, You can't say this level isn't designed well, because for the most part it is. The only issue I feel like bringing up is how there isn't a good flow between getting P-balloons. They should be placed in a way you can easily grab them while inflated and continue on.

Thank you! Also, I've taken care of that little flow problem here and the second p-balloon can easily be grabbed before the first one runs out.

Originally posted by TLMB
Also, the original music you have in your video is better than the SMWCP version :>>>>>>>>>>>>

It was my "dream song" for this level, but I was so unknown back then that I didn't think anyone would port such a long song specifically for my level. I'm gonna' make it a point to get rid of the Cirno music, though.
I know you can't kill standing ninjis while in a lakitu cloud, but is it possible as balloon Mario? Either way, looks good so far.

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Originally posted by AxemJinx
I know you can't kill standing ninjis while in a lakitu cloud, but is it possible as balloon Mario? Either way, looks good so far.


It is possible.
All right, I finally finished revamping the level design. Here's the revised second p-balloon section:

Alpha Amethyst Vein Picture #4

It was made both easier and more difficult at once. Since the midpoint is now directly before this section, it's not as punishing if you end up dying a few times here. The dragon coin is harder to get, one of the p-balloons was removed (the ? block the Chuck is on contains a coin, FYI, and it's just to allow you to get rid of him), and the final p-balloon is now easier to get while being set up in almost the exact same way it was before.

And now that that's out of the way, I thought I'd provide an IPS file! Gasp!

Amethyst Vein 2.0 IPS

A few things to keep in mind when you play this:

- Yes, the music will be replaced.
- No, the concrete blocks aren't permanent. That would be silly.
- There's a door at the beginning that lets you skip to the midpoint for convenience's sake.
- If you want to try to get the secret exit, I filled in the green switch blocks in this version.
- Also, I accidentally left in a few glitched blocks. Just hop over them. They were supposed to be red switch tiles, but I'll make them yellow or green.

Have fun! Let me know if it plays well!
You've definitely done a nice job of improving it. I have a couple of things to point out (and then I'll let someone like AxemJinx go into a bit more depth):


Does this ledge near the start have a point? I looked around for a hidden 1-UP but couldn't find one.


This part is surprisingly frustrating. If you don't get the balloon right away, the Pitchin' Chuck screws you over.


I'd replace the Puntin' Chuck with some Ninjis or something. This part seems really cramped as it is.
Originally posted by S.N.N.
Does this ledge near the start have a point? I looked around for a hidden 1-UP but couldn't find one.

Oh whoops. I forgot to mention that I haven't placed the coins in the level quite yet just in case I need to swap things around. In the original, there's a small cache of coins on that ledge, and that's my intention for the revamp, as well.

Originally posted by S.N.N.
This part is surprisingly frustrating. If you don't get the balloon right away, the Pitchin' Chuck screws you over.

And to think that it used to be even harder! I'll see about changing it.

Originally posted by S.N.N.
I'd replace the Puntin' Chuck with some Ninjis or something. This part seems really cramped as it is.

It is pretty cramped... I was trying to turn the Chuck into a unique obstacle with the slopes, but the footballs bounce around a bit too erratically. I'll either put in ninjis as you suggest or redesign this spot to complement the Puntin' Chuck without being so cramped up.

Thanks for the feedback! I'll see about placing some coins in 2.1 so that sort of weird bereftness won't be present.
I agree with S.N.N.'s points, and have a few more to add, mostly minor.

--With the midpoint moved to the end of the first p-balloon section, it now feels like a pretty long time before you get it. I wonder if you should use the same alternating structure that Water-Logged Woods does- that is, platforming -> p-balloon -> platforming -> p-balloon -> goal- and then put the midpoint back in the middle.
--Getting the first yoshi coin in the first p-balloon section, I think it's easy to fly too high and then get trapped by the baseballs and lotus fireballs.
--The projectiles for the last pitchin' chuck and lotus plant in the first p-balloon section don't always spawn.
--There are a few spots where a pitchin' chuck has the high ground or an advantageous position, and I feel like the only safe strategy is to wait it out. This isn't an issue necessarily, just something that affects the level's pacing. The hardest one to deal with might be the one after the turn block bridges, but there is another platform lower down if you fall, so I guess it's fine.
--Since you provide reset pipes for the p-balloons, would it make sense to provide one for the p-switch as well? Also, do you have any interest in using the p-switch outline FPZero mentioned, or is that too blatant in this case (it might very well be)?

But yeah, I don't really see anything wrong with this stage- if it needs anything, it's just tweaking in response to player feedback. The only thing that concerns me is the midpoint placement, but maybe I'm overthinking it.

(Parts of the level remind me of Ninji-tsu Crew from RttC, actually.)


Edit: Forgot something minor.

--The volcano lotus after the cape block is a little tricky to spinbounce on with the cape, because the ceiling above it is kind of low and the target platform ahead is higher up. Not a huge deal; just felt it was worth mentioning.

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Originally posted by AxemJinx
--With the midpoint moved to the end of the first p-balloon section, it now feels like a pretty long time before you get it. I wonder if you should use the same alternating structure that Water-Logged Woods does- that is, platforming -> p-balloon -> platforming -> p-balloon -> goal- and then put the midpoint back in the middle.

Hmm...well, it is a pretty long level. I'll have to think about this more. But isn't platforming -> p-balloon -> midpoint how it already is?

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--Getting the first yoshi coin in the first p-balloon section, I think it's easy to fly too high and then get trapped by the baseballs and lotus fireballs.
--The projectiles for the last pitchin' chuck and lotus plant in the first p-balloon section don't always spawn.

I'll see about fixing these. I'll probably alter the level structure a bit around the dragon coin and take out one of the ninjis where the projectiles aren't spawning.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--There are a few spots where a pitchin' chuck has the high ground or an advantageous position, and I feel like the only safe strategy is to wait it out. This isn't an issue necessarily, just something that affects the level's pacing. The hardest one to deal with might be the one after the turn block bridges, but there is another platform lower down if you fall, so I guess it's fine.

This is actually deliberate. I've provided the player with the tool to reach the secret exit above the Pitchin' Chuck you mention here without having them bring a feather from another level. I could ease it up a little if you insist, though!

Originally posted by AxemJinx
--Since you provide reset pipes for the p-balloons, would it make sense to provide one for the p-switch as well? Also, do you have any interest in using the p-switch outline FPZero mentioned, or is that too blatant in this case (it might very well be)?

Ah, I think both cases are a little blatant. One of the main reasons I provide reset pipes for the p-balloons is because they can get away from you pretty easily if you're not expecting one to pop out. I feel if the player messes up the p-switch at the beginning, it's more on them, and the iteration time to try again is low enough. Again, I'll change it if you insist.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
But yeah, I don't really see anything wrong with this stage- if it needs anything, it's just tweaking in response to player feedback. The only thing that concerns me is the midpoint placement, but maybe I'm overthinking it.

No problem! I really appreciate your feedback! :)

Originally posted by AxemJinx
(Parts of the level remind me of Ninji-tsu Crew from RttC, actually.)

Plot twist: Ninji-tsu Crew directly inspired this level.
Originally posted by Mineyl
Hmm...well, it is a pretty long level. I'll have to think about this more. But isn't platforming -> p-balloon -> midpoint how it already is?

Well, what I meant was taking the second half of the platforming section and relocating it to between the two p-balloon sections. I'm not sure that's the ideal solution either, though. There's also the possibility of multiple midpoints, but that might make them too frequent. I'm not trying to force a particular "solution," though; I just thought this was worth bringing up.

Originally posted by Mineyl
I could ease it up a little if you insist, though!

Originally posted by Mineyl
Again, I'll change it if you insist.

I actually just wanted to hear your take on those things and make sure you were aware of them. I suspected those were the reasons, and I don't think you need to change them.

Originally posted by Mineyl
Plot twist: Ninji-tsu Crew directly inspired this level.

Ninji-tsu Crew, you've been replaced! :b

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Amethyst Vein 2.1 IPS

Changes made in this version in no particular order:

- Coins reintroduced to the level, making the second Pitchin' Chuck easier to deal with if you're fast enough to get up there.
- An extra 1up was placed in the second half of the level.
- A Pitchin' Chuck conflicting with Lava Lotus in the first p-balloon section was replaced with a ninji.
- The third dragon coin is less risky to get: the Pitchin' Chuck to the right of it was moved one tile to the right and the ceiling was lowered to prevent faking the player out and having them continue upward.
- Glitched red switch blocks in the first half were replaced with yellow and green switch blocks.
- The second power-up in the second half of the level was replaced with a cape feather as a reward for players who make it through the p-balloon section as Super/Fire/Cape Mario.
- The final Puntin' Chuck of the final p-balloon section was moved around, as were the Pitchin' and Puntin' Chucks guarding the final p-balloon.

As always, please enjoy!

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Well, what I meant was taking the second half of the platforming section and relocating it to between the two p-balloon sections. I'm not sure that's the ideal solution either, though. There's also the possibility of multiple midpoints, but that might make them too frequent. I'm not trying to force a particular "solution," though; I just thought this was worth bringing up.

Oh, I get it now. That might help the level flow better and balance out the "concentration" a bit more, but I don't want to significantly alter the original idea. I might make a "what if" version just to check out how it changes things, though.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
I actually just wanted to hear your take on those things and make sure you were aware of them. I suspected those were the reasons, and I don't think you need to change them.

You did mention that there was more than one Pitchin' Chuck placed in such a location, though. If you'll notice my video, my intention with the majority of the Chucks is for the player to either ignore them or jump on them once and then move on instead of trying to deal with them individually. Since I kinda' fly right by them, I need you to point out specific examples so I can try to address this.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Ninji-tsu Crew, you've been replaced! :b

I went back and watched my playthrough of that level, and I envy the enemy variety. I dunno' why I didn't put koopa troopas in Amethyst Vein to begin with, but I'm not changing it out of respect to the original incarnation.
Originally posted by Mineyl
You did mention that there was more than one Pitchin' Chuck placed in such a location, though. If you'll notice my video, my intention with the majority of the Chucks is for the player to either ignore them or jump on them once and then move on instead of trying to deal with them individually. Since I kinda' fly right by them, I need you to point out specific examples so I can try to address this.

Actually, after playing it again, I realized they weren't as bad as I thought they were. For your reference, though, I meant the one below the chute to the p-switch (for the secret exit), and the one right after that. It turns out the latter's baseballs won't hurt you if you stand still, even as Big Mario. I guess that's not visibly obvious, though.

Played the new version, and I like the second balloon run a lot better. The end feels hectic, but not unfair.

That spot at the end of the first balloon run, where you removed a ninji? I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not that's now too close a shave for Big Mario (baseballs), but see what others say.

Looking good!

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Amethyst Vein 2.2 IPS

Changes in this version:

- Removed the one-tile width gaps on either side of the final Lava Lotus.
- The final Pitchin' Chuck in the first p-balloon section is now one tile higher.
- The pipe at the midpoint is now vertical due to a minor graphical glitch that results from entering a horizontal pipe while ballooned.
- A lot of tiny changes to positions of sprites in the second p-balloon section. Too many to list. Mostly to make certain sprites more relevant and stop the Lava Lotuses from not spawning their projectiles.

All right, I think I've juuuust about got it how I want it. Let me know what you think!

Also, sorry for deleting my last post and reposting it for the second time today. I can't bump my threads, so I hope the moderation understands.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
For your reference, though, I meant the one below the chute to the p-switch (for the secret exit), and the one right after that. It turns out the latter's baseballs won't hurt you if you stand still, even as Big Mario. I guess that's not visibly obvious, though.

Heh, they're a little weird, aren't they? Also, both of them can be eliminated effortlessly with fireballs from the safety of being one tile below them. :) DEVELOPER SECRETS.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Played the new version, and I like the second balloon run a lot better. The end feels hectic, but not unfair.

I was wondering how it would be for you all. If it's not unfair-feeling, then that's great, 'cause that's exactly how it was originally if you were super. I might still make slight alterations after I've replayed it a few more times.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
That spot at the end of the first balloon run, where you removed a ninji? I'm having a hard time deciding whether or not that's now too close a shave for Big Mario (baseballs), but see what others say.

I actually fixed that right after I uploaded 2.1. That Pitchin' Chuck is now one tile higher than it was before, and you'll see that in the final version. I definitely don't want that section to be so mean due to what you said about the midpoint.

EDIT: So I've gone back and played it more and I've decided that Chuck needs to be scooted right a tile or two. Bah. :b
It might just be the way I'm trying to play it, but I'm having a hard time finding a safe way to retreat from nabbing yoshi coin #4 in the second balloon section. It's hard to drop past both the baseballs and lotus fireballs, and if I wait patiently for a lull, I don't have enough time to grab the next balloon.

It also feels like the second balloon section has become a bit tougher in this version? Depending on how things line up, there are times when I'm cutting it very close or not quite making it. Apart from yoshi coin #4, the two trickiest spots feel like (a) the lotus flanked by ninjis during the first balloon, and (b) that last football chuck / lotus combo during the third balloon. It varies, though- sometimes I make it through with little trouble.

Finally, minor cases of not every lotus fireball appearing, but I'm not sure that's something you can do much about- at least, not without compromising the obstacle layout. I probably wouldn't worry about it too much.

Looks good otherwise! And you should probably get feedback from more people. It might just be my playstyle or something :b

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Post reserved for when I can manage to beat this, and posted as a reminder for me to beat your 2.2 version.

I'm having a harder time than I should because my emulator was being dumb.

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I wonder what a HFD opcode would do in ASM...
Amethyst Vein 2.3 IPS

Changes in this version:

- A lot of minor repositioning of things in the second p-balloon section.
- A ninji or two have been removed because of slowdown.
- A Pitchin' Chuck at the final p-balloon was replaced by a Puntin' Chuck.
- A p-balloon that was removed at some point between the middle and final p-balloons was reinserted.

Yep... Hopefully I've just about got it all ironed out, now. Sorry I keep making all these IPSes when the level is actually low priority on the fix-it list, but I'm all enthusiastic for some reason!

Originally posted by AxemJinx
It might just be the way I'm trying to play it, but I'm having a hard time finding a safe way to retreat from nabbing yoshi coin #4 in the second balloon section. It's hard to drop past both the baseballs and lotus fireballs, and if I wait patiently for a lull, I don't have enough time to grab the next balloon.

All right, I'll see what I can do here. I have to resist the urge to move the Pitchin' Chuck by the dragon coin horizontally, however, as it'll conflict with other projectile-spawning sprites. I'll probably reposition the lava lotus again.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
It also feels like the second balloon section has become a bit tougher in this version? Depending on how things line up, there are times when I'm cutting it very close or not quite making it. Apart from yoshi coin #4, the two trickiest spots feel like (a) the lotus flanked by ninjis during the first balloon, and (b) that last football chuck / lotus combo during the third balloon. It varies, though- sometimes I make it through with little trouble.

I swapped the position of the second lotus and first ninji so that the lotus would be less likely to not spawn projectiles, but I may flip them back. I have problems with that part, too, particularly the first ninji, as I sometimes get hit by it even when I'm pretty sure I should have landed on its head.

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Finally, minor cases of not every lotus fireball appearing, but I'm not sure that's something you can do much about- at least, not without compromising the obstacle layout. I probably wouldn't worry about it too much.

Yeah, it's unfortunate (and makes me kinda' envious after seeing some of the danmaku sprites made for SMW).

Originally posted by AxemJinx
Looks good otherwise! And you should probably get feedback from more people. It might just be my playstyle or something :b

Heh, I trust you a lot. RttC is one of the main inspirations of the things I make. If it's too hard for you, I know it's probably too hard for the average player.

Originally posted by TLMB
Post reserved for when I can manage to beat this, and posted as a reminder for me to beat your 2.2 version.

Hey, it's killed me far more times than I'd like to admit, and I used to be pretty awesome at it back when I made it... xD
Yeah, this one feels much better, and that extra balloon you added back in makes the middle section more friendly.

The only odd thing about that last football chuck is that the footballs bounce on one wall to the left, but two walls to the right, which is a little counter-intuitive because the distances on both sides look the same. I wonder if you should make the platform it's standing on one tile wide instead of three?

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Originally posted by AxemJinx
Yeah, this one feels much better, and that extra balloon you added back in makes the middle section more friendly.

The only odd thing about that last football chuck is that the footballs bounce on one wall to the left, but two walls to the right, which is a little counter-intuitive because the distances on both sides look the same. I wonder if you should make the platform it's standing on one tile wide instead of three?

I agree. The Puntin' Chucks are just weird because it IS the same distance. I'll play with it a little more.

Also, a funny idea hit me a little bit ago: what if I split this level up and have all the platforming segments as the normal exit and have the p-balloon sections for the secret exit? The level's on the long side, and I observed my average times at certain intervals:

Start of level: 600 remaining
To first p-balloon section: 140 in-game seconds
To midpoint: 189 in-game seconds
End of second p-ballon section: 259 in-game seconds
To finish: 320 in-game seconds

This might address what you were saying about the midpoint, but since I've toned down the p-balloon sections, I don't know if they'll be enough by themselves for the secret exit. Just a "what if."
Come to think of it, another thing to consider is that the secret exit currently leads to a dead end on the overworld. I wonder how much we're going to change the layout.

But yeah, that would be another alternative. There are plenty of ways you could structure the level, but I'm not sure which would be best without testing.

Judging by your stats, though, it doesn't look like clearing the first balloon section takes much time? If so, maybe the midpoint would be fine in its original location, especially if you think you've toned down both of the balloon sections. But then there's the section after the second balloon run to consider, which isn't exactly a cakewalk. Hmm.

Yeah, it's a tricky question :b

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Forum Index - Sunken Ghost Ship - Old Contests & Events - SMW Central Production 1.5 - Level 130 (World 8) - Amethyst Vein [Ported to actual base ROM, custom graphics applied (excluding BG)]

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